Item Material Overhaul

[Desertman]

I'm bored this morning and thought I might make a thread about something that will probably never be fixed. It would be a huge project with a questionable payoff, but, it bothers me personally, and we all know the GDB exists so Desertman can voice his personal likes and dislikes (amirite?) so here we go.

Since the beginning of time, the obsidian longsword has existed in the world of Zalanthas. There it is, being all beaituful, and shiny, and sharper than steel. It is glorious in its glossy polished luster, and fearsome in the hands of any T'zai Byn dwarf Trooper. Alas, it shouldn't exist. An obsidian sword IRL would shatter almost immediately upon impact with just about anything.

I give you exhibit A:

Real Life Obsidian Shortsword (more or less)


As you can see just by looking at this item, if you swung this like a sword and let it hit anything, it would shatter. Such is the nature of obsidian.

Now, imagine an obsidian greatsword. It would probably snap off under its own weight if lifted by the handle.

I realize I am one of the biggest voices for "This is a game, it isn't always about realism". But, I feel in some cases, we accept things that aren't realistic simply because making them realistic would be possible, but a lot of work.

This isn't only about obsidian swords. This is just a good example for what I am pushing for. I would like to see a community wide and staff-backed effort to re-write and re-work all of the items in game that are made out of unrealistic materials. It isn't a matter of taking items out of the game, it is a matter of putting items into the game in their place that make more sense.

For example, you can make a sword out of obsidian, you just have to use realistic methods for crafting such an item. Methods that actually existed at one time and were utilized in real life.

I give you the Aztec Macuahuitl Obsidian Sword.


These were well documented to have been used by the Aztecs and were extremely durable and dangerous in combat. Not in love with this thing yet? Check this out.

Pedro de Morón was a very good horseman, and as he charged with three other horsemen into the ranks of the enemy the Indians seized hold of his lance and he was not able to drag it away, and others gave him cuts with their broadswords, and wounded him badly, and then they slashed at the mare, and cut her head off at the neck so that it hung by the skin, and she fell dead.[13]

That's right, you can cut a horse's head off with this bad boy.

Also:

They used . . . cudgels and swords and a great many bows and arrows. . . . One Indian at a single stroke cut open the whole neck of Cristóbal de Olid's horse, killing the horse. The Indian on the other side slashed at the second horseman and the blow cut through the horse's pastern, whereupon this horse also fell dead. As soon as this sentry gave the alarm, they all ran out with their weapons to cut us off, following us with great fury, shooting arrows, spears and stones, and wounding us with their swords. Here many Spaniards fell, some dead and some wounded, and others without any injury who fainted away from fright. -Francisco de Auguilar, untitled account, in The Conquistadors, 139–40, 155.

You know you want one of these. Oh yes you do.

I have actually seen one example I can think of in game of a sword made in exactly this fashion, and out of obsidian. Whoever wrote that realistic item deserves some recognition for putting forth a little extra effort.

Ok, I'm done with the obsidian sword thing, you get my point. There are realistic alternatives to a lot of things that can provide us with the same end results but make for a much more immersive and argueably creative/intelligent method of crafting.

This would also apply to things like, wooden swords. You can't put a slashing edge on a piece of wood, at least not one so sharp as to realistically depict the kind of damage they do in game. Wooden swords were traditionally used to "NOT HURT" people in training. That was the only reason to make a sword out of wood. Why we try to make actual live combat weapons out of them in game completely escapes me.

.................................

The one big downfall I see to this shift in practice would be that the south just doesn't have the sort of natural resources the north has. Perhaps that is why we let them use obsidian the same way you would use other more realistic materials. Because how many bone and obsidian composite sword types can you make before they are all the same? How many bone and obsidian spears can you produce?

Obsidian is great for other things realistically. Obsidian would make the best knives and daggers in the game, and also the best cutting and scraping tools in the game. It can be very useful for jewerly and art as well. It just doesn't make good shields, large pieces of armor, or large weapons as a single piece.

Chitin gets a pass on most things, due to the fact that chitin from the sorts of creatures we are talking about in game just doesn't exist on a scale IRL to be comparable. I'm really not sure how strong, durable, and flexible, or heavy a piece of chitin from a bug the size of a minivan would be, because I can't think of any bugs that size IRL. But I know I sure would like to see those obsidian breastplates replaced with bone scale armor and chitin breastplates. Why? Because obsidian just doesn't work like that. Chitin is lightweight IRL. With the south prizing themselves on wearing lighter armors, why don't we see more chitin armored southern fighters wielding a pair of smaller but faster and more realistic obsidian blades? Chitin. Stronger than leather, but just as light, but not as strong as wooden or bone armor, which would be heavier, but more readily available in the north.

I can see in game where some attempts have been made over the years to put in just this sort of divide. But I can also see many many many examples of where we kind of took a left turn off of that path as well and just sort of put in some crazy unrealistic stuff. I can imagine this is probably because whoever was in charge at the time thought it looked cool, and it is a game, so I can see that as well.

......

I'm still going.

Way way back in the day the use of a sword was considered to be for higher ranking soldiers or even nobility. They were expensive. Even when made out of bronze they were prone to breaking much more easily than other weapons, and the common soldier/fighter was much more likely to be found using a spear, knives, axes, clubs, a bow, a shield etc. Since Zalanthas is in terms of technology is probably pre-bronze age in most cases, I can see this fitting into our world very well. It would also be much realistic in terms of utilizing the materials the world has available.




You get where I am going, and this wouldn't apply only to weapons and armor, these are just the most extreme examples I can think of.

[hatchets]

I have always assumed things were denser on Zalanthas. Thusly, Obsidian, when polished and smoothed appropriately, would not look so rugged nor be so fragile, but more prestine and solid. Though equally that idea takes a hit when so and so picks up shard, with no tool, and poof smooth as silk longsword.

[Qzzrbl]

BUT D-MAN ZALANTHAN OBSIDIAN AND EARTH OBSIDIAN ARE DIFFERENT THE BUGS ARE HUGE AND FIREBALLS ZALANTHAN OBSIDIAN JUST ISN'T AS BRITTLE BECAUSE MAGIC

THE WOOD IS THE SAME

SHAVE WITH WOOD

[Desertman]

BUT D-MAN ZALANTHAN OBSIDIAN AND EARTH OBSIDIAN ARE DIFFERENT THE BUGS ARE HUGE AND FIREBALLS ZALANTHAN OBSIDIAN JUST ISN'T AS BRITTLE BECAUSE MAGIC

THE WOOD IS THE SAME

SHAVE WITH WOOD

Yeah, this has always been the assumption I have been forced to make. You can't treat obsidian like obsidian in game. I always treat it like steel, since it functions like steel. I just wish I didn't have to.

[Delirium]

So in this thread you're arguing for more realism, in the other thread you're arguing for punching critters because Zalanthas is not the real world.

I'm not against more primitive and desert-appropriate materials and weapons (and clothes: Victorian England gowns do not belong in zalanthas).

But it would be a HUGE overhaul. Huge.

[Lizzie]

I kind of get where d-man is coming from, in a backward way.

I wondered - why don't we have steel? What can it do, that obsidian can't do? Or maybe - what can it do *better* than obsidian can do? Obsidian is sharper than steel, and currently, it does not shatter like obsidian, but instead, keeps its sharpness and its shape like steel (with exceptions). In the right, skilled hands, it can hack a bahamet to death, just like we imagine steel would be able to do.

So why bother making steel this mysteriously super-powerful thing, when compared with obsidian, it isn't all that and a bag of chips? Why is the fact that steel is rare, such a big deal, when we have obsidian and chitin?

Electric light-bulbs are rare too, but no one cares because we have glow crystals. Lots of things that are valueable in real life, are rare in Zalanthas, but no one cares, in-game, because everyone in-game has learned to adapt to what they -do- have. The world of Zalanthas is self-sufficient. They don't -need- steel for anything, they don't -need- electric light bulbs, or automatic dishwashers, or velcro shoe clasps.

So what's so great about steel, that anyone would care in-game that it's rare? I know OOCly it's a marvel of wonderfulness that we really can't live without. But Zalanthas isn't the real world, and our characters are the ones living in it. So what is it that our -characters- are thinking, about steel, that makes them drop their jaws when they see a templar wield a steel stiletto, while their character is wielding a massive, two-handed spiked obsidian mace?

[Qzzrbl]

I dunno. I kinda dig that steel and metals at large are mega rare and seen as some uber-mystical things.

Largely because the rarity of metal keeps the world low-tech.

[Lizzie]

I dunno. I kinda dig that steel and metals at large are mega rare and seen as some uber-mystical things.

Largely because the rarity of metal keeps the world low-tech.

I'm not asking why is it rare though. I'm asking why our characters would care that it's rare.

[Qzzrbl]

I dunno. I kinda dig that steel and metals at large are mega rare and seen as some uber-mystical things.

Largely because the rarity of metal keeps the world low-tech.

I'm not asking why is it rare though. I'm asking why our characters would care that it's rare.

Because generally only templars and nobles have access to it, and they're better than us.

Must make it special, right?

[Desertman]

Lizzie's point is really that with obsidian acting like RL steel, why would we care about steel in game?

We already have an item that acts like steel as we know it.

I also see Qzz's point that, "It is rare and the celebrities like it, so it must be awesome."

I agree with both points.

[Lizzie]

Lizzie's point is really that with obsidian acting like RL steel, why would we care about steel in game?

We already have an item that acts like steel as we know it.

I also see Qzz's point that, "It is rare and the celebrities like it, so it must be awesome."

I agree with both points.

Almost exactly what I'm saying. Except - that in the matter of sharpness, obsidian is *superior* to steel. And since it doesn't shatter like real-world obsidian shatters - that makes it equal to steel in durability, in-game.

[hatchets]

I have no idea how good steel in the game is, I can only assume, in its mythologicalness that it surpasses the goodness that obsidian presents itself as.

[Qzzrbl]

Not to mention, given its rarity, many commoners would have no idea that steel is better/worse than obsidian.

They probably see it as some crazy sharpenable, unbreakable material that's a billion times better than anything ever.

::edit::

(i.e., pretty much what hatchets said)

[lordcooper]

Why do people make such a fuss over champagne when we have cider that does the exact same thing?

Alternatively: Zalanthan steel is also not Earth steel.

[Lizzie]

Why do people make such a fuss over champagne when we have cider that does the exact same thing?

No idea at all. I never understood that either. I much prefer Manischewitz Concord Grape to Moët & Chandon. Champagne is just a whole lot of weird-tasting bubble-liquid that makes me burp with every sip.

Alternatively: Zalanthan steel is also not Earth steel.

I can accept that. So the question is only somewhat adjusted: Since it's so rare, why would characters care? No one ever sees it being USED for anything. They can't miss what they don't know about. Are there fables or myths or legends about steel? The only steel thing that is widely known about, is the dragon outside Allanak. And that thing doesn't DO anything. It just sits there, being steel.

[Desertman]

Kind of taking a right turn here. Items being made of realistic/unrealistic materials.

We can all agree I think that some things hold value only in our minds and because we see them as being rare, even if they are functionally maybe not as good, or only marginally better than readily available items.

[Qzzrbl]

Can we get off all this nonsense about steel and get back to how awesome it would be if materials and items IG actually made sense?

[Yam]

Most of the longsword descriptions already make look like non-Western swords.


   

A three cord long shard of black obsidian has been chipped into a narrow
leaf shape and then set into a bone hilt to form this longsword. The edges
of the blade are carefully sharpened to make it a solid slashing weapon,
and the handle has been wrapped with brown leather to provide a firm grip.

A medium-long piece of black obsidian, chiseled into a narrow slashing
blade. A leather strap is wrapped around the base to form the grip. The
blade is heavily worn, and shards of obsidian have clearly been lost from
its length.

They obviously aren't perfectly straight traditionally western longswords.

[Desertman]

Most of the longsword descriptions already make look like non-Western swords.


   

A three cord long shard of black obsidian has been chipped into a narrow
leaf shape and then set into a bone hilt to form this longsword. The edges
of the blade are carefully sharpened to make it a solid slashing weapon,
and the handle has been wrapped with brown leather to provide a firm grip.

A medium-long piece of black obsidian, chiseled into a narrow slashing
blade. A leather strap is wrapped around the base to form the grip. The
blade is heavily worn, and shards of obsidian have clearly been lost from
its length.

They obviously aren't perfectly straight traditionally western longswords.

Agreed, most of them typically don't look like western longswords. They would still shatter like obsidian, if they were coded to be like actual obsidian, regardless of shape.

[Nyr]

We're probably not going to overhaul materials anytime soon; this was something that was considered quite heavily in the crafting process for JavaMUG, however.  In fact, I contributed many hours of work towards just that end myself, working on hardness scales and developing relative scales of flammability, hardness, density, etc for every material that would be in the game, from vegetable to mineral.  It's a JavaMUG consideration for sure, but not so much for the existing codebase.

At best we can try to limit or retcon areas where there are unrealistic weapons or armor; we occasionally do that anyway.  I don't foresee a project specifically devoted to that at this point in time, but maybe later in the year or next.

...but no, obsidian is not the equivalent of real life steel.  No, it is not equal to steel in durability in-game.  It doesn't shatter (as often as you might think it should, perhaps?) because the code isn't that complex (in those cases).  As mentioned above, we can do what we can to limit unrealistic uses of obsidian in that context.

[Desertman]

We're probably not going to overhaul materials anytime soon; this was something that was considered quite heavily in the crafting process for JavaMUG, however.  In fact, I contributed many hours of work towards just that end myself, working on hardness scales and developing relative scales of flammability, hardness, density, etc for every material that would be in the game, from vegetable to mineral.  It's a JavaMUG consideration for sure, but not so much for the existing codebase.

At best we can try to limit or retcon areas where there are unrealistic weapons or armor; we occasionally do that anyway.  I don't foresee a project specifically devoted to that at this point in time, but maybe later in the year or next.

...but no, obsidian is not the equivalent of real life steel.  No, it is not equal to steel in durability in-game.  It doesn't shatter (as often as you might think it should, perhaps?) because the code isn't that complex (in those cases).  As mentioned above, we can do what we can to limit unrealistic uses of obsidian in that context.

Was JavaMUG part of the 2.0 concept or was that something that was supposed to go into 1.0? I'm just curious as I'm not familiar with that. It also sounds awesome.

Also if you do plan to rework certain items, I am on board to rewrite as many as you need to include realistic crafting recipies and description changes. Just say the word.

[Nyr]

JavaMUG is the code project for Armageddon.  It is the "new game engine."  At any rate, a lot of the groundwork has been done for item materials.  While we don't update this blog with stuff done on that engine (because the blog was for "reborn" and not "JavaMUG"), here's an entry about that:

http://brideofson.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/were-not-asking-the-important-question-here/

[Desertman]

Holy shit.

I really hope that somehow finds its way into Arm one day.

[Qzzrbl]

Holy shit.

I really hope that somehow finds its way into Arm one day.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=43386.0

When that codebase comes available we will look to port the existing game world over to a new code base.  We do not think that this will be occurring in the near future and when the time arrives we will give you more information.

[Reiloth]

Or you can (if you feel your weapon took a mighty blow):

>remove weapon
>junk weapon

You don't need to rely on code to reinforce your opinions, D-man