Allanaki City Elves

[MeTekillot]

I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?

[Armaddict]

A bunch of cool con artist stuff.

See, I recall there being an elven roleplay page that I am constantly referencing in my head when I talk about these things, but I can't find it.  At all, it's like it poofed, was on the old gdb, or I completely made it up in the most real way possible.

However, that entire outlook you talked about right there was part of it, that 'steal' was not the most common way for an elf to steal from you.  They're manipulators.  They're just always looking to be out on top.  That was major realization in my first couple elves that changed the way I viewed them, and I started to enjoy them.  It's not that I constantly made cons...it's that I was constantly -looking- to make the cons.

I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?

...city elves get steal as a racial skill.  Unless that changed at some point.

[RogueGunslinger]

I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?

Sometime I try to joke but am instead condescending. I think that might have been one of those times. Edited.

[MeTekillot]

I thought con-artistry was kinda already the schtick of elves that don't get skill_steal?

...city elves get steal as a racial skill.  Unless that changed at some point.

But do they get sleight of hand?

close pack

EDIT: put all bag;put bag pack;close pack

sneaky pickpockets can't get me now ;0)

[Rathustra]

I liek c-elves.

[RogueGunslinger]

I liek c-elves.

Whats the deal with these strings of skulls. Let them staaay.

[Dakota]

I liek c-elves.

And all elves liek you, Rathustra

[Spider]

Once a party passes the elven loyalty tests, the elf then passes the tribal mentality to that party. This includes complete and utter loyalty to that party, as well as the expectation of the same in return.  Do note that the elf also expects tests to be performed by the other party onto them as well.  

The final test of the process is generally a situation where the elf puts them-self into a real life threatening situation, and then asks the other party to put them-self into a real life threatening situation to get them out of it. It doesn't matter what race the other is, such a form of loyalty and selfless behavior is enough to convince the elf to put their full trust in that party.

Is this an actual tribe? In my opinion, it is to the elf.  There might not be a fancy name to it, or a long history of blood-lines, but a tribe and this companionship, as far as their nature, are indistinguishable.

I see your point; however I think it is important that you distinguish between elven tests of loyalty and tribe making. The tests are there to prove to the elf that the individual is trustworthy.  It is the tribal mentality, the fierce loyalty that the elf passes onto that person. If you think about the tests, and just how strict they are supposed to be, you'd see that the result transcends race.


Apologies that I'm bringing up a bit of an older point here but I wanted to comment on this.

While I don't disagree that elves could potentially get to this end-point in trusting another party, and it certainly a necessary condition in the formation of a new tribe, I do want to make the point that there should be some distinguishing between full blown tribal trust as opposed to tested trust.  I wouldn't say that there might be such a difference between tribal trust and tested trust for another elf, and I don't disagree that other races can be the subject of elven trust tests, but my belief is that elves would be keenly aware that non-elves just don't have that sort of undying loyalty to the tribe that an elf would.  Racism is prevalent in Zalanthas, and elves are certainly subject to it, but would also certainly be propagators of it as well - perhaps to elves, humans are wishy-washy, dwarves are insane, half-giants are just mindless imitating children.  How could any full-blooded elf really fully trust someone like that, even if they've proven themselves temporarily in the short term?  There'd always be that niggling thought in the back of their head - is this mul going to flip out on me today?

I think it's important to keep in mind that incompatible genetics aside, there would presumably never be an elven tribe with any permanence that contained different races for that very reason.  This alone should give reason to distinguish tribe vs. tested trust.

I think it's important that you understand how strict the elven loyalty tests are supposed to be, and a proper result would transcend race.  It doesn't make sense for an individual to pass those tests just to plan to betray the elf later.  Also note, that individuals of a tribe must always act on the good of the tribe.  If a member is suspected of going against the tribe, you better believe that the elf will reassess the situation.

Another point, tribeless elves do not go out looking to form a new tribe, formation of a tribe(companionship) is done organically simply by living.  Tribeless elves are incredibly arrogant and proud of their tribeless self. They wouldn't really be actively looking to be a part of one, unless of course outside influences require it.

The part I mention about tribeless elves was a part of the Elven Roleplay documentation that existed in the original helpfiles. I'm not certain if Staff scratched the concept, as I cannot find the quote in the helpfiles anymore. That concept could be outdated.

[Armaddict]

I think its fairly obvious that Spider and me have had similar experiences with our elven play and how we read things.  Really, this entire thing could just come down to an 'eye of the beholder' concept where my original idea has sprung into something entirely different than others.

Edited to add:  This really does make me think some of the documentation has been revised or removed.  We seem to be quoting some of the same things, which we can't find anywhere.

[Fujikoma]

I find the struggle part of what entertains me. Want to be even more hated and mistrusted than a breed? Try an elf.

[Dresan]

I liek c-elves.

You know there is always a chance we might be missing something.


I wouldn't mind knowing what you enjoy most about playing c-elf? Especially one without a a coded tribe. Did you stay independent? Or did you join any of the clans? Did you c-elves consider their new clans as surrogate tribes? If you ddi join any of the clans did you find it frustrating not to be able to do the same things as others or do you feel they can easily cope?


Just a general idea of why you like them so much that some of us that might feel a little jaded against them might have missed or maybe blowing out of proportion. If i myself had to pick something interesting about them, I'd say high elven agility might be a fun thing to play around with just to see what it can do for me.

[Fujikoma]

I liek c-elves.

You know there is always a chance we might be missing something.


I wouldn't mind knowing what you enjoy most about playing c-elf? Especially one without a a coded tribe. Did you stay independent? Or did you join any of the clans? Did you c-elves consider their new clans as surrogate tribes? If you ddi join any of the clans did you find it frustrating not to be able to do the same things as others or do you feel they can easily cope?


Just a general idea of why you like them so much that some of us that might feel a little jaded against them might have missed? If i myself had to pick something interesting about them, I'd say high elven agility might be a fun thing to play around with just to see what it can do for me.

My elves are dumb and easily mislead (don't tell -them- that, though) and try to find the sense of tribe in the clan they join, which always ends in disappointment as they slowly begin to realize just how dense and selfish humans really -are-, always getting ahead not on the merit of their deeds, but simply by the shape of their ears, which slowly morphs into a form of jealousy an hatred that expresses itself in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, as they conspire to cleanse the tribe of those who use it to their own ends, instead of serving the tribe's best interests.

[Malken]

I liek c-elves.

and big butts

[chuci]

I liek c-elves.

and big butts

and I always lie.

[valeria]

Was this the file that you were looking for?

[Dakota]

I liek c-elves.

and big butts

and I always lie.

You other round-ears deny.

[Spider]

Was this the file that you were looking for?

No it was specific documentation concerning the personality traits of tribeless elves. That one there is quite different than the one I am speaking of. I'll keep looking, but elven documentation has changed a bit since the revamp.

[FantasyWriter]

Was this the file that you were looking for?

No it was specific documentation concerning the personality traits of tribeless elves. That one there is quite different than the one I am speaking of. I'll keep looking, but elven documentation has changed a bit since the revamp.

try old.armageddon.org Lots of stuff there that's not on the new sight if it hasn't been removed already.

[Armaddict]

Aha!

That's the one!  http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/thanas_elf.html

Well.  One of them.  This is pre-Nyr-announcement, so he does talk about having 1-2 others in your tribe, but not having it as a lasting tribe.  In other words, I think the equivalent of a normal family setup.

It should be noted, however, that the 'tested' is placed on the same level in his description as 'the tribe'.

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

Pretty much all of these are no longer on the website, and I think they should be.  While player created, they were staff supported ideas at the time.  Some of it is outdated, but speaks to the conversation we're having here.  And yes, they do also agree and disagree with both sides of this discussion, which makes them interesting to read.

[FantasyWriter]

Aha!

That's the one!  http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/thanas_elf.html

Well.  One of them.  This is pre-Nyr-announcement, so he does talk about having 1-2 others in your tribe, but not having it as a lasting tribe.  In other words, I think the equivalent of a normal family setup.

It should be noted, however, that the 'tested' is placed on the same level in his description as 'the tribe'.

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

Pretty much all of these are no longer on the website, and I think they should be.  While player created, they were staff supported ideas at the time.  Some of it is outdated, but speaks to the conversation we're having here.  And yes, they do also agree and disagree with both sides of this discussion, which makes them interesting to read.

I had never read that particular page before. Thanas was before my time, but damn, I have never wanted to write up an elf so bad in my life.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I think it's important that you understand how strict the elven loyalty tests are supposed to be, and a proper result would transcend race.

I think you and I will just have to disagree here - not on the seriousness of the testing itself, but how the trust level would automatically transcend race to equate to tribe-level trust, even at it's end point.  Note though, even in Armaddict's link to the old elven RP doc Thanas qualifies the elf's tribe-level trusting of the end-tested human with "probably", and goes on to mention how the rest of the tribe may not trust the human (though presumably that might apply just as well to any tested non-tribe outsider human or not - Thanas doesn't specify).

It might help me understand your point of view though, if you could expand further on your thought here:

It doesn't make sense for an individual to pass those tests just to plan to betray the elf later.

I can say that I've personally been a part of storylines in game, where this sort of level of betrayal played out right in the gameworld? 

How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?


As for what you mention here:

Another point, tribeless elves do not go out looking to form a new tribe, formation of a tribe(companionship) is done organically simply by living.  Tribeless elves are incredibly arrogant and proud of their tribeless self. They wouldn't really be actively looking to be a part of one, unless of course outside influences require it.

I'd be interested in reading about that if it was part of the old docs, actually as I'm interested to see where that viewpoint arises from.  But to me, it wouldn't make sense that if the tribe mentality is so essential to elven thought, that they'd be incredibly proud to not be in one and be self-sufficient.  But maybe that's just me, and I'm not staff, obviously.

[Armaddict]

How about a different angle: what if your elf tests a dwarf, and the dwarf passes all the elf's tests since doing so aligns with the dwarf's current focus.  Then the dwarf completes their focus and the new one causes the dwarf to break that trust?  Here, the dwarf isn't even planning that ahead of time, that's just dwarves for you.  Surely elves know that dwarves do things like this because they're dwarves - would they really grant tribe-equivalent trust to such a creature?

I hope we can find more exceptions to every bit of documentation, because they clearly point out how wrong it is.  Yes, that is sarcasm.  As a general rule of the elven mentality, the description stands. EDITED TO ADD HERE:  Likewise...this doesn't disprove the documentation.  This is a point where the elven mentality actually fucks them.  This...would actually be an excellent personal plot in line with murder, corruption, and betrayal.  That elf would be seriously damaged after this occurred.

As for the 'probably', you need to remember this was officially on the webpage.  The 'probably' was the editorial note of the player, and so that 'probably' stands very strongly.  The point of the matter is, a tested individual is very highly trusted, 'probably' to the point of not being in the tribe, but being treated as if they were a tribe member.  Unless, of course, you have a tribe, in which case it remains individual rather than a tribe contact; other tribemates would not have the same association.  This is why we were saying the tribal mentality can remain intact without an actual full on tribe; for a tribeless elf, these tested people -are- their tribe, even though it's not a full on tribal unit.  They interact with these people the same way, and thus it remains in game through true elven roleplay without tribes to sink into.

Again...I would like to state that having tribes in game would indeed be nice.  I enjoy playing in them.  But I find the tribeless elf also fulfilling in very very similar ways, and would not call the lack of coded support race breaking.

I'd be interested in reading about that if it was part of the old docs, actually as I'm interested to see where that viewpoint arises from.  But to me, it wouldn't make sense that if the tribe mentality is so essential to elven thought, that they'd be incredibly proud to not be in one and be self-sufficient.  But maybe that's just me, and I'm not staff, obviously.

From 'The Elven Persona':

What Does Not Being a Tribal Elf Mean?

While elves who are born and raised within the culture their tribe provides them, those who are born without a tribe (or lose their tribe, for whatever reasons) adopt a new mentality. Tribal elves have a strong sense of their family, meaning that as an individual they usually feel themselves as an extension or a working gear in the system that is their tribe. Elves who are without tribes have a strong sense of self, and generally their own presence will replace that of the tribe. Tribal elves have a strong distrust for outsiders, tribeless elves have a strong distrust for generally everyone. While tribal elves have an "us and them" philosophy, tribeless elves have a "me and them" philosophy.

Which leads to Spider's assertion of the importance of tests, and how a tribeless elf 'organically' gains the same relationships of a tribe, just not as an a priori association.  It builds.  The relationship is purposely tested, and sometimes improved not on purpose as well.  Someone who sticks with an elf and is loyal to an elf may find that elf returning the favor, or may find themselves manipulated.  Such is the nature of elven roleplay.

[Fujikoma]

That broom is not a rake...
Your grandma's gone insane...
A bee came,
and stung me,
I, ran, away....

[Zoan]

Elf adage: "Buyers are liars, and sellers are storytellers."

[mattrious]

If you play a city-elf based on the information collected here:

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elf.html

You will succeed. Just a wealth of information on what they are and what they're all about. This also points to where I am coming from in regards to starting your own group. I am not certain why anything needs to change outside of these documents?