Backstab idea

[Stroker]

Training Backstab? Find a teacher, and start learning. It may not be easy ... but what is on Zalanthas?

Forgive me this, as I speak generally, trying to encompass all my thoughts on the matter.

Frankly, I'm glad Backstab is difficult. Why? Because if it weren't we'd have multiple people running around slaughtering others. I swear it. Backstab is a very powerful piece of code. And it should be difficult. How many people do you get to practice killing in a lifetime? Not too many, I should think. You wanna assassinate people? Then do it. Pick a target, and, depending on your location, buy a liscense. Then good luck to ya. But if ya die... oh well. Such is the way of a killer. If you're looking to kill others, make sure you are comfortable with the fact that some people don't want to die, and that they will Kill you in an attempt to prolong their life. This is the essence of an assassin: Not to get killed on the job.

And don't get me wrong, guys, I love assassins and rogue-types. So chill.
But if you're going or considering going toe-to-toe with multiple warrior-class PCs or NPCs, I don't think you should hold onto the Assassin mantle.

Here's the major point. Assassin's are generally not great fighters. They don't kill their targets by beating them down. They use single attacks, or they use some other crafty means. They generally tend not to fight for too long. (Ninja's were never about kicking ass for fifteen minutes, using their best and flashiest moves. Those are movie ninjas. They are about killing and getting the hell out.) That's it. Sneak up, strike, poison, trap, possibly knock them out, and kill. Then run. Hide. Wait. Patience is the key, here. Running screaming up to a victim and trying to score critical blows during combat isn't going to prove very effective.

This is also why I believe that Backstabbing a target, fleeing, re-entering and backstabbing again is perfectly viable. That's what they do. They don't stick around. But they make sure the job gets done. If someone backstabs you, and you survive? If you're stronger, chase them down and keep attacking. If you're weaker, run. Run like mad. Because, if I were an assassin, I would be sure as hell I made my target dead. Even if I have to strike, run off, hide, and wait for another chance to strike.

There's no reason to attempt a backstab during combat.

Also, most backstabbers should be astute at deception. Stealth. Distance from a target. Afraid the backstab won't work? Here's an idea:
Work on your thrown weapons. Easier to Train. Find some nice poison. Or make your own, eventually. You are a killing machine. Poison a knife, throw it, hide, then backstab. Poofda. Multiple levels of your assassination skills have been utilized. And, likely, if you're smart, you're gonna end up winning the day.

But don't complain about backstab. You're all capable players. Backstab isn't the only way out of these things. Branch Sap. Knock 'em out, drag 'em off, then kill. Worked, didn't it?

Here's another idea: Work in groups. Assassins are not all loners. Many of them have stuck together. Most often, however, these assassins were not working for mere money, but for a cause, and the target must have been brought down for the cause. (Example: Japanese noble riding through humble rice field is suddenly stabbed from behind, soon after stabbed from a different direction, until he dies bleeding in the road, his 4 Korean assailants scampering off into the stuff of legends, in an attempt to end Japanese occupation of Korea).

I think the major thing behind this is, we want our characters to seem flashy and god-like, smiting those who stand before us in any situation. Don't become a victim of pride. If you get good at backstab, good. If you haven't, because the RP hasn't allowed it, then deal. Besides, the purpose of the game is not merely to kill. For an assassin character, it is to kill those who need to be killed, for whatever reason, in an attempt to further story.

I love assassin's. But let's face it, guys. We aren't warriors.
We're sneaks. With knives. We're not a warrior class.
We know how to kill.
Killing is a linked, yet different aspect of fighting.
Fight less. Kill more.

Besides, it's more terrifying if you kill swiftly and undetected.
Instead of lashing out, trying to backstab (blank) Nobles' guard in an all-out fight-for-your-life.

You shouldn't be struggling when you make your mark.
They should.

I dunno. Just my thoughts.
Don't punish me.

(And I got More assassin ideas, too. Muahahahahaha!)

Shade!
-J

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, Tobin embodies the principles of an assassin perfectly. Great post.

(PS: I still think my method of equating backstab would make the skill less twinkish, but that is simply my opinion.)

[Dakkon Black]

I think I like the averaging out on the skills to get backstab yet if you practiced those that woudnt make you good at killin. Sigh, Ill just go back to killing these rats.

[Summer]

I think that in most cases, running from combat only to come back to the location and try backstabbing again is pretty unrealistic. If someone tries to backstab me, be sure that I will be on the lookout for it again. In the wild this is especially true, I'm not going to say, oh look, that elf just tried to backstab me, then he ran a whole league away. Oh wait, he is running back... Ok, I'll turn my back so he can backstab me again.

[Carnage]

Yeah, I'd consider a flee; e; backstab; flee; e; backstab kind of thing to be incredibly lame. It's about as bad as a warrior spamming disarm, kick, and bash.

[Summer @ work]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic there... I think you are a bit, however I don't quite a agree with you there. The warrior's combat skills are skills that are designed to be used in combat. They have delays built in to them already, perhaps those delays should be longer, but thats another matter. If a wrrior was to use those skills in combat I think thats fine, it's part of the reason I am afraid of warriors!

Using your coded skills in combat like that however still makes sense from a RP perspective. What doesn't make sense to me is in a wilderness setting trying to backstab, then fleeing (each square covers quite a lot of distance right?) then moving back in again and having another go. It just doesn't work for me from a RP perspective. In a city setting where there are more virtual people around and places for someone to sneak up on you I can see it happening a little easier, however I still think it is a bit dodgy, so I probably wouldn't do it.

Each to their own though, I'm not the best at roleplaying, so if people feel it works for them then thats up to them.

[Carnage]

Actually, I was being serious. I don't have a problem with a warrior kicking a a few times over a long fight, but spamming it is just something I'd mark down as cheap and lame. It's not the sort of thing someone would write in and complain about but it doesn't exactly make you look like the best of players if you're just spamming in the skills.

Backstab has delays coded in, too.
And besides, hit and run tactics have been implemented throughout the ages, here on earth. They've evolved into Guerilla Warfare and the like.
So, I don't think the arguments for running off and hiding being lame are that valid.
If I'm supposed to kill some uber warrior, and all I have is a knife, and he's got years of training in dealing with people trying to kill him directly, and whippity-cool bash, disarms, and kicks at his disposal, I'm sure as hell not going toe to toe with the guy.
In that case it's David Vs. Goliath, and if Goliath doesn't run, and he dies, it's his own damned fault. However, If david goes toe to toe with Goliath and dies, it's David's damned fault.
If you can't detect what's trying to kill you, then you have the problem, sadly. It goes both ways. I'm willing to bet most Warriors would have field-days fighting an assassin head on.
Besides, fleeing, returning, and backstabbing isn't really all there is to it.
If you're backstabbed, attacked, and someone comes charging in at you, again, then the assassin's at fault.
I'm talking more:
backstab; flee; e; n; sneak; w; s; backstab; flee
If you don't see it coming, then you don't see it coming. Furthermore, it does give you plenty of time to react as far as 'combat' situations go. Even if the guy has it all macro'd out or whatever, there are still delays. Movement delays, backstabbing delays, etc.
Besides, if they're just rushing backstabs out, it shouldn't be entirely too difficult to see one coming, if they aren't hidden.

Do you guys have tons of assassins coming after you, or what?

As far as the wilderness goes, Okay.
If yer out there and some guy sneaks up and stabs you and runs off, then there are a few things to consider. If he comes right back, I think you've got initiative, and should get to smacking him pretty quick.
But, then, keep in mind, also that many assassins in the course of time have been from the middle-eastern, desert-like countries. It is possible to hide in a desert. But yeah, that might be cutting it a bit too close.

But consider that there is a delay for hide, and a delay for backstab. Also, most assassins shouldn't be all toooo great hiding outside the city walls. But, you never know.

Really, I think it's a toss-up.
I think in the thick of it, most of us would flip out and do whatever it took to try to survive. Most of us, anyway. The warrior-type would bash, kick, and disarm away, and the assassin... well. WHo knows. Flee, backstab, etc. Some play nice, some play a little nastier.

Summer says she fears warriors becaus of their skills in combat, which, yeah, I fear and respect those skills as well. But everyone seems to resent the assassin's skills to backstab. It should be feared and respected just as much as the warrior's. They're two different beasts, those two, with different methods.

The assassin is dangerous not because he should be able to flat out kick your teeth in, but that he could kill you without you knowing he was about to. The wise assassin wouldn't be hasty about going after a now-fully-aware victim, but, then, fools rush in.

In closing, I think all of it is fine. The unfortunate part is, once you try to put 'limitations' on sensitive stuff like this, where does it stop? I'm sure those who've worked on the code thought it through a bit, and I trust in their judgement. Warriors have delays, Assassin's have Delays. Rangers can shoot arrows or something, ...not so sure about the magic stuff, some people can knock your ass out and kill you like that.

It's all personal preference. I think we all have some general thought about how things 'should' be. But most of the time, I think we let our thoughts get too subjective and biased for the survival of our characters. So debates like this will never cease, I don't think. But I'm gonna end my side of it by saying:
I really don't think it's that big of a problem.
If you've got assassin's coming after you, you might have bigger problems than just them. Think about it.

PEACE!  (Funny hearing that in a post about killing and stuff, huh? Oh well. )
-J

[Dan]

I think an assassin's throwing ability is much scarier. Easier to train, can be stealthy and deadly while not toe-to-toe as it were. You pretty much give up five rounds at least after a backstab, five rounds in which the warrior will likely knock your ass around.

I remember one instance where I had an assassin who was pretty much trapped in a fight against a few people. No where to really run, almost a no win situation. Could have turned my way had I done things differently, but would also have been less realistic. I hid, emoted jumping behind a couch and threw a knife, ran, and threw a knife. Took one backstab shot at someone as they tried to subdue me, throwing out an emote first. I'll leave everything else out for fear of giving anything too IC away.

I think that its one thing to say what is right or wrong while your not in the moment, and another completely while you -are- the character in a deadly situation.

[Anonymous]

I hid, emoted jumping behind a couch and threw a knife, ran, and threw a knife.

Hasn't hiding while in plain view of people who are obviously watching you been given the rubber stamp of bad form?

[Dan]

Not when they wern't in the same room as me CRW. Moving south and east then hiding isn't bad form in my opinion. They came through looking for me, but didn't check behind the couch. It was simply an example, and im sure everyone makes mistakes from time to time, even though this wasn't one as far as im concerned.

[Anonymous]

Not when they wern't in the same room as me CRW. Moving south and east then hiding isn't bad form in my opinion.

Gotcha.  I thought you were in the same room and hid while three people were staring at you.

[Dan]

Heh, nah.

That really is the rubber stamp of bad form. Usually if I hide and someone scans, looks at me I will type 'eq' and become visible for everyone else as well. If one person looks at you, usually someone else is following their gaze, or easily could. Hiding is iffy at times, but I figure if you see them walk in, then don't see them, you lost sight of them in a crowd, or something like this.

[ShaLeah]

I'll say this before, I'll say it again (yes, even though no one listens to me).

Assassins should be a karma guild. A maxed assassin is positively scary and having died once to a twink-ass backstabbing assassin newbie, I think it's waaaaay too powerful a guild to be given to just anyone.

The only assassin I've played was a weakling but I know from reading the forum and ooc discussion that older assassins would not hesitate to take down a templar and his guard.  Don't you find that scary?

ShaLeah
-who does indeed find that scary.

[Carnage]

And besides, hit and run tactics have been implemented throughout the ages, here on earth. They've evolved into Guerilla Warfare and the like.

Guerilla warfare is NOT attacking for five seconds, running away, attacking, running away for another five seconds, and attacking again. There's an exceptionally big difference. Despite what you think, just because there are code delays doesn't make you right. Backstab is an -amazing- skill, and you even agreed in an earlier post that it was powerful. The entire tactic seems like a pathetically hack and slash thing to do and unrealistic and basically playing by the code.

ICly you're stabbing someone hard, then running away, then coming back when they're STILL aware and just as ready to defend themself as if they were in combat and doing it again. What's your excuse for running away and coming back again? 'I'm going to catch them off guard after just fighting them 10 seconds ago'? No, it may not be bug abuse but I can't see that as the sort of thing that's going to get you karma. I put it right there with hiding as soon as someone comes into a room and they can't look at you due to the delay.

I don't resent an assassin's ability to backstab. I recognize that it's the backbone of the assassin. However, there's more to an assassin than having to rely on backstab and resort to cheap, play-by-the-code tactics to kill someone.

Now what I see as being a good way to use backstab more than once on a person is

>backstab dude

Fight fight fight spam

>flee west

You flee, heading west!

>hide

You find a good place to hide.

Dude arrives from the west.

Dude looks around.

Dude scans the area intently.

Dude walks down the road slowly, eyes darting around carefully.

>:leaps out from a thin alleyway, thrusting in at ~dude as he passes

>backstab dude


'Zat cool? If you corner them to get them to walk that way, or if they try to follow you... you can do such a thing, all part of the assasin waiting game.

Guerilla warfare is NOT attacking for five seconds, running away, attacking, running away for another five seconds, and attacking again. There's an exceptionally big difference.

Agreed. I wasn't being literal.

Despite what you think, just because there are code delays doesn't make you right. Backstab is an -amazing- skill, and you even agreed in an earlier post that it was powerful. The entire tactic seems like a pathetically hack and slash thing to do and unrealistic and basically playing by the code.

I'm not saying 'I'm' right at all, first off. Secondly, I do -not- agree or condone to repeat backstabs in hastful manners. I -do- agree that hitting a target hard, running off and hiding, and making a slowy way back to the target -is- a viable assassination tactic, however unfair it seems to the victim. I'm not for code abuse or bug abuse at all. And, frankly, Maybe assassin characters Should have a prerequisite of karma.

I am arguing for the validity of running off after a backstab, looping around and attempting again, but -NOT- for backstab spam.

To clear things up, here's what I would call 'acceptable'. If you disagree, and if I'm 'wrong' then so be it. But I would prefer not getting chewed out for it, please. These are just thoughts and ideas. For all I know, maybe someone COULD stab me in the back, and as soon as I turned around, they'd be behind me, stabbing me again. Anyway:

The unaware victim stands, staring at far off distance, admiring architecture.

<backstab victim>

<fight initiates due to code>

<flee>

<(direction; direction; direction; {wash, rinse, repeat as desired})>

<hide>

<sneak>

<stalk your way back to victim, working your way around from another direction, with all luck (but, by this time, the target should be moved, right? If they haven't it's kinda... well... their problem)>

<backstab victim>

Emotes and the like in between as you see fit.

And why come back? To get the job done. You just FAILED a one-hit, and you may not get another chance. You HAVE to do something, now. It's how you do it that counts, but now it MUST be done. Before you backstabbed the first time, you could have waited days. Weeks. However long, to kill this person. But now? He might have seen enough to recognize you. He's gonna tell someone, you can be sure of that. Now you must finish your job by any means possible. Not to do so is too dangerous for you.

The fact is, even if you are aware someone is trying to kill you, and you are searching for them, you may never see another attack coming. And, in my opinion, that is completely acceptable. You don't become omnipotent to hostility if you're attacked. You may become more aware, most likely a bit frantic, if not ill at ease, and more watchful, but you are still susceptable to the same attack. Especially if the other person is more skilled than you are. The argument here being that although you may know IC that you are in the middle of an assassination, that you cannot control your skill, and neither can the assassin. If the other outmatches you, then who are you, or anyone, to say that you 'would' have seen them? How would you know what you would have seen? Would have expected. Perhaps you wouldn't expect -another- attack, since surely you're now completely aware of danger. You can't bypass the skills. And I don't doubt that people can hide very well from others even if they're strung out and watchful. Sometimes making people -too- watchful/frantic is an excellent way of getting them to do something stupid, and open themselves up for an attack.

I don't resent an assassin's ability to backstab. I recognize that it's the backbone of the assassin. However, there's more to an assassin than having to rely on backstab and resort to cheap, play-by-the-code tactics to kill someone.

I agree, fully. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the previous posts. I don't think doing what you've described is 'kosher' RP. It makes me wince, because one assassin doing that makes all the OTHER assassins look like twinks. When we're not all.

Backstab is powerful. Backstab is one of the primaries. Backstab is easily construed as cheap because, I think, it is so underhanded. But, personally, I'd spank backstabbing spammers too. Just to clear things up.

And maybe I'm being a little sensitive, here, but I would appreciate not being aggressively retorted. You pointed a proverbail finger at me, directly. These are just ideas. I'm not saying I'm right, at all, or that you should agree. These are my just my ideas and how I am viewing the situation. Furthermore, I did say 'evolved' into Guerilla Warfare and the -like-. That was not a statement to indicate the be-all-end-all relationship between hit-and-runs in general. It was to indicate that the general idea is not significantly fantastical or unheard of.

I don't post for a sense of worth, or for the argumentative factor.
I post because maybe my ideas will branch other ideas, which could lead to good things for the game; Hopefully ceasing arguments, and the sense of feeling cheated.

I just hope these posts make assassin players aware, others aware, and further the depth of good RP for everyone.

So, like I said before, don't punish me.
You don't have to agree, but I started my posts and continue my posts directed to no-one in particular, and I would appreciate a little more consideration as far as that goes. You made valid points, and I respect that, absolutely. And it's not that big of a deal at all; I really didn't feel the need to post to this thread, again, but because of the beginning of your post, I felt ill-at-ease and rather pushed into a sort of 'defense'.
And that's not something I like.

Anyhow. It's all good.

Peace.
-J

[hammie2]

I don't find hiding in a room like that bad rp at all if your life is in danger.  Emote jumping into a shadow, or behind a couch like was mentioned earlier. What I find as bad rp is someone running and fleeing when their wounds are so dang severe that an arm or a leg would drop off if they took 4 steps, however, they move the entire length of a city while in that condition.

[ShaLeah]

What I find as bad rp is someone running and fleeing when their wounds are so dang severe that an arm or a leg would drop off if they took 4 steps, however, they move the entire length of a city while in that condition.

I don't agree with this at all. Adrenaline is a powerful thing, desperation for survival is the same. People have crawled miles to survive, cut off limbs, turned on their attackers and all sorts of unbelievable stuff just to survive.
I think it's perfectly feasable to do anything you can to live until your last breath, including climbing that shield wall.


ShaLeah
-who still thinks assassins should be a karma guild.

[Stroker]

Not to mention people of Zalanthas have greater endurance than us, puny earthlings.

[Gorobei]

Not to mention that gravity is obviously lower on Zalanthas, so it would be a lot easier.  :wink:

[hammie2]

Still like to point out the fact that running across an entire city while in that condition is completely impossible.  Blood loss is enough at that point to die from massive wounds.

If that extra boost of energy was so dang good to take you that far, while running full tilt, it would probably be a karma level skill.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't agree with this at all. Adrenaline is a powerful thing, desperation for survival is the same. People have crawled miles to survive, cut off limbs, turned on their attackers and all sorts of unbelievable stuff just to survive.
I think it's perfectly feasable to do anything you can to live until your last breath, including climbing that shield wall.


ShaLeah
-who still thinks assassins should be a karma guild.

Adrenaline lasts about an upwards of five seconds.  If you aren't safe by that time, then you are completely and irrevocably fucked.  And yes, you might be able to crawl for miles when you were injured.  But I garuntee you that if somebody was chasing you and trying to kill you, then you wouldn't be able to outrun them.

The real problem is that its too easy to escape as it is, and if you are going to ignore IC realism just to do whatever it takes to survive, then you are abusing the game.

Now as for assassins.  If you think backstab is incredibly overpowered, then you must not realize that a warrior who gets to spar alot could easily do 30-50 damage by opening up an attack on an unsuspecting target who is mounted or hasn't drawn their weapons.  Probably at only 10-20 days of playing time.  How's that for a sneak attack?  With the backstab skill, an assassin would probably need over twice that amount of playing time to pull off the same feat.

Magickers are karma options because they shouldn't be given to a player who doesn't understand what it means to be a magicker on Zalanthas.  Muls and half-giants are karma options because they begin with an unbelievable amount of power, without having to build up a character.

Assassins don't fall into either of these categories.

[TripleX]

I've read ALL of your replies.  Now, a quick question: Is it okay to backstab a rat over and over again?