Backstab idea

[TripleX]

I've copy/paste the backstab help file:

SKILL_BACKSTAB

This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent.
The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the
attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully
backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will
be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's
backstab skill level.

My question and idea is this:  Why can't an assassin backstab during a fight? -- Assassin is familiar with all the vital locations, right?  Why can't he stab a vital location during a fight? -- In my opinion it's possible, perhaps not code wise, but it is possible.

What do you think?

[Carnage]

Because that would completely overpower assassins and take away any real need to use strategy. They would be able to just take anyone out within a few rounds using head to head combat and backstabbing during it, including warriors.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hrmph....

It has merit, but maybe should not be called backstab...or rather, the messages should certianly be changed. I would think that perhaps you might see a message like this:
PC lunges, driving ~weapon into %opponent groin

Also, max damage would need to be halved at least, to reflect that it is NOT a clear shot. Assassins can kill you in one blow with a clear shot...

I'd say because even though an Assassin does not need to be out of sight to perform this "critical strike", they have to be at least able to make a clear attack with the attackee unsuspecting. I.E. not with their guard up and fighting, an aware target makes such a critical strike near impossible, as the strike is not one to penetrate defenses, only flesh.

Now, as far as the idea of backstab-like damage during a fight... I would say that pretty much sums up a badass warrior with excellent weapon and offensive skills. Three well-placed hits from such a warrior can kill even the hardiest, and you won't find many better ways to kill an actively defending target.

[Rindan]

If you could launch a critical strike during combat, wouldn't you simply try and make every strike a critical strike?

I think people miss the point of backstab.  The hard part about backstab is NOT finding a place to stick a knife.  Any idiot recognizes that slashing someone's throat or snapping their spine with a blow will kill a person.  Any moderately trained fool can recognize an opening in armor or a weak spot over a vital location.  Finding the actually spot to hit is easily the easiest part of the skill.  Any warrior would know ever single location that an assassin would think to stab.  Perhaps a truly skilled assassin might be able to pick out a weakness in armor better then a complete novice or might know that the liver is a nice organ to hit too, but truth be told, the picking of the spot is the easiest point.  Further, going for someone's throat or some other open area is not something just an assassin does.  Any person locked in combat is going to go for weaknesses in armor and aim for vital locations.

The hard part to a backstab is the surprise part.  The real magik behind a backstab is that you can launch your attack against that vital location without your victim noticing that it is coming, and thus keeping the victim from defending themselves.  As soon as the victim knows it is coming, then it is just a regular swing at a vital location, and anyone who could parry one of your blows normally should have no problem doing it to your 'surprise' attack that is without the surprise.

If I were to split up what the backstab skill is when you are learning it, I would say that it is 70% the act of surprising your victim, 20% how to swing that weapon, and 10% where to hit.  The where to hit is obvious.  A child with a knife could slit my throat and kill me.  The actual skill in swinging the weapon is generally simple, but things like armor might make slipping the knife through into flesh a little more challenging.  That said, if I don't defend myself and you have time to line up, a child could find a hole and push a knife through.  The real skill in backstabbing is getting to the point where you can observe the location to strike, and get the knife to that location without anyone noticing.  A child can't do that on an aware person.  For that reason, backstab is a not a skill to be used in combat against an aware opponent.

[Anonymous]

Only if 'backstabbing' during a fight had a drastically reduced chance of success and reduced damage from the backstab.

I've had people flee come back and backstab me multiple times during a fight.  Is this ok then?  At the time it felt cheesy.

[Drayab]

Fleeing and then coming back in to backstab a second time seems cheesy to me, but disengaging and then trying a backstab doesn't seem as bad. For example, say it's a two on one fight and one of the two knows how to backstab. It seems like a pretty reasonable tactic for the first guy to keep the opponent busy while the second guy tries to sneak around behind the opponent to stab him in the back.

For balance, I think you should not be able to backstab while actively engaged in combat.

[hammie2]

So the cross hilted bastard sword wielding warrior who is 10 times better than you in combat can stand still and wax you?  I say thee nay.

Flee and come back in when he doesn't see you and backstab away.  Perfectly legit to me.  Balance is also not a krathian dropping a 100 hp blast on you when you have only 90 hp.  Assassins need to be able to do what they do best which is backstab away.

[Lazloth]

I've had people flee come back and backstab me multiple times during a fight.  Is this ok then?  At the time it felt cheesy.

Flee/stab is the basic method of damage employed by virtually any rogue class on any H&S.  With the built-in delays to both movement and backstab on Arm, I doubt anyone is complaining about an issue with balance; so this discussion strictly revolves around describing someone 'leaving' the area and returning?   Well, shit, how do you treat it when someone flees from a sparring ring..?  The stabber disengages from close combat, maybe squats to scrape together a handful of sand before rushing again?

I don't see this as a problem, personally, either in mechanics or 'realism' per se.  How different is this from the guy that joins flee/hide/sap in an effort to get away when being chased down, or any other myriad of un-emoted combos?

Anyway, as to the original notion:  thumbs down.  Leave backstab right where it is.  I've played on muds where you can only stab non-injured targets, and I've played on muds where you can crit strike during combat.  Where backstab sits on Arm is pretty fine.

[flurry]

But backstab is supposed to be based on surprise, no?   So fleeing and coming right back to stab, especially repeatedly, to me seems like code abuse.    Unless it would be for some reason realistic to keep surprising the same person who's standing in one spot, being surprised over and over.

[hammie2]

Thing with backstab is that, do you know how hard it is to raise that skill?

Warriors raise their skill mighty quick, but a backstabber takes hell long to raise that skill.

[flurry]

I sympathize about that, completely.   I had a character who got sap once, and I had no idea how to practice it.   So I pretty much didn't.

[Summer]

So it takes a long time..... and? Something that can massacre someone in one hit and you want to get good at it quickly? How is that balanced?

I think backstab is fine the way it is. When you pull it off it is very, very nice maybe one more hit and the thing dies. As others have said, it is more about sneaking up on someone and slipping the weapon in unnoticed. Look at the failure message when you try it. It isn't about hitting someones throat or whatever. Everyone knows it is good to hit someone there, it's about actually hitting them there, either by sneaking up on them and getting in unnoticed or by being so good you can just run straight at them. Machine gun as opposed to sniper rifle.

[hammie2]

Perhaps we never really defined how long it actually takes to get good at backstab.  Hella Long imho is defined as maybe 10 ic years etc.

[Angela Christine]

Thing with backstab is that, do you know how hard it is to raise that skill?

Warriors raise their skill mighty quick, but a backstabber takes hell long to raise that skill.

Yeah, I guess.  But what is your point?

Some skills, like backstab, clothworking and archery, seem to take a long time and/or money to become good.  Other skills, like ride, seem to improve a little faster.  

The skills you use most usually improve the fastest.  A warrior who spends half his time sparring will become good at sparring faster than a warrior who spends 5% or 10% of his time sparring, and much faster than a warrior who never fights at all unless someone else attacks him.  If you join an organization that spends 3-4 hours of the 9 hour day sparring, your basic combat skills will improve fairly quickly, as an independant or member of a smaller organiztion it could take quite a while.  It usually isn't practical or plausible to spend half your time backstabbing or shooting arrows, and few people could afford enough matirials to spend half their time crafting even if they had the patience.  There aren't any well-known organizations that will give you a way to practice archery or backstab 3-4 hours a day.  Maybe you could start one, a group of sneaky folk who stand around trying to backstab eachother all morning.  

I suppose if you could find a way to backstab more often, backstab would improve more quickly and be more useful.  Was that your point?

AC

[Summer]

From my experience it wasn't that long to get ok at it. And I was playing a dwarf. I still don't see what the issue is. Assassins can get scarily good and yet somehow people want to have an assassin critical hit all throughout the combat? It's like having a 2 day old warrior and wondering why you still get killed by a gith. Because they are better than you. It takes a long time to get good at something. They don't churn out SAS members do they? It takes a long time to get someone that skilled at killing people.

[Anarchy]

Im not sure about everyone else, but im tried of hearing about the Asssassin and Warrior complaining so this is all im going to say  Warrior's have places like the byn to train there people killing skills - Assassins have nothing, i would sugguest - having corpses able to be "backstabbed" twice before its usless (IE - The part in Gangs of New York - where Bill
the Butcher is stabbing the pig, and showing the kill and wound locations) That would solve alot of problems, and would also be ICly done, would of course need to be done on humanoid corpses - that way i cant see how this it can be abused. I dont know many people who have rampaged killing NPC people and lived very long.

the corpse of so and so is crumpled here
*emoting*
backstab corpse
- You stab the corpse of so and so in the armpit, and note how much blood seeps out.
Look
The corpse of so and so is crumpled here, a wound in its armpit
-Backstab corpse
You stab the corpse between the ribs, probing for the lungs and heart
Look
The bloody corpse of so and so is here, several puncture wounds on it.

Or whatever, would solve problems at least

[some backstabber type]

Backstabbers don't have "nothing"
Well..in most cases there's no clanned training area for backstabbing since its considered a bad thing to use dummies for that in most cases.

But if youre with a clan that goes out on patrol you can use it on a critter once everyone else has gotten the critter half dead, that way the chance of it killing you while you fail miserably and stand there unable to do anything else is lessened

Unfortunately backstab is meant to be a "sneaky" kind of thing and if youre trying to be a "sneaky" kind of character youre not going to want to let your clan know you can do it. So it can be difficult. Just gotta find the right people to hook up with.

I wouldn't know about assassins being all-powerful once they hit some magic mark, since I have almost 30 days on my PC and still can't kill anything using backstab, or even get a good dent in anything with it. At almost 30 days I wouldn't even try on most of the stuff out there unless I had someone WAY more offensively powerful than I am going at it first. Maybe I'll get better, who knows. At least we have other combat skills we can get fairly decent at in the meantime, plus we have non-combat skills we can use, especially if we pick non-combat sub-guilds.

But yeah that one skill..its frustrating especially when everyone says how great we're supposed to be and I can't even make a "little" critter's throat gurgle after 27 days, 12 hours of play.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Someone pointed out directly after my post that the crit strike during combat is really kinda over-achieving, so I have to say that that changed my mind on that matter.

However, this is where I stand on this. ATM, backstab is a very difficult skill to raise at -all- without generally taking your character out of character to do it. Just about any kind of coded method of training is frowned upon, as far as I know, other than another person teaching you or backstabing critters. Backstabbing critters is kind of abuse to me, because an assassin, if that is why he took the guild in the first place, should be learning to kill people, not animals. Animals are far different than people.

What I believe should perhaps be done is to link the backstab skill to the piercing weapons skill, offensive skill, sneak skill, and hide skill. There would be no way to train backstab, but instead, it would be an skill which takes the numbers of those four skills and divides the sum by four in order to determine the final skill in backstab.

********************************
Example:

90 = Piercing weapons
37 = Sneaking skill
50 = Hide skill
81 = Offensive skill
---------------------------------------
258 is the sum.
4 skills to divide it by.
---------------------------------------
64 = is your final backstab skill (64.5 rounded down).
********************************

I think this would eliminate a lot of this arguing and so forth, and would force people to focus more on what they would IRL focus upon. It would also eliminate a vast amount of the twinkiness that is almost forced upon players who wish to become killers.

Currently, however, I would mention that there are probably a few master killers in the world who might teach you were you to seek them out through the proper channels. Also, assassins do not HAVE to have backstab to be killers. If you haven't trained backstab a bunch, but have done some of the other things that an assassin can do (whatever they are, I am no authority on this), I am sure that you could be quite deadly. I know rangers who can not fight hand to hand can still do some hurt to you, in at least two ways that I know of...maybe more.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

But yeah that one skill..its frustrating especially when everyone says how great we're supposed to be and I can't even make a "little" critter's throat gurgle after 27 days, 12 hours of play.

I would like to say, however, that you are still alive after 27 days and 12 hours of play. Being weak in the physical department means that you had to pay more attenttion to your limitations. Many folks do not make it to 27 days.

[some backstabber person]

It isn't just getting good at backstab though. Without getting into OOC mechanics that people shouldn't know about..

A general reminder that some skills branch from other skills. And you can't branch until you're good at something else. If you're looking for that OTHER thing..if that's the part of the coded skill stuff that you're trying to RP...

So you see what I mean? I'm not necessarily even trying to be good at backstabbing, for the sake of using the backstab skill.

Therein lies the frustration.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

True enough. For the sake of that skill, however, I would still propose the branch system works, but that it follows my guidelines. And that skill would also follow some criteria.

[Rindan]

Claims that there exist no orginizations where you can learn to be an assassin is kank shit.  Saying that there is no place as easy as the Byn to learn to be an assassin might be true.  The Byn is not a place to learn to be an assassin.  There are however a lot of other places where you can learn.  I know of two for sure, and I would assume that all other major houses noble and merchant can find room for an assassin.  Everyone needs someone who can kill in such a manner.  It might take work to get in as an assassin.  You can't just show up and say "hey, I want to be an assassin!!!!".  If you really want to play an assassin, I suggest considering what places would happily take such a person, and figuring out how to achieve such a rank in that orginization.

[hammie2]

The topic was getting backstab up to par there which you  totally missed.  at any rate, I like venom's idea about tying all of those skills together.  Then again we have absolutely no idea if that is already the case.

[Carnage]

The topic was getting backstab up to par there which you totally missed.

Ironically enough, the topic was about using backstab during combat.

As either Venomz or someone else said in this thread or another, the three fighting classes are well balanced. A warrior takes someone down with straight up toe to toe combat. A ranger takes someone down with a bit of poison and maybe some archery. An assassin takes someone down by watching, waiting, and planning. If you want to be able to take people out in a straight out fair fight, be a warrior.

[Stroker]

Training Backstab? Find a teacher, and start learning. It may not be easy ... but what is on Zalanthas?

Forgive me this, as I speak generally, trying to encompass all my thoughts on the matter.

Frankly, I'm glad Backstab is difficult. Why? Because if it weren't we'd have multiple people running around slaughtering others. I swear it. Backstab is a very powerful piece of code. And it should be difficult. How many people do you get to practice killing in a lifetime? Not too many, I should think. You wanna assassinate people? Then do it. Pick a target, and, depending on your location, buy a liscense. Then good luck to ya. But if ya die... oh well. Such is the way of a killer. If you're looking to kill others, make sure you are comfortable with the fact that some people don't want to die, and that they will Kill you in an attempt to prolong their life. This is the essence of an assassin: Not to get killed on the job.

And don't get me wrong, guys, I love assassins and rogue-types. So chill.
But if you're going or considering going toe-to-toe with multiple warrior-class PCs or NPCs, I don't think you should hold onto the Assassin mantle.

Here's the major point. Assassin's are generally not great fighters. They don't kill their targets by beating them down. They use single attacks, or they use some other crafty means. They generally tend not to fight for too long. (Ninja's were never about kicking ass for fifteen minutes, using their best and flashiest moves. Those are movie ninjas. They are about killing and getting the hell out.) That's it. Sneak up, strike, poison, trap, possibly knock them out, and kill. Then run. Hide. Wait. Patience is the key, here. Running screaming up to a victim and trying to score critical blows during combat isn't going to prove very effective.

This is also why I believe that Backstabbing a target, fleeing, re-entering and backstabbing again is perfectly viable. That's what they do. They don't stick around. But they make sure the job gets done. If someone backstabs you, and you survive? If you're stronger, chase them down and keep attacking. If you're weaker, run. Run like mad. Because, if I were an assassin, I would be sure as hell I made my target dead. Even if I have to strike, run off, hide, and wait for another chance to strike.

There's no reason to attempt a backstab during combat.

Also, most backstabbers should be astute at deception. Stealth. Distance from a target. Afraid the backstab won't work? Here's an idea:
Work on your thrown weapons. Easier to Train. Find some nice poison. Or make your own, eventually. You are a killing machine. Poison a knife, throw it, hide, then backstab. Poofda. Multiple levels of your assassination skills have been utilized. And, likely, if you're smart, you're gonna end up winning the day.

But don't complain about backstab. You're all capable players. Backstab isn't the only way out of these things. Branch Sap. Knock 'em out, drag 'em off, then kill. Worked, didn't it?

Here's another idea: Work in groups. Assassins are not all loners. Many of them have stuck together. Most often, however, these assassins were not working for mere money, but for a cause, and the target must have been brought down for the cause. (Example: Japanese noble riding through humble rice field is suddenly stabbed from behind, soon after stabbed from a different direction, until he dies bleeding in the road, his 4 Korean assailants scampering off into the stuff of legends, in an attempt to end Japanese occupation of Korea).

I think the major thing behind this is, we want our characters to seem flashy and god-like, smiting those who stand before us in any situation. Don't become a victim of pride. If you get good at backstab, good. If you haven't, because the RP hasn't allowed it, then deal. Besides, the purpose of the game is not merely to kill. For an assassin character, it is to kill those who need to be killed, for whatever reason, in an attempt to further story.

I love assassin's. But let's face it, guys. We aren't warriors.
We're sneaks. With knives. We're not a warrior class.
We know how to kill.
Killing is a linked, yet different aspect of fighting.
Fight less. Kill more.

Besides, it's more terrifying if you kill swiftly and undetected.
Instead of lashing out, trying to backstab (blank) Nobles' guard in an all-out fight-for-your-life.

You shouldn't be struggling when you make your mark.
They should.

I dunno. Just my thoughts.
Don't punish me.

(And I got More assassin ideas, too. Muahahahahaha!)

Shade!
-J

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, Tobin embodies the principles of an assassin perfectly. Great post.

(PS: I still think my method of equating backstab would make the skill less twinkish, but that is simply my opinion.)

[Dakkon Black]

I think I like the averaging out on the skills to get backstab yet if you practiced those that woudnt make you good at killin. Sigh, Ill just go back to killing these rats.

[Summer]

I think that in most cases, running from combat only to come back to the location and try backstabbing again is pretty unrealistic. If someone tries to backstab me, be sure that I will be on the lookout for it again. In the wild this is especially true, I'm not going to say, oh look, that elf just tried to backstab me, then he ran a whole league away. Oh wait, he is running back... Ok, I'll turn my back so he can backstab me again.

[Carnage]

Yeah, I'd consider a flee; e; backstab; flee; e; backstab kind of thing to be incredibly lame. It's about as bad as a warrior spamming disarm, kick, and bash.

[Summer @ work]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic there... I think you are a bit, however I don't quite a agree with you there. The warrior's combat skills are skills that are designed to be used in combat. They have delays built in to them already, perhaps those delays should be longer, but thats another matter. If a wrrior was to use those skills in combat I think thats fine, it's part of the reason I am afraid of warriors!

Using your coded skills in combat like that however still makes sense from a RP perspective. What doesn't make sense to me is in a wilderness setting trying to backstab, then fleeing (each square covers quite a lot of distance right?) then moving back in again and having another go. It just doesn't work for me from a RP perspective. In a city setting where there are more virtual people around and places for someone to sneak up on you I can see it happening a little easier, however I still think it is a bit dodgy, so I probably wouldn't do it.

Each to their own though, I'm not the best at roleplaying, so if people feel it works for them then thats up to them.

[Carnage]

Actually, I was being serious. I don't have a problem with a warrior kicking a a few times over a long fight, but spamming it is just something I'd mark down as cheap and lame. It's not the sort of thing someone would write in and complain about but it doesn't exactly make you look like the best of players if you're just spamming in the skills.

Backstab has delays coded in, too.
And besides, hit and run tactics have been implemented throughout the ages, here on earth. They've evolved into Guerilla Warfare and the like.
So, I don't think the arguments for running off and hiding being lame are that valid.
If I'm supposed to kill some uber warrior, and all I have is a knife, and he's got years of training in dealing with people trying to kill him directly, and whippity-cool bash, disarms, and kicks at his disposal, I'm sure as hell not going toe to toe with the guy.
In that case it's David Vs. Goliath, and if Goliath doesn't run, and he dies, it's his own damned fault. However, If david goes toe to toe with Goliath and dies, it's David's damned fault.
If you can't detect what's trying to kill you, then you have the problem, sadly. It goes both ways. I'm willing to bet most Warriors would have field-days fighting an assassin head on.
Besides, fleeing, returning, and backstabbing isn't really all there is to it.
If you're backstabbed, attacked, and someone comes charging in at you, again, then the assassin's at fault.
I'm talking more:
backstab; flee; e; n; sneak; w; s; backstab; flee
If you don't see it coming, then you don't see it coming. Furthermore, it does give you plenty of time to react as far as 'combat' situations go. Even if the guy has it all macro'd out or whatever, there are still delays. Movement delays, backstabbing delays, etc.
Besides, if they're just rushing backstabs out, it shouldn't be entirely too difficult to see one coming, if they aren't hidden.

Do you guys have tons of assassins coming after you, or what?

As far as the wilderness goes, Okay.
If yer out there and some guy sneaks up and stabs you and runs off, then there are a few things to consider. If he comes right back, I think you've got initiative, and should get to smacking him pretty quick.
But, then, keep in mind, also that many assassins in the course of time have been from the middle-eastern, desert-like countries. It is possible to hide in a desert. But yeah, that might be cutting it a bit too close.

But consider that there is a delay for hide, and a delay for backstab. Also, most assassins shouldn't be all toooo great hiding outside the city walls. But, you never know.

Really, I think it's a toss-up.
I think in the thick of it, most of us would flip out and do whatever it took to try to survive. Most of us, anyway. The warrior-type would bash, kick, and disarm away, and the assassin... well. WHo knows. Flee, backstab, etc. Some play nice, some play a little nastier.

Summer says she fears warriors becaus of their skills in combat, which, yeah, I fear and respect those skills as well. But everyone seems to resent the assassin's skills to backstab. It should be feared and respected just as much as the warrior's. They're two different beasts, those two, with different methods.

The assassin is dangerous not because he should be able to flat out kick your teeth in, but that he could kill you without you knowing he was about to. The wise assassin wouldn't be hasty about going after a now-fully-aware victim, but, then, fools rush in.

In closing, I think all of it is fine. The unfortunate part is, once you try to put 'limitations' on sensitive stuff like this, where does it stop? I'm sure those who've worked on the code thought it through a bit, and I trust in their judgement. Warriors have delays, Assassin's have Delays. Rangers can shoot arrows or something, ...not so sure about the magic stuff, some people can knock your ass out and kill you like that.

It's all personal preference. I think we all have some general thought about how things 'should' be. But most of the time, I think we let our thoughts get too subjective and biased for the survival of our characters. So debates like this will never cease, I don't think. But I'm gonna end my side of it by saying:
I really don't think it's that big of a problem.
If you've got assassin's coming after you, you might have bigger problems than just them. Think about it.

PEACE!  (Funny hearing that in a post about killing and stuff, huh? Oh well. )
-J

[Dan]

I think an assassin's throwing ability is much scarier. Easier to train, can be stealthy and deadly while not toe-to-toe as it were. You pretty much give up five rounds at least after a backstab, five rounds in which the warrior will likely knock your ass around.

I remember one instance where I had an assassin who was pretty much trapped in a fight against a few people. No where to really run, almost a no win situation. Could have turned my way had I done things differently, but would also have been less realistic. I hid, emoted jumping behind a couch and threw a knife, ran, and threw a knife. Took one backstab shot at someone as they tried to subdue me, throwing out an emote first. I'll leave everything else out for fear of giving anything too IC away.

I think that its one thing to say what is right or wrong while your not in the moment, and another completely while you -are- the character in a deadly situation.

[Anonymous]

I hid, emoted jumping behind a couch and threw a knife, ran, and threw a knife.

Hasn't hiding while in plain view of people who are obviously watching you been given the rubber stamp of bad form?

[Dan]

Not when they wern't in the same room as me CRW. Moving south and east then hiding isn't bad form in my opinion. They came through looking for me, but didn't check behind the couch. It was simply an example, and im sure everyone makes mistakes from time to time, even though this wasn't one as far as im concerned.

[Anonymous]

Not when they wern't in the same room as me CRW. Moving south and east then hiding isn't bad form in my opinion.

Gotcha.  I thought you were in the same room and hid while three people were staring at you.

[Dan]

Heh, nah.

That really is the rubber stamp of bad form. Usually if I hide and someone scans, looks at me I will type 'eq' and become visible for everyone else as well. If one person looks at you, usually someone else is following their gaze, or easily could. Hiding is iffy at times, but I figure if you see them walk in, then don't see them, you lost sight of them in a crowd, or something like this.

[ShaLeah]

I'll say this before, I'll say it again (yes, even though no one listens to me).

Assassins should be a karma guild. A maxed assassin is positively scary and having died once to a twink-ass backstabbing assassin newbie, I think it's waaaaay too powerful a guild to be given to just anyone.

The only assassin I've played was a weakling but I know from reading the forum and ooc discussion that older assassins would not hesitate to take down a templar and his guard.  Don't you find that scary?

ShaLeah
-who does indeed find that scary.

[Carnage]

And besides, hit and run tactics have been implemented throughout the ages, here on earth. They've evolved into Guerilla Warfare and the like.

Guerilla warfare is NOT attacking for five seconds, running away, attacking, running away for another five seconds, and attacking again. There's an exceptionally big difference. Despite what you think, just because there are code delays doesn't make you right. Backstab is an -amazing- skill, and you even agreed in an earlier post that it was powerful. The entire tactic seems like a pathetically hack and slash thing to do and unrealistic and basically playing by the code.

ICly you're stabbing someone hard, then running away, then coming back when they're STILL aware and just as ready to defend themself as if they were in combat and doing it again. What's your excuse for running away and coming back again? 'I'm going to catch them off guard after just fighting them 10 seconds ago'? No, it may not be bug abuse but I can't see that as the sort of thing that's going to get you karma. I put it right there with hiding as soon as someone comes into a room and they can't look at you due to the delay.

I don't resent an assassin's ability to backstab. I recognize that it's the backbone of the assassin. However, there's more to an assassin than having to rely on backstab and resort to cheap, play-by-the-code tactics to kill someone.

Now what I see as being a good way to use backstab more than once on a person is

>backstab dude

Fight fight fight spam

>flee west

You flee, heading west!

>hide

You find a good place to hide.

Dude arrives from the west.

Dude looks around.

Dude scans the area intently.

Dude walks down the road slowly, eyes darting around carefully.

>:leaps out from a thin alleyway, thrusting in at ~dude as he passes

>backstab dude


'Zat cool? If you corner them to get them to walk that way, or if they try to follow you... you can do such a thing, all part of the assasin waiting game.

Guerilla warfare is NOT attacking for five seconds, running away, attacking, running away for another five seconds, and attacking again. There's an exceptionally big difference.

Agreed. I wasn't being literal.

Despite what you think, just because there are code delays doesn't make you right. Backstab is an -amazing- skill, and you even agreed in an earlier post that it was powerful. The entire tactic seems like a pathetically hack and slash thing to do and unrealistic and basically playing by the code.

I'm not saying 'I'm' right at all, first off. Secondly, I do -not- agree or condone to repeat backstabs in hastful manners. I -do- agree that hitting a target hard, running off and hiding, and making a slowy way back to the target -is- a viable assassination tactic, however unfair it seems to the victim. I'm not for code abuse or bug abuse at all. And, frankly, Maybe assassin characters Should have a prerequisite of karma.

I am arguing for the validity of running off after a backstab, looping around and attempting again, but -NOT- for backstab spam.

To clear things up, here's what I would call 'acceptable'. If you disagree, and if I'm 'wrong' then so be it. But I would prefer not getting chewed out for it, please. These are just thoughts and ideas. For all I know, maybe someone COULD stab me in the back, and as soon as I turned around, they'd be behind me, stabbing me again. Anyway:

The unaware victim stands, staring at far off distance, admiring architecture.

<backstab victim>

<fight initiates due to code>

<flee>

<(direction; direction; direction; {wash, rinse, repeat as desired})>

<hide>

<sneak>

<stalk your way back to victim, working your way around from another direction, with all luck (but, by this time, the target should be moved, right? If they haven't it's kinda... well... their problem)>

<backstab victim>

Emotes and the like in between as you see fit.

And why come back? To get the job done. You just FAILED a one-hit, and you may not get another chance. You HAVE to do something, now. It's how you do it that counts, but now it MUST be done. Before you backstabbed the first time, you could have waited days. Weeks. However long, to kill this person. But now? He might have seen enough to recognize you. He's gonna tell someone, you can be sure of that. Now you must finish your job by any means possible. Not to do so is too dangerous for you.

The fact is, even if you are aware someone is trying to kill you, and you are searching for them, you may never see another attack coming. And, in my opinion, that is completely acceptable. You don't become omnipotent to hostility if you're attacked. You may become more aware, most likely a bit frantic, if not ill at ease, and more watchful, but you are still susceptable to the same attack. Especially if the other person is more skilled than you are. The argument here being that although you may know IC that you are in the middle of an assassination, that you cannot control your skill, and neither can the assassin. If the other outmatches you, then who are you, or anyone, to say that you 'would' have seen them? How would you know what you would have seen? Would have expected. Perhaps you wouldn't expect -another- attack, since surely you're now completely aware of danger. You can't bypass the skills. And I don't doubt that people can hide very well from others even if they're strung out and watchful. Sometimes making people -too- watchful/frantic is an excellent way of getting them to do something stupid, and open themselves up for an attack.

I don't resent an assassin's ability to backstab. I recognize that it's the backbone of the assassin. However, there's more to an assassin than having to rely on backstab and resort to cheap, play-by-the-code tactics to kill someone.

I agree, fully. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the previous posts. I don't think doing what you've described is 'kosher' RP. It makes me wince, because one assassin doing that makes all the OTHER assassins look like twinks. When we're not all.

Backstab is powerful. Backstab is one of the primaries. Backstab is easily construed as cheap because, I think, it is so underhanded. But, personally, I'd spank backstabbing spammers too. Just to clear things up.

And maybe I'm being a little sensitive, here, but I would appreciate not being aggressively retorted. You pointed a proverbail finger at me, directly. These are just ideas. I'm not saying I'm right, at all, or that you should agree. These are my just my ideas and how I am viewing the situation. Furthermore, I did say 'evolved' into Guerilla Warfare and the -like-. That was not a statement to indicate the be-all-end-all relationship between hit-and-runs in general. It was to indicate that the general idea is not significantly fantastical or unheard of.

I don't post for a sense of worth, or for the argumentative factor.
I post because maybe my ideas will branch other ideas, which could lead to good things for the game; Hopefully ceasing arguments, and the sense of feeling cheated.

I just hope these posts make assassin players aware, others aware, and further the depth of good RP for everyone.

So, like I said before, don't punish me.
You don't have to agree, but I started my posts and continue my posts directed to no-one in particular, and I would appreciate a little more consideration as far as that goes. You made valid points, and I respect that, absolutely. And it's not that big of a deal at all; I really didn't feel the need to post to this thread, again, but because of the beginning of your post, I felt ill-at-ease and rather pushed into a sort of 'defense'.
And that's not something I like.

Anyhow. It's all good.

Peace.
-J

[hammie2]

I don't find hiding in a room like that bad rp at all if your life is in danger.  Emote jumping into a shadow, or behind a couch like was mentioned earlier. What I find as bad rp is someone running and fleeing when their wounds are so dang severe that an arm or a leg would drop off if they took 4 steps, however, they move the entire length of a city while in that condition.

[ShaLeah]

What I find as bad rp is someone running and fleeing when their wounds are so dang severe that an arm or a leg would drop off if they took 4 steps, however, they move the entire length of a city while in that condition.

I don't agree with this at all. Adrenaline is a powerful thing, desperation for survival is the same. People have crawled miles to survive, cut off limbs, turned on their attackers and all sorts of unbelievable stuff just to survive.
I think it's perfectly feasable to do anything you can to live until your last breath, including climbing that shield wall.


ShaLeah
-who still thinks assassins should be a karma guild.

[Stroker]

Not to mention people of Zalanthas have greater endurance than us, puny earthlings.

[Gorobei]

Not to mention that gravity is obviously lower on Zalanthas, so it would be a lot easier.  :wink:

[hammie2]

Still like to point out the fact that running across an entire city while in that condition is completely impossible.  Blood loss is enough at that point to die from massive wounds.

If that extra boost of energy was so dang good to take you that far, while running full tilt, it would probably be a karma level skill.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I don't agree with this at all. Adrenaline is a powerful thing, desperation for survival is the same. People have crawled miles to survive, cut off limbs, turned on their attackers and all sorts of unbelievable stuff just to survive.
I think it's perfectly feasable to do anything you can to live until your last breath, including climbing that shield wall.


ShaLeah
-who still thinks assassins should be a karma guild.

Adrenaline lasts about an upwards of five seconds.  If you aren't safe by that time, then you are completely and irrevocably fucked.  And yes, you might be able to crawl for miles when you were injured.  But I garuntee you that if somebody was chasing you and trying to kill you, then you wouldn't be able to outrun them.

The real problem is that its too easy to escape as it is, and if you are going to ignore IC realism just to do whatever it takes to survive, then you are abusing the game.

Now as for assassins.  If you think backstab is incredibly overpowered, then you must not realize that a warrior who gets to spar alot could easily do 30-50 damage by opening up an attack on an unsuspecting target who is mounted or hasn't drawn their weapons.  Probably at only 10-20 days of playing time.  How's that for a sneak attack?  With the backstab skill, an assassin would probably need over twice that amount of playing time to pull off the same feat.

Magickers are karma options because they shouldn't be given to a player who doesn't understand what it means to be a magicker on Zalanthas.  Muls and half-giants are karma options because they begin with an unbelievable amount of power, without having to build up a character.

Assassins don't fall into either of these categories.

[TripleX]

I've read ALL of your replies.  Now, a quick question: Is it okay to backstab a rat over and over again?

[Stroker]

Yeah! Go nuts.