Remember Me

[Cabooze]

If Arm did implement such a memory system, I'm guessing we would only have it replace sdescs for people who have no hoods/facewraps/masks on, right? It stretches things a bit to say once you 'remember dude as Amos' you're always going to recognize him no matter what he's wearing or how covered up he is.

Also, what happens if someone changes their sdesc/mdesc? I'm guessing people would have to lose memory of the character? And how often would we need to "re-remember" someone if memories wore off? Once a Zalanthan year? Longer/shorter?

It could get kind of awkward when you suddenly forget your heartmate (ha ha) that you've been living with for a year IG and they revert back to their sdesc, which you may have forgotten OOCly from not seeing in a while.

None of this is to say it's a bad idea, I'm just wondering about the details.

Not only that, but what if there are more than one tall, handsome man? If your script recognizes "the tall, handsome man" as Amos, but Malik, the tall, handsome man walks into the room..well obviously they're not the same person.

What'd be worse, is if Malik has long billowing blonde hair, Amos has a red-dyed mohawk, Malik is broad-shouldered an barrel-chested while Amos is wiry and androgynous in body type.

You'd have to spend more time fixing that script to accommodate the *other* tall, handsome man, than might be worth having the script in the first place.

Then again you could just "assess" who you think the person is. If the person isn't who you think they are, then you simply don't recognize them.

[evilcabbage]

Serverside in my experience on other MUDs the name of the person is appended to the end or beginning of the SDesc in question which, yes, allowed immortals and the MUD to differentiate between who is who.

[Yummri]

Well, on the MOO I came from.(sorry I know I keep saying that but its my best reffrencing point because most other rp games don't use a system like this from my experience.) You would see the sdesc till they named themselves or you named them. It would overwrite the sdesc entirely for that person only and when using the name it wouldn't show the name to anyone who did't know it.

Tall fat, man is standing here drinking a glass of wine.

Remember fat as Davin

Davin is standing here drinking a glass of wine.

I personally think this system would give people the option. You don't have to use it if you don't need to. But it is there for those who might.

[evilcabbage]

I think it makes more sense that after many years you might forget who that person is.

If I don't see a person in game for like, 3-4 RL days, I -actually- do forget sometimes who they are. More realistic that way. I prefer it stay that way.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I support a naming system.

[Fujikoma]

While I think it would take something away from the game to have a naming system, I think it would add much more in making the game accessible to a wider range of players, so I, personally would support it.

I guess if I don't like the naming system, I could choose not to use it. One question, though, from a distance, should you see the sdescs, or the names? I'd prefer the former but am interested in hearing what others think.

EDIT: What about some kind of hidden skill level, directly linked to the naming system, how many times you hear their name in conversation while they're in the room, how many times you use ~person or %person for that particular person, makes you more likely to remember them for longer and spot them at a distance?

How should this work with added keywords, say, if a person has the keyword Bob, but his real name is Robert, and you add Bob and use that, should that be a separate skill, based on remembering Bob and not Robert?

A recognition system would make it harder to pull off nasty tricks, though I have no experience with those, yet, I'd think, like lobbing poop at that templar from little ways off and hightailing it out of town.

But with hoods and facewraps, and false mustaches, maybe the person making a skill check gets a penalty to the recognition factor, increasing with each added device?

[Yummri]

I'm of the opinion that face wraps, hoods and the like should make it harder not impossible to remember someone and that distance would make it hard to remember someone.

I'm also off the opinion that being hidden would make it harder to remember someone someone and that if you don't see them for a year or so you would find it really hard to remember someone.

The idea being you could only remember them if they are in the same room. Not from 4 rooms down the road.

[Harmless]

So... Tintin++ can do this rather easily.

#substitute {the tall, muscular man} {Amos, the tall, muscular man}. Or simply {Amos}.

Danger: identical sdescs. But you can turn them off as easily as you make them.

I don't know if tintin++ supports a reader. It is entirely console based. I use it exclusively and am happy to orient you if desired. PM me if interested.

[evilcabbage]

I think you're trying to make a game easier when it's supposed to be difficult. I'm quite happy not having names, and I would hate to see such a feature -ever- implemented. It would take away from the expeirence.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think you're trying to make a game easier when it's supposed to be difficult. I'm quite happy not having names, and I would hate to see such a feature -ever- implemented. It would take away from the expeirence.

I think you're confusing the way the game is meant to be harsh icly with the way the code is inherently unforgiving, and sometimes clunky. They are not one in the same, and the latter is from what I've seen, not intentional in Armageddon.

[Fujikoma]

I think you're trying to make a game easier when it's supposed to be difficult. I'm quite happy not having names, and I would hate to see such a feature -ever- implemented. It would take away from the expeirence.

The issue here is not trying to make the game "easier", but more accessible to the visually impaired. They tend to use programs called "screen readers" to play muds. You probably won't be able to play halo with them, but with a few minor tweaks you can play muds with them...

My limited understanding is that a screen reader reads the words on the screen aloud... I don't know if much can be done about NPC sdescs, but PC at least could be shortened by a remember command, which, of course, would have to have limitations, so at least it's not completely obvious who everyone is, until you meet them, interact with them, way them so many times, etc.... My idea would be to make remembering each person a skill check, a skill check hampered by things like distance, facewraps, raised hoods, false mustaches, other things. Would I use the command? Probably not. I've rather grown to like things the way they are, but it's not something for me, and I wouldn't have to use it.

The thing I think there's no work around for, though, are the accents some players creatively adopt. I've done it myself, there's no way around it and I'm not sure screen readers adjust for such things, although, I've never played with one so I'm completely ignorant. I know they don't translate that leet speak garbage so well. I imagine the burden would be eased significantly if a very social character were able to use a remember function to shorten the number of words somewhat.

It still wouldn't be easy, wouldn't be easier by much, but it would be a step toward making the game more accessible. Anyway, just throwing my opinion out there, feel free to disagree, I realize I don't speak from experience being visually impaired, nor have I played the game so long. My only point is "Get used to it." fails to address the difficulty those who are visually impaired face when encountering a game like this, a game they could be playing.

I think along with that, it would be neat if certain buildings and terrain hazards would show up in brief mode. The latter I'm not real sure about, I've heard some of those are easy to miss if you're not looking at room descs, the former I know I've missed because I use brief mode, my concentration tends to be somewhat limited and I'll quickly lose track of where I am if I can't scroll back up, leading to much wandering, death by thirst and starvation.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd use the shit out of it. Probably. I dunno. The option would be cool. Certainly not something I'll go to war to have, though.

[Yummri]

The idea is not to make the game easier at all because one of the things that drew me in was that life is harsh. But it is about shortening the lines I have to read to mean I cand others in my position can keep up.

Anyone with full sight can skim read. We don't have that. Our readers have to pick out every word and read it back to us. And the point would be that it is a choice. It doesn't take anything away from the game because I am fully in support of this command having limitations such as needing a name to remember them and having to be present with them to remember them. Not just hearing a name and a descrpion and knowing who they are. That would be rather silly and take away from rp of learning who people are. You may be told and then actually have to meet them to remember them.

Accents aren't so much a big deal. it adds to the flavor and while it can be hard to understand at first somethimes "get use to it" strongly applies. I don't think its far to really say it applies in this instance. And a player retention factor the game would have more players if certain things were made more accessible. I'm stubborn I personally can try to adapt. Not everyone is of the mindset. They see not-accessible and just leave. The lack of new blood takes away from a game much more than a remember system which you don't have to use to make it more accessible.

[Fujikoma]

Yummri has a point about player retention. On some muds I've played, the visually impaired have actually made up a pretty damn good percentage of the player-base, which is the only reason I know any thing at all about screen-readers... Combat is hard enough to keep up with if you can see, with brief mode on, when there's enough going on at once, such as a swarm scenario. I can imagine that would lock a screenreader up, but it locks my brain up too, still, at least I can skim and see that "Jimbo needs HELP!" and maybe pull someone out, thus increasing everyone's survival chances.

Then again, that big storm dragon on ancient anguish is a spammy beast with a large number of attacks per turn, complete with ascii graphics for each special attack and can, quite easilly, murder someone it's not even attacking, (My level 18 elven rogue managed to survive the dang thing in a party run by Bahzi, it was pretty wild, he thought it was hilarious that I lived, though he did have a decent level half-elven cleric keeping my HP up), not to mention going on an xp run through a certain cave with a pair of rangers spamming all the skinning skills, their wolves dismembering ratmen everywhere, flesh, blood, severed limbs, just dizzying, I've almost fallen out of my chair being hypnotized by the walls of text. Some games are more accessible than others. The rangers and storm dragons of ancient anguish are considerably more spammy than the worst of swarms I've seen IG (barring HRPT, never been in the middle of one, so can't say).

But I would think it highly considerate to take the visually impaired portion of the community into account when tweaking game design, their choices of what kinds of games they can play are somewhat limited depending upon impairment, they like to play games too, so as far as muds are concerned, they can actually make up a fair portion of a game's player base through the use of screen readers and such.

[evilcabbage]

This is something that I believe many in the staff (but I am not speaking for them, it is my belief) would probably say would be too detrimental to the MUD to be of any use. It has a lot of room for abuse by the playerbase, and that alone is enough reason to not do it. I'm sorry that you're visually impaired, and I'm sorry that you have a difficult time with some facets of the MUD, but honestly, it's going to be harder for you. The best thing I can say is try to tough it out and eventually develop yourself to the point where you can play the MUD efficiently the way it is now.

[Harmless]

So.... Visually impaired players, I ask you, what mud client are you using? We have savvy folks here who can help you, I think.

[Yummri]

Its open to abuse? Its only open to abuse if you code it as such. And at not point did I say I would of liked it to be perfect and without flaws because a memory is flawed. And I don't only see the difference between a remember command to change a sdesc into a name. And someone abusing the knowledge of a key word and the description they've read and took a list of. Both are opening to abuse in equal terms.

But just tough it out isn't exactly doable. Some people don't have their reader as fast as I have mine they just can't. There are a lot of visually impaired people who are looking for a game just like this one, who will look at this, say what...where, how...omg the spam and log right out. I know that because I've already heard from a bunch that say they've tried the game and the lack of accessibility made it far to hard. Your right the game is already harder on me and anyone in my position. But why does it have to be needlessly so for the sake of change.

Taking an out of game list doesn't work for us the same as it does for you. We switch windows to add a name to a notepad file and we miss everything that has passed in the room. We have to scroll up line by line to where we last were and then we are even further behind. Each person's sdesc in combat is something we have to go through just to see if they were hit and that slows us down. So on that premise you've taken combat out of the option too. Again a needless limitation.

It makes sense that we make up a large portion of players because text-based is exactly what our readers are for.

As for the client issue I'm on mushclient. But others use a verity of clients and adding scripts etc can get complicated with readers too. And aking triggers that are complex poses the same issues as a notepad file and trying to read through that when things are going on. Though I appreciate the thought.

If a remember system isn't the way to go fine. But something needs doing. I'm open to ides that work for the games benefit as well as encouraging players  that are right now being excluded.

[Jherlen]

I don't think it's very constructive to try and put words in staff's mouths and say they would/would not like a feature. Also, "just tough it out" is a good response to some IC problems, but not really when someone's having an OOC problem playing the game. New players are great, and maybe there's potential here to attract/keep players that other MUDs are ignoring due to accessibility issues? Instead let's try and focus the debate around how we might use this, or not want it used. We've already done a decent job at enumerating some possible limitations we might want to see:

• hoods/facewraps should make recognizing someone harder or impossible
• seeing someone you remember in the distance should make recognizing them harder
• memory of a person should fade over time, especially if you don't encounter them
• memory should only be possible if you're in the same room with someone (so no "remembering" over the Way, or from seeing someone in another room)
  

How else might this be abused, if staff decided to implement the idea, or how could it add/detract from the game?

If I were a staff member/coder, the more we could flesh out the feature, it would probably make it easier to decide if it's a good fit for the game and how they might implement it if so.

[Fujikoma]

I think distance should also make it a little harder. Some of the more intense moments when I'm out doing things is wondering if that figure in the distance is friend or foe as they slowly approach, as they sit, just a league off, not doing anything. Maybe that's someone I know, maybe it's a raider and I'm about to get robbed, and I only know when they get right up on me, oh hey! It's that guy! Run away!!!

Hood up, facewrap on, distant, you're not really going to be able to make out much.

[Qzzrbl]

I remember there was one MUD that had a special "mode" for blind players.

Like, they had to talk to Staff to get access to it, but was apparently -loads- easier on screen readers.

This was also a mud where short descriptions weren't a thing, but if we had something like this idea that I still hope and pray makes its way in eventually, we could tie that in with an "accessability mode" to act more like your average "intro".

'Cause let's be honest.

Would it -really- make the game any easier if we could see names after an introduction?

I mean reaaaaaally?

I wouldn't mind giving blind people the option so they have less spammy nonsense to sift through.

Why make it a skill or add checks or any silly stuff like that? Seems a bit unnecessary.

Hood up/sdesc masked in any way? No easy recognition.

Face out in the open? Added keyword in place of full sdesc.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I actually came into this thread to suggest just this, Qzzrbl. Make it a feature staff adds to your account, only for blind people. Make is simple.

>remember keyword nickname.
You'll remember sdesc as nickname, correct? Answer yes or no.
>Yes.
Ok.

Very simple. Very plain.

[Desertman]

Pretty clear she didn't realize, actually. 

That was the case and I'm sorry for pushing to far.

Aahahaha.

Out of all of the people I thought would beat me to picking on the new blind kid, I did not ever think it would be you.

Also, new blind kid, welcome to the game. I take boots without discrimination. 

[FreeRangeVestric]

If this code were to be implemented, I'd say hoods/facewraps/masks would have to make a person fully impossible to recognize, or else we'd essentially be defeating the main function of these items.

[Fujikoma]

I'd think hood plus facemask or wrap, with distance, should make a person near impossible to recognize, myself, without IG years of familiarity... Even then should be questionable. But getting to know your Bynner buddies, and how to fight in large battles with them in close quarters, should be made easier.

[evilcabbage]

I'd think hood plus facemask or wrap, with distance, should make a person near impossible to recognize, myself, without IG years of familiarity... Even then should be questionable. But getting to know your Bynner buddies, and how to fight in large battles with them in close quarters, should be made easier.

Nope. If I slap a hood and facewrap on, I don't -want- to be recognized, and I don't want the code to allow you to just recognize me. It already does that enough as ti is.

The room for abuse is in the fact that the code could outright name a player, based on your system, even if they have a facewrap and hood on.

What that does is allow Joe-blow Soldier to go "HEY THAT WAS AMOS HE MUGGED ME LAST WEEK" because Joe-blow Soldier managed to "dub" or "remember" amos.

What happens then is a series of cmoplaints because Amos was wearing a totally unique outfit to him at the time with a facewrap, an eyewrap, a nosewrap and an ear wrap, plus a huge cloak and really grubby clothes, and Joe-blow soldier recognized him codedly.