Punctuation and Capital Letter

[ShaLeah]

If we auto capitalize, how are we gonna tell difference between dwarves and really short, fat humans when they have their hood up?!?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Shuuut up. Gawd.

wat?

[Wug]

I think emotes auto-punctuate. I'm not really sure why that isn't true for says. I don't know how the code works but I'll ask around.

Perfect grammar isn't necessary, but if you see someone that habitually leaves out punctuation or capitalization, send in a player complaint. A quick, "Hey this character seems to not use capital letters or punctuation. Maybe they're a newbie and don't know any better." will alert us to the problem.

[Suhuy]

Perfect grammar isn't necessary, but if you see someone that habitually leaves out punctuation or capitalization, send in a player complaint. A quick, "Hey this character seems to not use capital letters or punctuation. Maybe they're a newbie and don't know any better." will alert us to the problem.

Wait, are we really talking about filing in a complaint because someone doesn't end their sentences with a full stop? Can you imagine, as a player, getting an e-mail that says we've been notified by several other people in game that you don't punctuate properly?

I'm sorry, I definitely appreciate everything that the staff are doing here, but that would just come across as very heavy handed and if I were a new player I'd be more likely to just get offended and leave than accept the criticism. Plus, as another poster mentioned earlier, maybe they have a disability and, frankly, doing things like skipping punctuation here and there actually makes it possible for them to indulge in their favorite hobby (this game). Emotes do auto punctuate. I'm in favor of say, tell, talk and psi, etc., doing the same. However, and with respect, I'm not in favor of actually filing in reports against people who don't punctuate properly. Just one player's opinion.

[i can haz mantis]

I'm not in favor of actually filing in reports against people who don't punctuate properly.

Nor am I. In fact, I do not believe I ever would unless they were t41kin6 lik3 thi5 in th3 64m3. But even then, too much of my time being taken up by reporting for someone's typing/grammar skills, which IMO is a kinda douchey thing to do. I've ooc'd to give tips about grammar in game, but if they don't change and it's just OMG TOO HORRIBLE for me to bear then I just play around them as little as possible. Doesn't mean that I don't interact with them at all, just that I'll probably keep interactions brief.

[Wug]

Perfect grammar isn't necessary, but if you see someone that habitually leaves out punctuation or capitalization, send in a player complaint. A quick, "Hey this character seems to not use capital letters or punctuation. Maybe they're a newbie and don't know any better." will alert us to the problem.

Wait, are we really talking about filing in a complaint because someone doesn't end their sentences with a full stop? Can you imagine, as a player, getting an e-mail that says we've been notified by several other people in game that you don't punctuate properly?

That's not really how we deal with complaints. Player complaints aren't always a bad thing. If someone is not using punctuation, they may not know it is necessary. We can gently remind them. Everybody is happy. That's usually all it takes.

[Suhuy]

Perfect grammar isn't necessary, but if you see someone that habitually leaves out punctuation or capitalization, send in a player complaint. A quick, "Hey this character seems to not use capital letters or punctuation. Maybe they're a newbie and don't know any better." will alert us to the problem.

Wait, are we really talking about filing in a complaint because someone doesn't end their sentences with a full stop? Can you imagine, as a player, getting an e-mail that says we've been notified by several other people in game that you don't punctuate properly?

That's not really how we deal with complaints. Player complaints aren't always a bad thing. If someone is not using punctuation, they may not know it is necessary. We can gently remind them. Everybody is happy. That's usually all it takes.

In principle, I agree with you here, Wug. Nine times out of ten, in life, it's simply about how you phrase things. But because the issue being complained about (punctuation) is such a minor detail, bordering on, I'm sorry to say, being just plain nitpicky, I think even the most diplomatically phrased e-mail sent to a player would result in their being offended. All the pleases and the thank yous and "You're Doing Great But It's Just This One Thing" in the world won't help you, because what you're pointing out to them to fix is, well, pretty much splitting hairs. I think it's one of those things where it sounds all well and good and you may think to yourself "Well hey, I phrased this politely and everything so there's no harm done." But when you put yourself in the other person's shoes -- when you REALLY put yourself in their shoes -- you'd probably also roll your eyes and be like holy crap what's with these people on this new RPI MUD I started playing, man are they being picky!

I can think of a couple world-changing PCs from many years ago who when they began their character (the same character they rose to power with and much later became very powerful and influential) played with a complete lack of punctuation. In fact I'm just itching to say their character names but I know that's probably off limits here so I'll have to bite my tongue on this one. But what changed their style, as far as I can tell, was the playerbase serving as an active role model from which they could learn. If everyone and their brother says "His Light" and not "his light", eventually that n00b of a dwarf who clearly is on his first PC is going to start following suit and pattern himself after everyone else around him. When it comes to correcting others, the best method is to lead by example. It may sound petty to get offended at someone simply telling you to fix your punctuation, but we have to ask ourselves what's more petty, getting offended or sending a note which says "I realize you're new and you're doing a great job here but you might like to know that on this game punctuation is really important to us". I dunno dude, maybe I'm the one being picky here, but it just seems like one of those things better taught through repeat demonstration.

[Nyr]

I don't believe we've ever contacted someone solely over their inability to end a sentence with punctuation. 

Usually if someone is missing end punctuation, they're also missing middle punctuation...and capitalization...and other basic rules of grammar.  So we've definitely contacted someone over all of that TOGETHER, yes.  Especially if they're in a karma role.

[Marauder Moe]

It IS kinda weird that the game auto-capitalizes and punctuates emotes but not speech, though.

[Ouroboros]

I dunno dude, maybe I'm the one being picky here, but it just seems like one of those things better taught through repeat demonstration.

You say repeat demonstration, I say plain old elementary-grade eduction. Last I checked, I wasn't receiving a teacher's salary from Arm.

I can see both sides of this, but at the end of the day it's a text-based online story being written collaboratively. When you flip a page in the novel and the entire page, where the evil Templar is about to execute the hero, lacks punctuation and simple grammar... Well, for some it might be enough to put down the book, for others to contact the publishing house, and others to just grit their teeth and read on. But in no instance is it enjoyable.

[Suhuy]

This is a game, though, not a novel, Ouroboros. And we're not professionals submitting a book in to a publishing house. I guess it depends on the situation. I have a hard time picturing any seasoned player actually lacking punctuation, capital letters where appropriate, etc. The only instance I can see someone doing this is where they are a complete newbie. In which case, yes, leading by example is preferential to submitting a character complaint over this kind of petty minutiae. I stand by my original example of historical Arm characters who were leaders and world shakers that began with no punctuation (no capital letters, etc. etc. etc) and learned by following the rest of the playerbase's example.

I believe a humanist approach is always more appropriate to filing letters of complaint and reporting people, no matter how politely it's done. There's just so much talk of reporting people on here and so many threads about if you see a character doing X then make sure to file in a complaint. It really makes me wonder why some players come to play this game and if it's really a game in their eyes or not. In my current line of business there's a very predictable type of colleague which I encounter about 50% of the time. It's practically a personality type or syndrome. These are the obsessive compulsive rule followers who nitpick their way through everything (and the ironic thing is more work actually gets done when these people aren't present). I have to believe that people of this sort actually WANT you to make mistakes. They take delight in your tripping up so that they can correct you. They actually do not want you to do the right thing. Since I've returned to Arm in the past year and a half I've seen nothing but solid RP all the way around. I'm not saying abuse isn't out there, but I really wonder about the type of people who are expressly lying in wait for someone to abuse something so they can report it to the staff. The question has to be asked, do you ultimately want them to abuse the game? Do you ultimately want them to do something wrong so that you can leap into action? And that's a question you have to answer in your own head, I think, for yourself. You wanna file a report because someone repeatedly says "his light" and doesn't end the sentence with punctuation? Knock yourself out. Me, personally, I'll pass.

[ShaLeah]

Let's not get ridiculous and flood the request tool with player complaints every time you witness that. Let us use some uncommon sense and just state the following.

Play how you want. It's a game in the end.
Be prepared to have your (well thought out yet poorly executed) sentence get you into some shit.
Be prepared to be told to get over it if you put in too many complaints over stupid shit.

It annoys me. I won't lie. But I won't put in a complaint about it.

[Lizzie]

Suhuy, you sound very concerned about people saying "send complaints to the request tool" to people who have complaints. It's not that people should go nuts sending request tool complaints. It's that - *instead* of posting complaints here on the GDB about specific people and their specific RP mistakes - there is an actual procedure - which is via the request tool. This serves a few purposes:

1. You get to vent your frustration.
2. You vent discretely - so as not to embarrass the source of your frustration.
3. You vent discretely - so as not to draw attention to yourself as someone who complains about people.
4. *IF* the source of your frustration has actually caused a problem or committed an error or broken a rule, the appropriate people - the staff - can correct it.
5. The GDB doesn't become a dumping ground for everyone and their brother whining about each other.

So again - don't feel that we are being encouraged to complain to the staff. That's not the case. We are being encouraged to complain to staff *IF* our complaint is about someone specific, AND is significant enough that we might otherwise complain on the GDB.

The whole passive-aggressive gig is not welcome here - the "I hate it when people (you know who you are, nudge nudge wink wink) always play dwarves who never punctuate." Because everyone knows you're talking about Mansa, including Mansa, and it's just creating a cauldron of hurt feelings. Instead, send a note to the staff, telling them that you've had Mansa in several of your clans, always playing dwarves, and never punctuating, and it is distracting. You just tell the facts, and let the staff check it out and find out if Mansa is maybe a native speaker of a language whose alphabets don't have punctation, and he uses a babelfish translator to play.. or if Mansa just thinks it's amusing to play dwarves who never punctuate, and needs to be told to cut it out.

In short, it's not up to us, the players, to be judge and jury over each other. That's the staff's job, and ONLY when a player feels that *someone* should do it.


edited to add: I don't know if Mansa plays dwarves. His was just the first name that popped up in my head. I put the blame for this squarely on XD's shoulders, because it's usually his fault.