Crim Code

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So, currently there is a simple wanted state for a PC. If you are wanted, you are wanted, period. There's no middle ground, aside from which city you are wanted in.

Without recoding the crim code completely, couldn't we add additional states of wantedness (yes, I know that's not really a word).

You are wanted in Allanak would become:
You are wanted for common murder in Allanak.
You are wanted for highblood murder in Allanak.
You are wanted for theft in Allanak.
You are wanted for questioning in Allanak.
You are wanted for assault in Allanak.
You are wanted for breaking and entering in Allanak.
You are wanted for INSERT CRIME in Allanak.


Then create a NPC lethality response appropriate for each crime, perhaps a max number of chasers for each crime, a set time on prison for each crime.

[Barsook]

I dig this.

[Desertman]

So, currently there is a simple wanted state for a PC. If you are wanted, you are wanted, period. There's no middle ground, aside from which city you are wanted in.

Without recoding the crim code completely, couldn't we add additional states of wantedness (yes, I know that's not really a word).

You are wanted in Allanak would become:
You are wanted for common murder in Allanak.
You are wanted for highblood murder in Allanak.
You are wanted for theft in Allanak.
You are wanted for questioning in Allanak.
You are wanted for assault in Allanak.
You are wanted for breaking and entering in Allanak.
You are wanted for INSERT CRIME in Allanak.


Then create a NPC lethality response appropriate for each crime, perhaps a max number of chasers for each crime, a set time on prison for each crime.

As usual, I support this idea.

[Morgenes]

We keep track of the type of crime already, it would be a matter of what exactly we do with it.  For the record, here are the crimes we track:

'unknown'
'assault'
'theft'
'contraband'
'defiling'
'sales'
'treason'

[LittleLady]

I support fleshing out the code and having appropriate response for the different crimes. It would be pretty neat if you were detained/fined/etc. based on your crime rather than just as a general case. Maybe a few more 'types' of crime could be added to be supported by the code.

[Barsook]

We keep track of the type of crime already, it would be a matter of what exactly we do with it.  For the record, here are the crimes we track:

'unknown'
'assault'
'theft'
'contraband'
'defiling'
'sales'
'treason'

But that is hidden code only for the PC templar or the staff to see , right?

[Morgenes]

Right, we don't surface it to the criminal.  I'm informing so that suggestions could be made as to what additional crimes might we look at handling, and how might they be handled differently.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh. Didn't know that. Alright.

Here's a question. What parameters currently define what NPCs do? I want to suggest something that demands minimal coding and is the most streamlined. Do soldiers simply react to the PC's state, or is there any framework at all that already exists, and could be fleshed out to include options?

[Morgenes]

Right now the code is pretty simple, it reacts to if they are a criminal in the city.  There's not a lot of looking at what their crime is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Alright. I am off to the store - will respond in depth when I return.

Also, uh, Morg, thanks for the quick rapid responses.

Be right back.

[Brytta Léofa]

Right, we don't surface it to the criminal.  I'm informing so that suggestions could be made as to what additional crimes might we look at handling, and how might they be handled differently.

What about:
- aggravated assault: taking someone below 50% hp or so. Or assault with a weapon.
- murder: taking someone below 0 hp.

You could set up less-safe areas (Luir's bailey?) in which simple assault was tolerated, but murder wasn't.

[Jherlen]

For the below crimes, what if we simply changed it so that NPCs would "mercy on" in the case of resisting arrest? Being beaten and left for dead on the street is at least slightly better than being murderized by soldiers.

'theft'
'contraband'
'sales'

edit: another somewhat-related idea, equip NPC soldiers with clubs as well as swords? For less terrible crimes, they could just beat you unconcious with blunt instruments and leave you to lie, rather than carving you to pieces and making a huge mess.

[Narf]

edit: another somewhat-related idea, equip NPC soldiers with clubs as well as swords? For less terrible crimes, they could just beat you unconcious with blunt instruments and leave you to lie, rather than carving you to pieces and making a huge mess.

Actually I really like the 'just equip with clubs' combined with 'mercy on'. Particularly for Luirs and Red Storm, this would create a punishment other than death.

Of course not everyone would survive their brutal beating (clubs aren't a surefire way to knock someone out, sometimes you kill them) which would maintain the harshness of the setting.

Officially the punishment for lesser crimes would be being beaten within an inch of your life, but that's give or take an inch or two.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok, first, for parameters, I'd suggest the following:

• Crime: The Name of the Crime. Er, obvious, this one.
• Severity: How long you are wanted for this crime. This would range from 0 (meaning once you leave the room) to 1000 (for life)
• Personnel Response:The x nearest soldiers will respond to this crime. This basically checks to see how many NPC soldiers are chasing you, and if the max number for the crime is not reached, it will add more. The nearest soldiers are checked each room, so you can leave soldiers in the dust, but have more chase you if they can see you.
• Punishment:Death/Jail/Banishment/Mugging/Warning/Watching/Ignore. This should offer a pretty good range to play with.
• Lethality: Death/Unconsious/Mercy-On. Basically, the furthest punishment for resisting arrest.
• Sentence:The number of RL minutes a jail sentence is for.

[i love toilets]

Also, a limit for when npc Templars step in, for when you've successfully resisted arrest. Like maybe they don't do it if you're a thief or spice smuggler.

[Jherlen]

Banishment is cool in its own right. Keep track of how many times a PC has been caught in the last IC year for assault, theft, etc. Too many arrests? The next time the guards catch you, they haul you to the gates and toss you on your ass, and the gate guards aggro if they see you trying to re-enter. It would definitely fit the theme are how the cities are the worst places to live in Zalanthas besides everywhere else!

[Yummri]

And how do you want thm to respond for legal crimes? In the instance of someone having a contract or unseen crime. Killing someone from stealth with no witnesses in an alley. Or a short scuffle in said alley.

Guards magically knowing crime is happening better run over off my normal patrol route would be a bad thing.

Less lethal would be better. Allows for more player to player interaction rather than NPC guards just cutting criminals up into little ribbons for both the player soldiers and player criminals.

Make the guards sap?

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't like a lot of these ideas because they seem unrealistic.

Why would the militia put up with your shit more than once? Why wouldn't they just kill you?

[jstorrie]

Right, we don't surface it to the criminal.  I'm informing so that suggestions could be made as to what additional crimes might we look at handling, and how might they be handled differently.

Could 'assault' be split into more granular levels based on who the target was - based on their coded clan affiliation and coded citizenship status? And could the reaction by NPCs also check the coded affiliation/status of the aggressor? Because if so, that could be a way to finally have guards 'look the other way' if nobles or high-ranking militia/house employees assaulted unaffiliated commoners, or foreigners, or Rinthers/elves, etc.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't like a lot of these ideas because they seem unrealistic.

Why would the militia put up with your shit more than once? Why wouldn't they just kill you?

Because such a system is unworkable. If shoplifting is going to get you killed just as much as treason and rebellion, you may as well go straight to rebellion. This is part of the reason the Qin dynasty of China collapsed in under a hundred years. Athens rejected the equally lethal legal code of Draco (hence 'draconian') in even less time. Repression needs to be balanced so it doesn't inadvertently drive the plebs in to the streets.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't like a lot of these ideas because they seem unrealistic.

Why would the militia put up with your shit more than once? Why wouldn't they just kill you?

Because such a system is unworkable. If shoplifting is going to get you killed just as much as treason and rebellion, you may as well go straight to rebellion. This is part of the reason the Qin dynasty of China collapsed in under a hundred years. Athens rejected the equally lethal legal code of Draco (hence 'draconian') in even less time. Repression needs to be balanced so it doesn't inadvertently drive the plebs in to the streets.

I like the idea, but in zalanthas the majority is NOT stronger than the Sorcerer-King and his Templarate. Rebellions in the past did not go so well, and there's really no reason for militia to fear it for punishing one of the lower class.


Edit: That's not to say I think every thief should be killed, but more that repeat offenses should be, and usually are dealt with severely. If the system mirrored this that would be ideal.

[BadSkeelz]

I have to disagree. Rebellions and civil disturbances have occurred and been extremely damaging to their city-states. They may not have redefined the power structure, but they did get a lot of people on both sides killed. The Templarates (only a few hundred people, tops) and the Sorceror-Kings alone may be powerful enough to take on the rest of the city-state and win, but it's an open question whether there'd be any city-state left afterwards. It's in the interest of the ruling classes to not incite the other 99% of the populace to violence. Repression and Law is part of this ("Break His Law and you're going to have a bad time") but there is such a thing as being too strict.

Even on the level of individual soldiers, you can't just hack your way through a populace. It pisses off people on both sides of the power line: the lower classes because you're killing them, and the upper classes because you're pissing off the plebs.

[Twilight]

I would add:

'resist' a different crim flag for resisting arrest, as resisting arrest should have a harsher punishment (longer jail time)
'banishment' For banishing folks.  Gate guards won't let you past.  Guards in city will subdue you, take you to the gates (rather than jail) and throw you out of the city.
'harass' More for inventive PC Templars (they can set the type of crime, I hope?  If not, they should be able to).  Anyone that performs an otherwise crim-coded command on you is not crim coded themselves.  So you can be stolen from, attacked, etc., but the NPC soldiers won't necessarily do anything towards you.

[BadSkeelz]

'harass' More for inventive PC Templars (they can set the type of crime, I hope?  If not, they should be able to).  Anyone that performs an otherwise crim-coded command on you is not crim coded themselves.  So you can be stolen from, attacked, etc., but the NPC soldiers won't necessarily do anything towards you.

'Outlaw' wouldn't be a bad term for this, either. I like it.

[RogueGunslinger]

I have to disagree. Rebellions and civil disturbances have occurred and been extremely damaging to their city-states. They may not have redefined the power structure, but they did get a lot of people on both sides killed. The Templarates (only a few hundred people, tops) and the Sorceror-Kings alone may be powerful enough to take on the rest of the city-state and win, but it's an open question whether there'd be any city-state left afterwards. It's in the interest of the ruling classes to not incite the other 99% of the populace to violence. Repression and Law is part of this ("Break His Law and you're going to have a bad time") but there is such a thing as being too strict.

Even on the level of individual soldiers, you can't just hack your way through a populace. It pisses off people on both sides of the power line: the lower classes because you're killing them, and the upper classes because you're pissing off the plebs.

I really just don't see killing repeat offenders as being too strict, ICly. It's honestly what I think a commoner would expect to happen to them. Bur I digress.  There's always room for improvement in the crime code, that's for sure. I think the more it moves towards facilitating roleplay between players the better.