IC, OOC, and Sharing Past Experiences.

[RogueGunslinger]

Currently staff are reviewing their policy on sharing info on past characters. I don't think the community should go unheard on this topic.

There are a lot of problem created when one starts delving into the specifics of what goes on inside the game. It's quite obvious why staff are hesitant to allow ANY sort of discussion of IC events for a multitude of reason. The main reasons often being the disruptions of plots, or the dissemination of interesting IC info that can be "spoiled" for players by hearing about it before seeing it in game. As such there was always an unspoken and unofficial sort of guideline that you can't speak of characters until over a year has passed, or that if they were involved in plots that are still ongoing, not at all. But this was obviously an issue for some people on staff, and failed as an end-all-be-all sort of guideline.

The real problem here for staff is there's no way to easily regulate it without simply shutting down the idea altogether. Imagine the staff work required in going through and trying to figure out the specifics of not only is your character long dead enough, but anyone they knew, and any possible IC-only details their story might provide. This is why when doing submissions there's a lengthy process involved.

But this is a problem because we all love to share, and we get a profound amount of enjoyment from hearing the stories of others, and a seeming lack of desire for anyone to go through the submission process, or even read submissions. Also I believe by NOT allowing people to share their stories here, they will simply find other, less regulated ways to do it by telling friends who play, or loved ones, or using IM and chat functions. So what is the answer? Where's the middle ground? Is there any sort of solution to sharing stories? Do we have to strip all of the fun and detail from out past forays into the harsh Armageddon world in order to share them?

I suggest a sub-forum made specifically for MINOR spoilers that one can join if they meet a Karma requirement, but that's about the limit to my own ideas, and it obviously has its own problems. What are your thoughts?

[Jherlen]

But this is a problem because we all love to share, and we get a profound amount of enjoyment from hearing the stories of others, and a seeming lack of desire for anyone to go through the submission process, or even read submissions.

I find the new website layout makes finding and reading text-based submissions a little difficult. I think it's the way the page loads several submissions plus a preview of the first few lines of text; the full text is almost always cut off, which makes you need to click into the submission to read no matter what. And then when you click continue reading, longer logs and stories seem to load a bit slow. Maybe just showing submission titles and summaries, and then when you click one, loading just that one submission on its own page might be a better experience? Even better, maybe we could add a tagging system, so you could search all original submissions tagged as "Tuluk" or "bards"?

I bring this up because the original submissions are part of what makes Armageddon so awesome, and they're a great way to showcase past events in an "approved" way.

Beyond that I feel like the community can be trusted, by and large, to police itself when it comes to sensitive info on the GDB. As long as a policy is well known and understood, I think we can reasonably expect most responsible players to self-censor their posts. Staff are typically pretty good on moderation, too, when things do go too far. But the goal, in my mind, should be fostering a sense of community and fun on the forums, rather than trying to have discussions about the game while being absolutely sure any actual experiences from inside the game are scrubbed out of all posts.

I don't like the idea of a karma-restricted forum, because I think hearing vets' opinions and experiences can be illuminating and inspiring for new players, who stand to benefit the most in many ways. I can think of a few posters and GDB threads that literally changed the way I saw the game when I was new, and opened up tons of new possibilities in my mind. An "open" spoilers forum might be more okay, but I think the best solution is just to have clear lines on what's considered a spoiler and what isn't, and then let discussions go where they will.

[Eurynomos]

We are well aware of 'shutting down all talk of past PC's will just lead people to use iChat and AIM and other forms of communication to discuss this stuff, and it is a gateway drug to discussing current IC details and so on.

As I said, we are getting our papers together to present to the community, and you can feel free to discuss it. Ultimately, we are going to lay ground-rules to allow players to discuss past PC's, and put it in the hands of the community to moderate it themselves. We are just figuring out what those guidelines are.

[Refugee]

Cool.

[Drone]

I don't like the idea of a karma-restricted forum, because I think hearing vets' opinions and experiences can be illuminating and inspiring for new players, who stand to benefit the most in many ways. I can think of a few posters and GDB threads that literally changed the way I saw the game when I was new, and opened up tons of new possibilities in my mind. An "open" spoilers forum might be more okay, but I think the best solution is just to have clear lines on what's considered a spoiler and what isn't, and then let discussions go where they will.

As a newbie: this. The main website is great for giving me background information, histories, timelines, and lore, but I want to hear personal stories. Last night I was reading the Chronology page and wondering on more than one occasion "so, was this something that actually happened in-game, or is it background? Were these characters actual players, was this content player-created?"

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I always thought the year long rule was good enough, whether someone in your story was still alive or not, as long as that someone isn't you. I don't know that we need stricter moderation ... I worry that we obsess about this to the point of distraction.

[Nyr]

5 days ago:  a player posts a thread detailing their PC's exploits.  We moderate it and note that we've begun staff-side discussion about this sort of thing.
Yesterday:  a player posts a thread detailing several PC exploits.  We moderate it and note that we're still continuing staff-side discussion about this sort of thing.
Earlier today:  a players says that they really want to be involved in this discussion.  Staff response:  we're actually deciding what (if anything) will be up for discussion, stay tuned.
Later today:  the same player posts a thread reiterating that they want to be involved in the discussion, ignoring the previous staff response, and inviting other players to get involved.

Give us the benefit of the doubt.  Let us actually develop something before crying "foul!" and "unfair!" and railing against the inherent oppressiveness in the system.  Also, give us more time than 5 days near an American holiday.  The game has gone on for 20 years.  You can wait a few days or weeks.  Thank you.

[RogueGunslinger]

Who is that directed at?



Edit:This is for discussion among players. This is not me nagging you for a response.

[Nyr]

The playerbase?

[RogueGunslinger]

Ninja edit above.

[Nyr]

We're not soliciting player feedback for this at this time.  We have to talk it out on our side first.  Should we want feedback, we'll ask for it.

[Desertman]

RGS, Nyr isn't saying you can't have this discussion.

All he is saying is don't expect them to pay it any attention at this time, but feel free to have it, and in the future they may make a request for feedback and at that time they may come looking at this thread.

At least, I think that is what is being said.

[Jherlen]

If I may, I think this thread stems from the fact that for a long time the GDB has been operating under informal rules about discussing PC exploits that were fairly well understood (nothing newer than a year, don't give away secrets of clan docs or magick or hidden areas of the game, etc.) Posts that seemed to follow those rules were moderated, but no new rules have been announced because they're still under staff discussion. Which is fine, but it leaves players in a sort of limbo where we aren't really sure what is / isn't acceptable on the GDB right now and what threads or posts might be moderated.

Would it be possible to continue operating under the old status quo until new rules are finalized by staff? I'm all for giving the benefit to the doubt that staff will come up with clear guidelines, but maybe the old ones will hold up to alleviate ambiguity and allow staff the time you need?

[Wish]

5 days ago:  a player posts a thread detailing their PC's exploits.  We moderate it and note that we've begun staff-side discussion about this sort of thing.
Yesterday:  a player posts a thread detailing several PC exploits.  We moderate it and note that we're still continuing staff-side discussion about this sort of thing.
Earlier today:  a players says that they really want to be involved in this discussion.  Staff response:  we're actually deciding what (if anything) will be up for discussion, stay tuned.
Later today:  the same player posts a thread reiterating that they want to be involved in the discussion, ignoring the previous staff response, and inviting other players to get involved.

It might be a good idea to make a staff announcement that the discussion of past pcs and in game events is banned while you guys hash out a solution.  Previously, this has not been the case, which is probably why those threads were created in the first place.  You can look back through the forum history and find threads discussing past pcs and in game events that went on for quite awhile, some of which are as yet unlocked.  Random Armageddon Thoughts is a thread that also sees occasional discussion of past pcs from time to time - again breaking the new rule.  People finding out about a more restricted posting protocol after the fact via moderated threads is not going to be as effective as an announcement of the new rule.  Just my opinion.

[ShaLeah]

RGS, Nyr isn't saying you can't have this discussion.

All he is saying is don't expect them to pay it any attention at this time, but feel free to have it, and in the future they may make a request for feedback and at that time they may come looking at this thread.

At least, I think that is what is being said.

I think he's saying THAT and "Don't make me come down there." which should really be... yeah, well, you know. Keep it clean folks.




I haven't been to an APM (official or not) where people don't discuss the game and past characters. I think it's great. There are so many things that don't have closure on Arm, it's cool to hear things that happened, hear people's stories. Sometimes we really wish we wouldn't have asked, heh.

I think having a rule to NOT discuss it at all will make every single player a rule breaker. Not keen on that. I'd much rather have a means to discuss things that have happened within the forum. I think hearing the stories will help player retention too. Wow! That could happen to me! kind of thing.

* ShaLeah throws in ^me two-sids.

[ShaLeah]

RGS, Nyr isn't saying you can't have this discussion.

All he is saying is don't expect them to pay it any attention at this time, but feel free to have it, and in the future they may make a request for feedback and at that time they may come looking at this thread.

At least, I think that is what is being said.

I think he's saying THAT and "Don't make me come down there." which should really be... yeah, well, you know. Keep it clean folks.




I haven't been to an APM (official or not) where people don't discuss the game and past characters. I think it's great. There are so many things that don't have closure on Arm, it's cool to hear things that happened, hear people's stories. Sometimes we really wish we wouldn't have asked, heh.

I think having a rule to NOT discuss it at all will make every single player a rule breaker. Not keen on that. I'd much rather have a means to discuss things that have happened within the forum. I think hearing the stories will help player retention too. Wow! That could happen to me! kind of thing.

* ShaLeah throws in ^me two-sids.

As someone brand-new to Armageddon, I'd really, really enjoy hearing about other people's experiences with previous characters. Not because I want to know any potentially sensitive IC information (far from it, I want to be totally unspoiled), but because I want to hear about what's possible in this game world. I want to hear successes and failures, epic triumphs and awful defeats. Stories like these are what make me go "wow," and I want more of that.

My two cents, anyway. Also: sup board.

Hah!

* ShaLeah mindbends.

[DustMight]

It is so weird to have a game that you love so much but are unable to discuss the details of it with others who also love it.
While I understand the motivation of official and unofficial rules for (self) censoring, it strikes me as idealistic to think that
people who want talk about the game won't. It is also unenforceable.  What such official/unofficial rules end up doing is making one feel bad talking about something they love.

Much better to just trust that players are mature - but that's probably idealistic as well.

What to do!

[Nyr]

RGS, Nyr isn't saying you can't have this discussion.

All he is saying is don't expect them to pay it any attention at this time, but feel free to have it, and in the future they may make a request for feedback and at that time they may come looking at this thread.

At least, I think that is what is being said.

Nope.  I was saying there wasn't a real need to have this discussion because it is entirely too premature considering we've only barely started discussing it on the staff side.  Sure, I guess the rest is true, too.  Feel free to keep discussing what you think should be done.  It's going to land somewhere between 'allow everything' and 'allow nothing' and staff will want to find a solution that works for the game as a whole, so that's the solution staff will go with, and regardless of what we do (even if it is nothing), someone is going to be annoyed at what we do.

Would it be possible to continue operating under the old status quo until new rules are finalized by staff?

Define the old status quo.  Difficulty:  must not have been refuted by staff in the past 2-3 years on the GDB.

It might be a good idea to make a staff announcement that the discussion of past pcs and in game events is banned while you guys hash out a solution. 

It's not really banned.  No, we haven't gone through and locked a bunch of threads or moderated everything on the GDB because we are working on other stuff, like a policy for this sort of thing.  The other threads were noteworthy because a) the first one prompted the discussion and b) the second one was noticed because it was created specifically to discuss that sort of thing.  I guess if you don't want to have your new thread about old IC stuff moderated, don't make a new thread about old IC stuff after we've specifically said that we're working on that presently.

[Qzzrbl]

I always thought the year long rule was good enough, whether someone in your story was still alive or not, as long as that someone isn't you. I don't know that we need stricter moderation ... I worry that we obsess about this to the point of distraction.

T7DV has done a pretty great job at summing up my thoughts on the matter.

[Jherlen]

I guess if you don't want to have your new thread about old IC stuff moderated, don't make a new thread about old IC stuff after we've specifically said that we're working on that presently.

The thing is that these sorts of threads have popped up previously and not been moderated. Then recently a thread about a specific character from about five years ago was posted and moderated, but no new clear rules were communicated. The second thread was a bit diferent in that it wasn't about a specific named character, just events that happened to PCs in game. It was closer to the "Bragging" or "Shame" threads that were allowed previously, like the one Wish linked. It was moderated too, again without clarification. I was the author and I didn't really even intend to be a spoilers thread, unless we consider any discussion of something that happened in game at any time in the past to be a spoiler. And I don't think I've seen that stated quite so explicitly. So the only similarity was that you had two threads veering into discussion of IC events, one about events long ago, and the other lacking plenty of specifics. In the past, that wasn't enough for threads to be moderated, and now it seems to be -- which is fine, since staff have the final say -- but I wonder if the better time to start moderating is after the new policy is set and not before, which takes us from an "allow some stuff, somewhat subjectively" to a "allow nothing at all for now" restricted limbo phase. So you're right, the status quo was ambiguous, but at least it was a steady state. From now until whenever the staff can decide the new formal policy, we're all just sort of left confused.

Speaking more generally, I think by letting people share their cool or funny experiences in game, we help build OOC community. There are plenty of events that happened in game that I missed, or that I'd love to see from a different perspective, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Surely there's some sort of statute of limitations we could apply to these discussions, along with ground rules for topics that are always out of bounds (like magick, mindbenders, clan secrets, or where the waterfalls are.) We've already seen in this thread that players enjoy relating their stories to each other, and plenty of stories probably spoil or harm nothing to hear, but enrich our community and enjoyment of the game. I tend to feel like both recently-moderated threads fall into that category, too, but without knowing what a new policy or reasoning behind it will be, it's going to be difficult to judge where the line is.

[Harmless]

I never read any of the posts in the shame or bragging thread. Not to say I haven't enjoyed an occasional exchange of juicy gossip off the GDB. The GDB feels inappropriate for most sharing of stories to me. It is one-sided sharing, for one. It is impossible in most cases to predict if you're about to be spoiled until it is too late, since everyone seems to be unclear on what "common knowledge" is.

And then there's just the obnoxiousness of a thread where people are going to brag in the first place.

[Eyeball]

I'd love to be able to read old bios for characters that have been dead for, say, six years RL or longer.

For players who for some reason want to keep their bios private (although think of the number of staff who have had access anyhow, over the years, so how private have they really been), an option to set a privacy flag on their account could be provided.

Of course the account name wouldn't show up with the character.

[Voular]

WHAT HAVE I DONE!?

*runs away*

[Kronibas]

I haven't been to an APM (official or not) where people don't discuss the game and past characters.

Yeah... like multiple staffers and the boss of the entire game, at least in one instance.  Which was enriching.  Not jarring.

[Nyr]

From now until whenever the staff can decide the new formal policy, we're all just sort of left confused.

Err on the side of caution and don't make a new thread about stuff until we have something posted.  We're not coming down like a ton of bricks or anything--just don't create new threads detailing IC stuff until we've posted something saying what the deal is.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, that's reasonable.

[Twilight]

I haven't been to an APM (official or not) where people don't discuss the game and past characters.

Yeah... like multiple staffers and the boss of the entire game, at least in one instance.  Which was enriching.  Not jarring.

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.  

And is probably mostly irrelevant now as that one was 10+ years ago, with pretty much an entirely different staff and there was not the foresight to have all other APMs in the same location so that they would also fall under this rule.

I think that sharing serves an important purpose, beyond being entertaining and fostering a sense of community, in serving as inspiration.

[Kronibas]

I think that sharing serves an important purpose, beyond being entertaining and fostering a sense of community, in serving as inspiration.

You worded that nicely, and for sure.  Back then, I remember being dumbstruck - like, in slack-jawed awe - at old players (or stories from staff when they were players/avatars) telling stories that almost no one would be able to learn, ICly and likely even OOCly, too.  

I would really like to have something similar to this with current staff and players.  Nyr, I promise i won't punch you.

[AreteX]

The lack of closure is something that bothers me greatly with past exploits with Armageddon.

There are 2-3 characters that either vanished or were supposedly killed by something or someone but nobody knows who or what.  These have happened over a year ago(2-3) and I have always wondered.  These sorts of things I would truly love to discuss with someone in private without violating some sort of rules.

My opinion is this:  There are going to be people who are breaking the rules regardless of what they might be.  These people will use OOC communication to, well, communicate about the game and share their characters, information freely, and do really what they want.  There are also going to be people like myself who know things about currently living characters from past characters and do not use any of that information when playing that new character.  If we are somehow able to manage to do this without having horrible situations crop up all the time then I think I should probably be able to be like, "Hey, Amos, how DID you die?  Because, it has been KILLING me to know this for about three years now.  You don't even have to be specific, just a brief summary and I'll sleep better at night on those random days of Armageddon that cause me to think about the past."

I think we as a community can handle it.

[Delirium]

Where's that story about the sorcerer pretending to be somebody else being found out because somebody blabbed that they died? I think it's appropriate to this thread.

[Zoltan]

I think it's good to share, it's a game about telling stories after all. I just personally can't stand to hear present or recent IC events (which no one is arguing for, anyway) and speculations about code mechanics.

It's sort of sad how some things have fallen into the dustbin of Arm history due to the secrecy. Then again, letting some things fade away provides the staff and players with more freedom to retcon and re-imagine things, which I think is important in a game where we aren't adding new areas and cultures and so on willy-nilly. It would be a real shame if staff and players were forever constrained by something obscure that very few know about that some staffer put into the game back in 2002 or whatever. On the other hand, I think a lot of the goodness of Arm comes from the limitations and persistence involved in all of it. It's pretty complicated.

On a more personal note, excited discussions about Arm with my wife encouraged me to log in after a pretty lengthy hiatus. I still can't play the game enough for it to be the Ultimate in Fun as it used to be for me, but reminiscing about the good ol' days has always been a sure-fire way to get me to log back in and give it another go. The staff have taken good measures in the past few years to make the game more accessible for casually-playing older players like myself. I think completely squelching talk of past characters and IC events on the GDB would be harmful for the community and player retention. I'm sure there will be a middle ground found, and I'm sort of intrigued by a subforum for such stories/submissions, though not locked by karma.

A big problem is figuring out where that "this is too sekret, this is too IC, etc" line is. As someone already mentioned, some people's idea of common knowledge is very different than that of others.

[shadeoux]

Where's that story about the sorcerer pretending to be somebody else being found out because somebody blabbed that they died? I think it's appropriate to this thread.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I will see if I can find it.

[Riya OniSenshi]

Where's that story about the sorcerer pretending to be somebody else being found out because somebody blabbed that they died? I think it's appropriate to this thread.

I know exactly what you are talking about. I will see if I can find it.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,5208.0.html

[Drone]

I've spent some time reading through the submissions on the main page and some of what I'm finding -does- scratch that newbie's "I wonder what is possible in this game, and I want to see awesome stuff others have done in the past" itch. Unfortunately that's not the case with most of it. While the art is great and the other, world-building submissions (songs, poems, etc) are okay from a lore perspective, there seem to be very few stories in the forms of logs, or "I was Assassin So-And-So. This is how I murdered the head of a Great Merchant House and brought <xyz> to his/her knees."

[Barzalene]

Did you read my story about Kazyn? That was based on a real pc. Not mine, but a real pc all the same. In fact everything except the two main characters of my story happened to real pcs!

And now I feel creepy for hawking my work

But I guess not enough to erase the post!