A Ranger can Dream: Derail from Half-Elf Coding discussion on "Hunt"

[Morrolan]

Ever seen the movie Thunderheart?

CROW HORSE kneels, takes a look at Ray's tracks.

You weigh one seventy-three, eh?
You're not a beer drinker; you're one
of those tofu and pilaf characters.
You wear your gun on your right hip,
but you got a backup -- a little
thirty-two, thirty-eight -- in an
ankle holster; gives you a left foot
drag. You're wearing new shoes a
little too tight on the instep, but
man they look cool, and that's what's
important, am I right?

In my dream-Armageddon, I'd like to see tracking re-coded for a whole lot more info, and that info being relative to the tracker:

The scarred, worn man crouches down and looks for tracks.

A few hours ago a humanoid moved in from the south.
 They were taller and heavier than you.
 They were heavily burdened.
 They were not well.
 They were dragging something.
Several hours ago a humanoid moved quickly to the south.
 They were taller and heavier than you.
 They were not burdened.

In terms of perception, each of these pieces of data would be tested against "hunt" independently. So a poor tracker might see:

A few hours ago a humanoid moved in from the south.
 They were taller and heavier than you.
 They were not well.

Also, in this dream world, each track would have a series of numbers attached to it:
 Age of the track
 An accumulation of effect based on weather and terrain type. For instance:
   One day of age would add one "point"
   One hour of storm would add one "point"
   Two hours of wind without storm would add one "point"

The different types of landscape would have different upper limits of point accumulation before the track disappeared. Open sand-dune would allow, say, four points before the tracks fade. Forest would allow six. Hard-packed road would allow two. Open scrub might allow seven.

That way, tracks wouldn't automatically fade in a set amount of time, but would disappear over time based on both land type and weather conditions.

Oh, I can think of so many ways to make this more complicated and cool (tracks persist based on weight and speed of movement, for instance). But I think that this would be enough.

[slvrmoontiger]

I don't see why this would be a "dream world" It actually sounds like something that a good tracker could do and see.

[Morrolan]

I don't see why this would be a "dream world" It actually sounds like something that a good tracker could do and see.

It is. But, it's also a major overhaul not just of a skill, but also of what information is stored by the game. [I suppose all the info is "stored" in the runlogs, but I mean stored in an easily-accessible way.]

[Desertman]

Hmm, I'm not sure all of that is entirely realistic.

You can already tell how tall someone is by measuring their stride. Which for the purposes of the races we have seems to fit pretty well, except for that whole half-elf looking human/elf thing that doesn't seem to fit the tracking code. But that is a different issue.

You can already tell if they are "unwell/injured".

I don't think I would care for being able to tell if they were heavily burdened or anything like that. How do I know they aren't just a fatass?

I like being able to tell if they were dragging something.

I do wish that being a better tracker yourself would make your own tracks much harder to find. Who better to hide their own tracks than a great tracker?

[Refugee]

I do wish that being a better tracker yourself would make your own tracks much harder to find. Who better to hide their own tracks than a great tracker?

This.

[slvrmoontiger]

I think being good at sneak should make it harder to find prints. Tracking has nothing to do with the ability to not leave prints just to find them.

[Desertman]

I think being good at sneak should make it harder to find prints. Tracking has nothing to do with the ability to not leave prints just to find them.

Being good at moving quietly does not mean you know the first thing about tracking, and thus, how to better prevent other trackers from seeing you. For example, a professional robber is probably really good at moving quietly, he has to be quiet while he is robbing people....but he doesn't know the first thing about tracking or how to not be tracked himself.

Tracking is the only skill I can even imagine that would have anything to do with preventing other trackers from noticing you passed through an area. Why? Because you know exactly what they will be looking for, and how to not do that.

Who would you rather have to track through a forest? A veteran tracker who knows exactly what you will be looking for him to do? Or a veteran pickpocket who can probably walk right up behind you without you noticing, but who doesn't know the first thing about tracking or being tracked?

Common sense I would think.

[slvrmoontiger]

I think being good at sneak should make it harder to find prints. Tracking has nothing to do with the ability to not leave prints just to find them.

Being good at moving quietly does not mean you know the first thing about tracking, and thus, how to better prevent other trackers from seeing you. For example, a professional robber is probably really good at moving quietly, he has to be quiet while he is robbing people....but he doesn't know the first thing about tracking or how to not be tracked himself.

Tracking is the only skill I can even imagine that would have anything to do with preventing other trackers from noticing you passed through an area. Why? Because you know exactly what they will be looking for, and how to not do that.

Interesting, however if moving silently also means you walk lighter than normal your tracks should be more difficult to find.

[Desertman]

I think being good at sneak should make it harder to find prints. Tracking has nothing to do with the ability to not leave prints just to find them.

Being good at moving quietly does not mean you know the first thing about tracking, and thus, how to better prevent other trackers from seeing you. For example, a professional robber is probably really good at moving quietly, he has to be quiet while he is robbing people....but he doesn't know the first thing about tracking or how to not be tracked himself.

Tracking is the only skill I can even imagine that would have anything to do with preventing other trackers from noticing you passed through an area. Why? Because you know exactly what they will be looking for, and how to not do that.

Interesting, however if moving silently also means you walk lighter than normal your tracks should be more difficult to find.

Tracking typically has very little to do with leaving tracks in the sense that if you are heavier your tracks are easier to see. It usually has much more to do with where you choose to walk, how you walk, and what you choose to encounter and not encounter on your chosen path.

For example, a grown man who is a veteran tracker weighs 200lbs, a small nine year old girl who knows nothing about tracking weighs 95lbs.

Just because she is lighter, and thus walking "lighter", doesn't mean she will be harder to track than the veteran tracker who is walking "heavier".

Now, would a veteran tracker probably walk slower and more carefully (sneak?) while also making the best decisions about how he moves and where he moves to prevent being tracked himself? Probably, but not necessarily.

[Barzalene]

Lighter is a figure of speech. Your mass doesn't change just how you move it. Moving quietly might leave different tracks.

[Desertman]

Lighter is a figure of speech. Your mass doesn't change just how you move it. Moving quietly might leave different tracks.

Moving slower and quieter still has nothing to do with tracking. You can move slowly and quietly through mud, but your tracks are going to be easier to see than if you ran across rocky ground full blast.

I don't want to get too IC, but, the code already takes the whole moving "differently" into account anyways. But I'm sure you already know that.

[Barzalene]

Lighter is a figure of speech. Your mass doesn't change just how you move it. Moving quietly might leave different tracks.

Moving slower and quieter still has nothing to do with tracking. You can move slowly and quietly through mud, but your tracks are going to be easier to see than if you ran across rocky ground full blast.

I don't want to get too IC, but, the code already takes the whole moving "differently" into account anyways. But I'm sure you already know that.

Wasn't thinking of code, more of kinetics. (Is kinetics the word I think I mean?)

[Morrolan]

We might think of wilderness people who can sneak also being able to hide their tracks. But I submit that many characters with wilderness sneak might also have wilderness track.

I think it makes sense to let track be used for anti-tracking. But it would require some serious coding unless it was going to be automatic.

[Desertman]

Lighter is a figure of speech. Your mass doesn't change just how you move it. Moving quietly might leave different tracks.

Moving slower and quieter still has nothing to do with tracking. You can move slowly and quietly through mud, but your tracks are going to be easier to see than if you ran across rocky ground full blast.

I don't want to get too IC, but, the code already takes the whole moving "differently" into account anyways. But I'm sure you already know that.

Wasn't thinking of code, more of kinetics. (Is kinetics the word I think I mean?)

I see what you mean and I agree, most of the time I can imagine you would want to also move slowly and carefully, and thus probably quietly, if you were trying to keep from being tracked.

But, you can also move slowly and quietly, and not know the first thing about not being tracked, and thus not do anything to prevent it.

I was just trying to say you can have one without the other, but it doesn't go both ways.

Being a good sneak shouldn't give you any bonus to being a good anti-tracker, because it just isn't inclusive in that regard.

However, if someone was a master tracker, I wouldn't have any problem with their master sneaking giving them some anti-tracker bonus as well. Just not the other way around. You would have to be a master tracker in order to get the bonus from also being a master sneaker, or not at all.

In response to Morrolan, I would imagine it would be automatic as anyone who is on foot in the desert, who was a master tracker would almost always see the value in trying to make it so that their passing went unnoticed as well by both people and monsters. The deserts of Zalanthas are not somewhere to get sloppy and leave a trail if you can help it.

[slvrmoontiger]

We might think of wilderness people who can sneak also being able to hide their tracks. But I submit that many characters with wilderness sneak might also have wilderness track.

I think it makes sense to let track be used for anti-tracking. But it would require some serious coding unless it was going to be automatic.

This was really my point here. People with the wilderness sneak ability would know where to walk, what to avoid, how not to crumple or break the grass so to speak. Don't step on sticks or twigs. That sort of thing that would obviously wreck their ability to sneak correctly. From what I can see it would be all the same thing.

[Desertman]

We might think of wilderness people who can sneak also being able to hide their tracks. But I submit that many characters with wilderness sneak might also have wilderness track.

I think it makes sense to let track be used for anti-tracking. But it would require some serious coding unless it was going to be automatic.

This was really my point here. People with the wilderness sneak ability would know where to walk, what to avoid, how not to crumple or break the grass so to speak. Don't step on sticks or twigs. That sort of thing that would obviously wreck their ability to sneak correctly. From what I can see it would be all the same thing.

You and I are in agreement. The things you are pointing out would be things you would do to prevent from being tracked ideally.

The problem is, they have nothing to do with sneak, and everything to do with tracking.

People with the wilderness sneak ability would know where to walk.

They would know where to walk, to keep from being heard, not to keep from being tracked. There is a difference. Walking in sand might be quiet, for example, but it leaves a easily followed track. However, if they are master sneakers, who don't know about/aren't concerned about tracking, they might opt to walk in the sand instead, because they aren't concerned with and don't know anything about tracking, they know about sneaking, and that is their concern.


what to avoid

They would know what to avoid to keep from being heard, not to keep from being tracked. Might those things sometimes be the same? Yes, but not always.

From what I can see it would be all the same thing.

Do you see how they aren't the same thing now?

Sometimes the things they would do while sneaking would make it harder to track them, but not always, and if they aren't good trackers, they wouldn't even be taking being tracked into consideration, their only concern would be silence. Why? Because that is what they know about, they don't know about tracking or being tracked. Their decisions would be based on moving quietly, not moving in a way to keep them from being tracked.

It might be better for them to walk in that nice quiet but easily trackable sand as previously mentioned for example, and because they don't know about tracking, they would choose that path, because that is what they know about, being silent, not tracking.

Just because you are good at moving quietly through an area, doesn't mean you are going to move through an area in a way that takes into account being tracked, in fact, you may even do things that make you easily tracked, but make you move more silently. You are a master of moving silently, and as such, you might sacrifice being easily tracked to do just that.

[Twilight]

We need more combination things like this that could use two skills together.

So a journeyman sneaker/journeyman tracker might skip leaving tracks 1/10 of the time, when they get to master they might skip leaving tracks 9/10 of the time.

That master/master, should they also be a master at riding, might cause their -mount- to not leave tracks 5/10 of the time.

That sort of thing.

[Vwest]

We need more combination things like this that could use two skills together.

So a journeyman sneaker/journeyman tracker might skip leaving tracks 1/10 of the time, when they get to master they might skip leaving tracks 9/10 of the time.

That master/master, should they also be a master at riding, might cause their -mount- to not leave tracks 5/10 of the time.

That sort of thing.

The idea of synergy between skills has been something I wanted for ages.

It seems like it would be a nightmare to code, though.

[FantasyWriter]

Make it a separate skill/movement speed.
Or make it work off sneak. I don't particularly like the idea of it working of hunt because "hunt" is observing.
You wouldn't want someone to be able to hide well just because they have really good skill_scan.

>cover
You begins covering your tracks.
Delay: At least twice as slow as sneaking. If you are mounted/have a mount following you, the delay should be at least double solo cover. Double that for each additional beast of burden. Not leaving tracks, especially in sand, is fecking hard.

[Lizzie]

Before I got to FW's post, I was thinking - a "cover" skill would add some depth to the whole sneak/hide/scan/hunt situation.

Sneaking lets you move silently and unnoticed, at the time you're doing it. Nowhere in the docs does it say, or suggest, or imply, that it is intended to not leave a trail. If I have a loaf of bread in my hand and I'm moving silently and stealthily, *someone* is going to eventually notice that trail of breadcrumbs I've left in my wake. Either a bird, or a person.

However, if I put the bread away, and actively work to cover my tracks (the tracks that exist, because my feet touched the ground), then there's a good chance of continuing forward without someone following behind.

My skin smells different, to a gortok, than a tandu's hide. I'd probably need to carry a tandu hide in my pack and rub it on a tree trunk to mask my scent from that pesky tok. If I want to give the impression that -nothing- was there, I might have to pluck the leaves off the branch that just swiped my face when I was passing, so as to physically remove any scent of my presence. And I'd have to do it in such a manner that no one would notice that the leaves were missing.

Covering tracks is not even remotely similar to moving stealthily. All movement leaves evidence of presence. If you want to pull out the realism card, check kirlian photography on an internet search. Some people are more sensitive to traces of someone else's existence than others (the trackers, for example).

So yeah I like the idea of a cover skill.

[Maso]

I like being able to tell if they were dragging something.

I do wish that being a better tracker yourself would make your own tracks much harder to find. Who better to hide their own tracks than a great tracker?

Both of those would be cool.

This would also be cool though:

I don't think I would care for being able to tell if they were heavily burdened or anything like that. How do I know they aren't just a fatass?

I kind of feel that it's less unrealistic...It's in the details...So someone who is just heavy would just leave deeper footprints, or break more twigs or whatever....The prints of someone carrying a heavy weight on their back/shoulders would be deeper in the heel than the toe, or maybe the other way around (they compensate for the weight by leaning forward). Someone carrying a weight over one shoulder might put one leg out slightly further to the side to compensate and break more twigs further out one side than the other...etc etc.

Plus tracking isn't just all about 'prints', it's about ground cover being moved, animals being scared off, spots where they took a leak (a particularly pungent smell could indicate a weakness) or a crap (how much they eat, young or old), things left behind...maybe they leave little slithers of agafari along the route because they carry a small knife that they fiddle with on a branch as a restless thing (take away, they have a knife), or spit out a herb that they are chewing that is supposed to help with festering wounds (they are wounded), or or or...there's lots of things that could be virtually included in the process of tracking that could account for knowing a whole world of stuff.

[slvrmoontiger]

Before I got to FW's post, I was thinking - a "cover" skill would add some depth to the whole sneak/hide/scan/hunt situation.

Sneaking lets you move silently and unnoticed, at the time you're doing it. Nowhere in the docs does it say, or suggest, or imply, that it is intended to not leave a trail. If I have a loaf of bread in my hand and I'm moving silently and stealthily, *someone* is going to eventually notice that trail of breadcrumbs I've left in my wake. Either a bird, or a person.

However, if I put the bread away, and actively work to cover my tracks (the tracks that exist, because my feet touched the ground), then there's a good chance of continuing forward without someone following behind.

My skin smells different, to a gortok, than a tandu's hide. I'd probably need to carry a tandu hide in my pack and rub it on a tree trunk to mask my scent from that pesky tok. If I want to give the impression that -nothing- was there, I might have to pluck the leaves off the branch that just swiped my face when I was passing, so as to physically remove any scent of my presence. And I'd have to do it in such a manner that no one would notice that the leaves were missing.

Covering tracks is not even remotely similar to moving stealthily. All movement leaves evidence of presence. If you want to pull out the realism card, check kirlian photography on an internet search. Some people are more sensitive to traces of someone else's existence than others (the trackers, for example).

So yeah I like the idea of a cover skill.

I agree with the idea of a cover skill as well. I also like the idea of it increasing time. It will also increase the drain on endurance I would imagine.

[slvrmoontiger]

I've been thinking about this long and hard. Reality wise there are other things that would work well in the hunt skill. However, they all seem like a pain in the rear.

If you've seen the tracks of say an inix you should be able to recognize and get something saying along the lines of:
This would appear to be the tracks from an inix.

Or if you've seen Joe's tracks you should see something saying:
These appear to be Joe's tracks.

In real life everyone walks differently, has different size feet, etc. Like I said the problem would be that it would be a problem to code.

[Harmless]

It'd be pretty cool if hunt could tell you what kind of boots/footwear someone was wearing, or if they're bare footprints.

Also, I wonder if we could modify the "a few hours ago" or "many hours ago" with "dark/deep tracks" vs "very light, faded tracks" or "barely visible" to suggest age, but have the amount the person weighs/was burdened affect how deep they look so that their tracks both last longer and are more difficult to determine the time of.

And, if you pass another skill check, you can ALSO get time information from other clues; whether or not new sand has begun filling in the tracks, whether or not leaves or other debris have fallen into them, etc, to give you additional age information.

Hunt is cool as is, btw, I'm really glad we have it. The "cover" skill to hide tracks suggestion is really neat also, +1 to this whole thread.