Revamping the Way

[Harmless]

This thread is to carry on discussion from New Players about the Way. I make this topic mainly because I want to add my two suggestions.


1. a star-69 feature, where if someone contacts you, you can type >contact alone and try to contact them right back and send them a little message like, "What are you doing in my mind?" Doorbell ditching could still be possible, but you now have a huge risk of being busted and uncovered.

2. Delaying contact attempts before success. You start to contact someone, and you only succeed to make the connection 5-10 seconds or so later. Maybe this duration could be affected by their barrier and made longer. You only know if the attempt is successful or not after a delay, and while trying to contact someone (say, with a barrier), you get a chance at having those "You suffer from use of the Way" messages and take additional stun loss for contacting a difficult to contact person. When contacting someone in the same room with a hood, that attempt to "pierce the hood" is slowed and made more fair. It discourages the use of triggers.

In the interim of contact delay time, maybe >expel can reduce success. Maybe putting up a >barrier while you BEGIN to feel someone contacting you can allow you to prevent success or delay it further. Maybe you can >contact back, even before their connection is completed.

It all borders on cyberpunk hacking stuff, but hey, to be honest, that's fucking awesome in my book. And I always liked thinking about the similarities of the Way and hacking... so, I would think some of this could be discussed.

[Nyr]

If the Way for nonmundanes is the equivalent of global personal wireless communication, then cyberpunk hacking is for mindbenders.

So #1 is probably right out.

#2 seems a little bit confusing.  So contact is no longer an instant attempt, but something you start, something that takes a while to be attempted, and something that can be interrupted.  What does this add to the game, though?  If you're in the same room with someone with a hood and you can see them, why add an extra layer of difficulty to contact them?  They've already screwed up by being in the same room as you if they wish to be anonymous.

You can also already put up a barrier when you feel someone contact you.  Or expel them.

[evilcabbage]

Yes, you can actually barrier when contacted, and it will give the same message as if they were passed out when you attempt to send them a message. It's very nice. Preventative measures to avoid annoyance !

[Harmless]

Star-69 like powers for mindbenders only makes sense, it certainly seems like an advanced technique.

As for the delay, my thinking was that it makes the Way "weaker" or shittier for non-mindbenders, it creates a potential defense against sdesc sniffing, and online-status sniffing as well, if the contacter has no way of telling if his delayed contact attempts are failing every time because their target is offline or if the target is just using this new delay as a means to repeatedly counter every contact attempt. Adding a delay also adds another way for wisdom and higher contact skill to make a difference in the efficiency of using the Way, potentially. It may also add another means for making long-distance connections more difficult; the delay could be increased if the target is in a different area of the Known world as you.

Again, putting up a barrier after contacted is nice... but the person still knows that A.) you're online and B.) your sdesc.

Because I don't want this thread to only have my ideas, I'll also attempt to paste other people's ideas from the other thread.

I think PCs should be able to recieve Way messages when they're offline (unless you log out with a barrier up, maybe.) When you log in again, you could use a "recall" command to see the messages people sent you while you were logged out. I think this elegantly solves the "We can kill Talia in secret without her being able to tell her friends because they're offline!" problem, cos she still will be able to get a message through. It also eliminates the potential for being able to know someone is on/offline via the Way, cos they'll always be contactable.

I wish Staff could come up with some awesome IC reason why the Way would stop functioning for most for a certain period of time, like a month or two, just to see what the game could be WITHOUT.. If everyone loves the new way-less game, then keep it that way, if everyone hates it, then just terminate the IC reason with another IC reason..

Perhaps when you contact someone, they get a message 'you feel -sdesc- trying to make contact with your mind'. You can only send/receive messages when -both- sides contact each other.

This would make Barrier almost useless, however.

(versus just buffing Barrier)

I think even master level contact should have a bit higher of a failure rating against master level barrier. Seriously, can shatter those barriers way too easy, for a rather insignificant cost compared to the cost of the barrier. Considering the amount of time that can be invested practicing with the initial stunpoint cost, well, it's quite a time sink, well, maybe if you usually end up with poor wisdom like I do.

Also, I would like it if expel were to able to be practiced without having to kick someone from your mind, just maybe not as quickly. I must admit, I've never gotten expel to be high enough to be usable. Too much training in ruf circle, boxing, sparring, wrestling, not enough in kicking that gicker or mindworm out of your skull, if it's even possible with the latter which I wouldn't know because ow, my brain. Maybe just making it so you start with expel would be interesting.

[QuillDipper]

I like the recall idea, not only to prevent the whole offline-checking thing, but also because it makes transmitting messages to off-peak players a lot easier.

[Patuk]

I think giving people apprentice barrier to go along with apprentice contact might go a long ways to fix some of the largest slights, too. Training barrier both involves ridiculous amounts of stun going to waste and an immensely long amount of time, now.

[evilcabbage]

Contact used to start at novice just like barrier, and people complained about it knocking folks out too often. I never really saw the issue with it, myself. As you become more skilled, it will become easier. Just train it. It doesn't take -that- long.

[Nyr]

It seems like a way to get around the fact that if you don't want to be bothered by other PCs or NPCs, you have to have barrier up already and win the various code contests involved.  With your suggestion, the code contest is delayed, granting an advantage to someone that doesn't want to be arsed to keep their barrier up in advance (changing barrier from an active ability to one you can simply trigger when you get contacted).  Introducing a delay discourages the use of triggers on the contact-er's end and encourages them on the contact-ee's end.  I see no real benefit here that isn't just an excuse to nerf contact.  If some is engaged in sdesc sniffing abuse, they can be reported properly and we can handle that.  We already coded it so you have to be in the same room as someone in order to contact them by their hooded/masked/temporary short description keywords, and at this time we think that's a pretty good tradeoff.

I think PCs should be able to recieve Way messages when they're offline (unless you log out with a barrier up, maybe.) When you log in again, you could use a "recall" command to see the messages people sent you while you were logged out. I think this elegantly solves the "We can kill Talia in secret without her being able to tell her friends because they're offline!" problem, cos she still will be able to get a message through. It also eliminates the potential for being able to know someone is on/offline via the Way, cos they'll always be contactable.

If the "Talia can't tell her friends because they're offline" problem is truly a problem then we can look at it.  I don't really agree that it is.  As for being able to know someone is on/offline via the Way, if they successfully barrier, they look the same as if they're offline. 

I wish Staff could come up with some awesome IC reason why the Way would stop functioning for most for a certain period of time, like a month or two, just to see what the game could be WITHOUT.. If everyone loves the new way-less game, then keep it that way, if everyone hates it, then just terminate the IC reason with another IC reason..

We probably could.  Since this is a plot-based idea thing I don't know how we would ever say we're going to do it.

Perhaps when you contact someone, they get a message 'you feel -sdesc- trying to make contact with your mind'. You can only send/receive messages when -both- sides contact each other.

This would make Barrier almost useless, however.

(versus just buffing Barrier)

That seems needlessly complicated, not sure what it is meant to solve.

I think even master level contact should have a bit higher of a failure rating against master level barrier. Seriously, can shatter those barriers way too easy, for a rather insignificant cost compared to the cost of the barrier. Considering the amount of time that can be invested practicing with the initial stunpoint cost, well, it's quite a time sink, well, maybe if you usually end up with poor wisdom like I do.

Also, I would like it if expel were to able to be practiced without having to kick someone from your mind, just maybe not as quickly. I must admit, I've never gotten expel to be high enough to be usable. Too much training in ruf circle, boxing, sparring, wrestling, not enough in kicking that gicker or mindworm out of your skull, if it's even possible with the latter which I wouldn't know because ow, my brain. Maybe just making it so you start with expel would be interesting.

The first part is anecdotal and a bit wrong.  I really doubt we would ever make it so that expel can be practiced without expelling someone.  If expel isn't high enough to be usable that seems like an issue that can be resolved in-game.

[evilcabbage]

An issue that can be resolved at the expense of other people, which if your character is so inclined, can be quite a bit of fun.

[Harmless]

It seems like a way to get around the fact that if you don't want to be bothered by other PCs or NPCs, you have to have barrier up already and win the various code contests involved.  With your suggestion, the code contest is delayed, granting an advantage to someone that doesn't want to be arsed to keep their barrier up in advance (changing barrier from an active ability to one you can simply trigger when you get contacted).  Introducing a delay discourages the use of triggers on the contact-er's end and encourages them on the contact-ee's end.  I see no real benefit here that isn't just an excuse to nerf contact.  If some is engaged in sdesc sniffing abuse, they can be reported properly and we can handle that.  We already coded it so you have to be in the same room as someone in order to contact them by their hooded/masked/temporary short description keywords, and at this time we think that's a pretty good tradeoff.

Hm. Well analyzed, I can't really see anything to dispute in here. Thanks for the quick reply Nyr.

[Narf]

I think giving people apprentice barrier to go along with apprentice contact might go a long ways to fix some of the largest slights, too. Training barrier both involves ridiculous amounts of stun going to waste and an immensely long amount of time, now.

Mileage will vary. Barrier's been the first or second skill I've mastered on my last two characters.

I imagine they set it to go up slowly because you can train it at almost anytime you feel the urge. Most skills you can only practice in certain situations.

[Drayab]

Just make barrier harder to get through.

[Cutthroat]

I kinda like the idea of delaying Way messages instead of the message being delivered instantaneously. Make the delay a function of the room distance between the sender and recipient. Longer distance = more delay. It would encourage more face-to-face meetings (or for those able to write, more written correspondences) and make it more dangerous to be further from civilization. It's not a must-have feature but I think it would be a more interesting system than the one that exists now.

[evilcabbage]

I kinda like the idea of delaying Way messages instead of the message being delivered instantaneously. Make the delay a function of the room distance between the sender and recipient. Longer distance = more delay. It would encourage more face-to-face meetings (or for those able to write, more written correspondences) and make it more dangerous to be further from civilization. It's not a must-have feature but I think it would be a more interesting system than the one that exists now.

No, because a wise person would use that to judge the distance and figure out where a person was. Hell no. It's like a sonar message.

[Cutthroat]

You'd never see how long it takes to get the message through, just that you sent it. (This is true even with how things are worded right now: You're told you sent the message, not that they received it.) And the only thing you can use to judge distance is how long it takes for the recipient to reply, which they can easily delay if they are trying to pretend they are far away but are actually close by. And if they want to pretend they're close by when they're actually far away, there are ways of doing that too. Not seeing the problem here.

[Refugee]

There seems to be some inequity.  I think probably because people can just spam contact until they break through.  Once your contact skill is high it doesn't cost you much in stun.

I've a question about the definition of 'sdesc sniffing'.  I've seen many times people have a name and use the way to get a description (usually of someone who is being hunted for some reason).  I thought this was 'sdesc sniffing' and have avoided doing it, but I do see it done often and openly enough to wonder if it's permitted.  This seems like a good time to ask!

[Desertman]

The blue-eyed man contacts your mind.

This is all I want.

This is all I want in the world.

It would solve every problem with The Way I have ever encountered.

[evilcabbage]

I like the mystery.

[Desertman]

I like the mystery.

Cabbage, go be a leafy vegetable somewhere else. We do not need you in this salad.

[evilcabbage]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

[Desertman]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I can't tell if you are trolling, or if you really enjoy people using the Way to sniff your online status and your sdesc.

You seem like a strange enough/unique enough dude to maybe actually like that.

In that case, I will agree to disagree with you.

[BleakOne]

Perhaps when you contact someone, they get a message 'you feel -sdesc- trying to make contact with your mind'. You can only send/receive messages when -both- sides contact each other.

This would make Barrier almost useless, however.

(versus just buffing Barrier)

That seems needlessly complicated, not sure what it is meant to solve.

Yeah, that was my idea, and it was just a random idea out of the blue.

[evilcabbage]

We do need me in this salad because this affects me the same as it affects everybody else. I don't want the Way changed. It's good the way it is. It has enough mystery to be nice and effective, when someone jumps into my mind and promptly jumps out.

I can't tell if you are trolling, or if you really enjoy people using the Way to sniff your online status and your sdesc.

You seem like a strange enough/unique enough dude to maybe actually like that.

In that case, I will agree to disagree with you.

I enjoy it because it seems like they're sniffing me out just to see if I'm online, but I kind of hate it too. What I REALLY love is when people contact, then cease, then contact again and go "Are you blah blah blah?" and then I can go "No, who the hell is this?"

[Yummri]

Yeah I'm confused about sdesc sniffing too. how is it an abuse to contact a hooded figre to try and figure out who it was. But not get a name and use that to find their sdesc out.

Then to use that to track their online time and that of any of their friends/allies to avoid the risk of actively hunting them regardless. Its seems to me a really cheap way to go about things that takes away a lot of the risk involved.

So now you and your friends now Amos is online because you just wayed him and continuing to do so allows you to track a playtime. After doing that you could do that to any of the people you know Amos is friends with and do the same to decide the best time to attack him with your cluster of friend when he can't be helped.

But at no time does Amos know who is the one tracking him because he can't return the contact and doesn't know who just did that to begin with.
It seems to me a new player an entirely counter productive exercise for a game that is supposed to be harsh and risky for all players who want to play. If you are hunting a character, be prepared to do that when their friends and others may catch you doing it or don't.

I think allowing a person being contacted to see who is doing the contacting is a very good idea. Simply because it allows you to know who is doing it for the purpose of reporting them for sdesc sniffing. Because how can you report someone if you don't know who is doing it to begin with.

Some clarification on sdesc sniffing is needed and if the above does not count as such then I think it needs to be rethought. Because this action is taking away a lot more than it is adding.

The way in general seems fine to me. Apart fromt he above I've not had chance to play with much more than just simply contacting people. But I can see how the way would make it really difficult for spies etc. How do you listen into a convocation if all the plotting can be done in the minds of the conspirators?

[evilcabbage]

Trust me, Amos has more friends than you know about. They just don't show themselves publically ever.