Allanaki City Elves

[path]

Thanas sold me on elves too. Sounds like fun!

[Armaddict]

If you play a city-elf based on the information collected here:

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

You will succeed. Just a wealth of information on what they are and what they're all about. This also points to where I am coming from in regards to starting your own group. I am not certain why anything needs to change outside of these documents?

I'm kind of wondering if the fact that they weren't moved over means the staff no longer supports those documents.  ASK THE STAFF HERE I COME.

[long live miley cyrus]

Elves are so awesome... I just wish they were more playable, you know?

I suppose that's like saying the sun rises every day but seriously, if they had two big city clans in one city, three in the other, maybe the three is in Tuluk because the unique nature of crime and politics there would make it more interesting, and you could choose to be born into these clans instead of having to app for a role, since no matter how easy apping becomes, automating it is going to bring in noticeably more people.

Just to play a race that simultaneously understands the world thinks of them as dirt while being xenophobic and proud, a race that is way too comfortable with theft-crime and is probably more familiar with crime and hardship than a human of the same economic status, who sees loyalty completely differently, and maybe you're in one of these clans as something you couldn't be before the change (hunter, travel-capable mercenary, travel-capable merchant, a diplomat to nobles and Templars, a spy on other elves), and you can get some clan v. clan action that's more like gang wars than it is subtle maneuverings and politics, it would have that too. But I imagine elves don't have the same restraint for expected behavior in public that humans in their own fancy clans do... I mean you know what I mean? The way that elf clans would clash versus human clans. Not necessarily by strict adherence to realism but by how people generally would choose to act them out. I can't be the only person who wants to see that.

[IntuitiveApathy]

How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?

I hope we can find more exceptions to every bit of documentation, because they clearly point out how wrong it is.  Yes, that is sarcasm.  As a general rule of the elven mentality, the description stands. EDITED TO ADD HERE:  Likewise...this doesn't disprove the documentation.  This is a point where the elven mentality actually fucks them.  This...would actually be an excellent personal plot in line with murder, corruption, and betrayal.  That elf would be seriously damaged after this occurred.

Armaddict - the reason why we are discussing these things is because they are not elaborated upon in the current elven documentation.  Since it's not indicated in the docs, by our discussion of it, we are simply trying to settle upon how players should be playing when encountering these situations - these thought experiments could be real situations PCs encounter in the game.  Certainly the docs can't and won't specify every potential situation someone could encounter, but we're talking about situations which seem to run counter to something you're asserting which is not actually in the docs (namely that tribe-level trust is actually equivalent to tested-trust), hence our discussion in the first place.

I obviously have a different opinion than you or Spider do on some of these things.  The old documentation which you have provided a link to is somewhat informative, but you'll notice that the staff took some parts of them and not others when forming the new docs through the revamp.  Hopefully, by our discussion, it will prompt them to include additional official documentation (either by adding to the current docs, or perhaps even reusing some of the old docs) to cover these things off so that our opinions won't necessarily matter any longer.  It's either that or they never do and in that situation I presume then that they would leave it open to interpretation and a spectrum of play by players, so that neither of our opinions become incorrect.  You also pointed out that some of the old elven documentation is actually from player perspective which was officially adopted by staff - those presumably arose from discussions such as these.


From the current docs:

Elves also naturally trust their tribemates. They know that every elf in their tribe feels the same loyalty they do - so they have a strong ingrained trust and even reliance upon all of their kin. To act in a harmful way against a tribemate is an unthinkable act in an elven tribe. But a caveat - some tribal cultures are harsh, what is "harmful" to you or me may not be considered serious harm to them; and also, if one elf is seen to be acting in a way that harms the tribe as a whole, to be harmful to that individual (to protect the tribe) is absolutely warranted. As a general rule, a harmful act against a tribemate would be one that betrays them to an outsider - this would be the ultimate crime of an elven nation.

Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust.

Again, to reiterate what I've said previously, to me this leaves open the distinction between a tribal-level of trust and outsider tested-trust.  Is that dwarf you've tested really to be considered equivalent to others of your elf's elven nation?  Does your elf really think that the dwarf, even though they've passed the elf's tests will forever be as loyal as another elf would, ignoring what they would know as dwarven nature?  Maybe there is a further distinction that we could make here between elves already in a tribe and solo elves and the trust they will grant to outsiders as well, but that's beside the point.  I feel that especially as elves have a higher wisdom than other races and their natural inclination to paranoia vs. trust that they'd be keenly aware of the traits of other races as compared to their own regarding their trustworthiness.  If we are pulling from the old docs, perhaps elves might be too proud to even want to place trust in a non-elf at all?  As I've also pointed out, racism is an important facet of Armageddon play - it's inherent to all races and all races practice it against all other races.  Note that I've never said that an outsider cannot be trusted on some level so long as tests have been passed - just that I don't feel they should be afforded the same level as tribal trust, or trust granted to an outsider that is an elf.

Consider also this from the current docs on elven racism (and note how it mentions how the tribal mentality plays into it):

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with.

As for the 'probably', you need to remember this was officially on the webpage.  The 'probably' was the editorial note of the player, and so that 'probably' stands very strongly.  The point of the matter is, a tested individual is very highly trusted, 'probably' to the point of not being in the tribe, but being treated as if they were a tribe member.  Unless, of course, you have a tribe, in which case it remains individual rather than a tribe contact; other tribemates would not have the same association.  This is why we were saying the tribal mentality can remain intact without an actual full on tribe; for a tribeless elf, these tested people -are- their tribe, even though it's not a full on tribal unit.  They interact with these people the same way, and thus it remains in game through true elven roleplay without tribes to sink into.

As a point aside, I think Thanas was actually an imm if I recall.  But you're putting your speculation in Thanas' mouth here regarding his qualification without support.  If Thanas were still around, it'd be interesting to hear from him his thoughts on that qualification.

Let's go back to another point I made previously as well - can an elf form a tribe with non-elves?  This is presumably the end point of the line of logic you're taking, and it'd require presumably the 'organic' testing of the other tribe members-to-be between themselves as well.  But let's say they 'organically' pass these tests as amongst themselves (or enough so to your elf's satisfaction?).  If the answer now is, yes this should now be considered the elf's tribe which consists of non-elves, then I can potentially accept the equivalency of tested trust to tribal trust.  Keep in mind before you answer the lines from the current docs I quoted, as well as the points I've made above as well.

From 'The Elven Persona':

What Does Not Being a Tribal Elf Mean?

While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

This is interesting, and thinking further on this, I'm beginning to see how a solo elf might consider themselves a tribe of one and thus not need to seek out any bonds with anyone else that might lead them to joining a tribe or forming a new tribe.

[RogueGunslinger]

That is a quality post and this is a beautiful conversation. Top form my good friends, top form.

[number13]

It should be pointed out there are no c-elves in Dark Sun.  There are a few merchant elves deposited by their tribes in a city, who ply their trade for the benefit of their tribe for a few years.  Even the tribes that specialize in the shadow arts do so over a wide range of cities.  They aren't locked into a small ghetto, and haven't lost their desert legs.

The Tuluki and Allanaki elven clans clearly have settled in their respective city-states, concentrated in the Warrens and Rinth respectively. Or have they...?

A retcon that could be made would be to declare that each of the "tribes" within the city-states is actually just a clan within a larger d-elf tribe.  Just as an example, the Bejewelled Hand might be a clan within the Sun Runners. The idea here is that even if there aren't other Bejewelled Hand PCs, you've still probably got tribe mates to interact with in the Sun Runners.  (Or, for people who hate OOC retcons, there could be some IC events where a c-elf tribe marries itself to a d-elf tribe, becoming a clan within that tribe.)

Another addition, could be a half-caste status within a c-elf tribe (which already sort of exists for some of the Rinthi tribes, I believe, and probably the Bejewelled Hand as well.)  A new PC c-elf could be automatically ~associated~ with a city tribe, depending on his start location (which would be constrained to either Tuluk or Allanak), but is not yet a full and proven member.  The newbie elf is from some off-shoot cousin clan, or has yet to succeed at the rites of adulthood. Something like that.

Just like the Guild, sometimes a c-elf tribe will run dry of full members, and staff can step in to promote worthwhile PC c-elves from the ranks.

A new c-elf would then have something akin to a tribe, with a clear identity, but the tribes themselves wouldn't be automatic "I win" buttons for 1-day old PCs, nor would a functioning PC group be saddled with having to treat a newbie who doesn't understand the tribe's character and traditions as a full member of the tribe until that character (and that player) has had time to learn the role.  

Speaking from experience, my one and only d-elf was a member of the Red Fangs, and I just shitted up the place with my ignorance. They should have killed my character, really, but were practically forced to treat him like a charmingly stupid brother instead. Since c-elf is a 0-karma pick without the staff oversight of d-elf tribals, full association to a tribe should be earned, but at the same time, an elf without a coded tribe is just too pathetic. When some round-eared Outsider asks, "What tribe you in?" the answer a real elf gives should never be, "I am tribeless."

[gfair]

"All elves have a cultural bent toward [...] wandering [...]"

This one of late has caused me to ask: What is the scope of the desire of city-elves to wander?  Are they just restless and always taking walks?  Or will they wander fom the warrens to the commons and back only?  Or are City Elves even not afraid to leave city gates and "The Known" is their scope for possible destinations?


Part of this harkens back to differences between city and desert elves.  Another part of this, the main thought, is that if Elves wander enough, why do we draw distinction between the two species.


Unrelated thought: Perhaps this (and trust issues) is part of the instinctual bi-polar nature of half-elf socialization and acclimatization.

[FantasyWriter]

I belive they would "wander" enough to keep a good knowledge/assessment of whatever their comfort zone might happen to be (and possibly always pushing the borders thereof), whether that's a city street, the whole of the Pah, or half the Known world.

[Armaddict]

It should be pointed out there are no c-elves in Dark Sun.  There are a few merchant elves deposited by their tribes in a city, who ply their trade for the benefit of their tribe for a few years.  Even the tribes that specialize in the shadow arts do so over a wide range of cities.  They aren't locked into a small ghetto, and haven't lost their desert legs.

The Tuluki and Allanaki elven clans clearly have settled in their respective city-states, concentrated in the Warrens and Rinth respectively. Or have they...?

A retcon that could be made would be to declare that each of the "tribes" within the city-states is actually just a clan within a larger d-elf tribe.  Just as an example, the Bejewelled Hand might be a clan within the Sun Runners. The idea here is that even if there aren't other Bejewelled Hand PCs, you've still probably got tribe mates to interact with in the Sun Runners.  (Or, for people who hate OOC retcons, there could be some IC events where a c-elf tribe marries itself to a d-elf tribe, becoming a clan within that tribe.)

Another addition, could be a half-caste status within a c-elf tribe (which already sort of exists for some of the Rinthi tribes, I believe, and probably the Bejewelled Hand as well.)  A new PC c-elf could be automatically ~associated~ with a city tribe, depending on his start location (which would be constrained to either Tuluk or Allanak), but is not yet a full and proven member.  The newbie elf is from some off-shoot cousin clan, or has yet to succeed at the rites of adulthood. Something like that.

Just like the Guild, sometimes a c-elf tribe will run dry of full members, and staff can step in to promote worthwhile PC c-elves from the ranks.

A new c-elf would then have something akin to a tribe, with a clear identity, but the tribes themselves wouldn't be automatic "I win" buttons for 1-day old PCs, nor would a functioning PC group be saddled with having to treat a newbie who doesn't understand the tribe's character and traditions as a full member of the tribe until that character (and that player) has had time to learn the role.  

Speaking from experience, my one and only d-elf was a member of the Red Fangs, and I just shitted up the place with my ignorance. They should have killed my character, really, but were practically forced to treat him like a charmingly stupid brother instead. Since c-elf is a 0-karma pick without the staff oversight of d-elf tribals, full association to a tribe should be earned, but at the same time, an elf without a coded tribe is just too pathetic. When some round-eared Outsider asks, "What tribe you in?" the answer a real elf gives should never be, "I am tribeless."

This would be interesting.  A nice side effect being elven tribes out in the wastes going to war, and eastside of the labyrinth erupting into volatility as well.  Altogether, I think this would actually be a pretty sweet change aside from some lingering nostalgic pieces of city elves for me.

I'm not sure, codewise, that the change would be supported, though.  It mixes things around quite a bit, more than just a simple change.


IntuitiveApathy- That was a good post.  I liked reading it,.  At this point I think we're kind of nitpicking, but I just wanted to reiterate that I'm not anti-tribe or anti-clan, I just think that the assertion that elves are unplayable without them is a bad point to make.  It jips people of the mentality and what is very fun to play, if you let yourself get into the groove of it.
  As a note, I'm not asserting that an elf in a tribe will elevate non-tribe members to the same level as their tribemates.  I -am- asserting that a tribeless elf will find the same relationships as a tribe with those they come to trust; where they are distinctly tribal in nature, those bonds will just be filled with what they can get, but they will choose it carefully.  They will end up with 'tribal' relationships even though it is outside of a tribe.  To them, as Spider was talking about, the difference isn't there.  It's only once the tribe exists that there is a jump upwards into natural relationships.  Both scenarios grant great roleplay opportunities.

I belive they would "wander" enough to keep a good knowledge/assessment of whatever their comfort zone might happen to be (and possibly always pushing the borders thereof), whether that's a city street, the whole of the Pah, or half the Known world.

My thought on this (as I also was thinking about this part of the old documentation) is that even though city elves can't be rangers...maybe they are city rangers racially instead of by class.  A ranger wanders the wastes looking for prey; so does the city elf.  A ranger is adept at wilderness survival;elves are the 'survivor' race of the city.  The difference being that 'prey' for a ranger is animals to kill, and for city elves, 'prey' is anyone to con.  The ranger wanders the wastes with their wanderlust in search of prey; the elf wanders their city in search of prey as well, with that difference of prey in mind.

Kind of my thought on it, not sure if that meshes well in other people's head.

[FantasyWriter]

That's a great interpretation of the docs, I think, Armaddict.
I've never thought of it that way, but it seeems pretty spot on in my opinion.

[Spider]

I think it's important that you understand how strict the elven loyalty tests are supposed to be, and a proper result would transcend race.

I think you and I will just have to disagree here - not on the seriousness of the testing itself, but how the trust level would automatically transcend race to equate to tribe-level trust, even at it's end point.  Note though, even in Armaddict's link to the old elven RP doc Thanas qualifies the elf's tribe-level trusting of the end-tested human with "probably", and goes on to mention how the rest of the tribe may not trust the human (though presumably that might apply just as well to any tested non-tribe outsider human or not - Thanas doesn't specify).

It might help me understand your point of view though, if you could expand further on your thought here:

It doesn't make sense for an individual to pass those tests just to plan to betray the elf later.

I can say that I've personally been a part of storylines in game, where this sort of level of betrayal played out right in the gameworld? 

How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?


As for what you mention here:

Another point, tribeless elves do not go out looking to form a new tribe, formation of a tribe(companionship) is done organically simply by living.  Tribeless elves are incredibly arrogant and proud of their tribeless self. They wouldn't really be actively looking to be a part of one, unless of course outside influences require it.

I'd be interested in reading about that if it was part of the old docs, actually as I'm interested to see where that viewpoint arises from.  But to me, it wouldn't make sense that if the tribe mentality is so essential to elven thought, that they'd be incredibly proud to not be in one and be self-sufficient.  But maybe that's just me, and I'm not staff, obviously.

While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

Taken from the old docs.  Obviously tests of loyalty still apply, but like I said, it wouldn't be a goal of the tribeless elf.

To your point about the dwarven focus. I did note that the elf would certainly reassess the situation if the companion would do something not for the good of the tribe.

Most everything I spoke of was from the perspective of a tribeless elf, as I feel that is most pertinent to the conversation going on in this thread.  Perhaps I should have specified that earlier.

Of course a tribe wouldn't automatically trust the companionship of a singular member and an outsider, the whole tribe would have to test that individual.  There are current in game tribes that do accept outside races in some capacity, those are considered members of the tribe. You will have to find that out IG or by reading specific clan documentation.

I'll take this moment to urge you to consider a human on human relationship IG. Imagine that they go through the exact process of the elven tests, but call it general life experiences with a companion instead. What do these experiences mean to this partnership? Imagine someone risking their life for you after years of always being there in a way that benefits your life. It is likely you would put your trust into that person, believe that person to be an extension of yourself, and you to their self.  The reason that "elven tests of loyalty" is even a coined term, is because of the natural distrust elves have for outsiders.

We often see irl that people can be instantly persuaded of another's good intention.  Humans are often capable of trusting too easily.  Elves are not capable of doing so.  Thus we have the tests.

To the community as a whole.  Elven roleplay isn't all that difficult. To me, elves are the most rational race.  Being prone to thievery does not mean that they are all spam stealing pickpockets. It just means that if given an opportunity to take something the elf will seriously consider doing so.   There is always a choice for an elf.

You can play an elf in today's game as a tribeless elf and have that exact intended experience of being an elf.  Trust noone, the tribe is self, and maybe one day your elf will have a companion to rely on.

[long live miley cyrus]

In my mind, both sides of the race v. loyalty debate are correct--- the elf will always know that the human at least considers themselves superior, that the dwarf may unintentionally (or intentionally due to not being an elf) betray them one day, that half-giants will be friends with anybody and might betray that one elf friend to keep two other human friends, for example if they're a soldier and the elf becomes wanted, and the human soldiers know to use social ladder thinking against the giant.

I think that elves understand that friends of other races are inherently different (flawed, inferior, dumber etc.) but this doesn't stop them from pouring their heart and soul into the relationship. This is because I think that elves can't psychologically hold back on that point, of course unless the situation comes up that was pointed out earlier, where an individual of the tribe who threatens the tribe is dealt with as necessary in spite of the group loyalty, especially if only one elf is actually bonded to the person. As far as I can tell, there are no half-assed true friendships between interracial friends on the elf's side. Racism would certainly exist, but it wouldn't make the elf care less.

And if the elf is really racist, I would perfectly expect them to not put forth the significant effort and vulnerability to test a dirty, breeds-like-rabbits human all they know how to do is fight and dig in the dirt, or that simple-minded living rock that all he can think about is making the perfect fork, with literally no other talents since that's all he's ever done, he's insane and would betray me in an instant for a cooking implement.