Changing Brew to Craft for Cures - Idea?

[Riev]

I was thinking about Idea'ing this in game, but I thought to open it up to discussion before I did anything.

While I don't really understand what the Brew skill is used for these days, besides making various cures, I was wondering if perhaps that use of it should be switched to the crafting system, to make things a bit more... whats the word... homogenized.

The way it seems to work now, is as long as you know what things make a poison cure, you can make a cure without fail or effort. Without tools, with very little indeed. I was thinking that, instead, the 'cure' part of the Brew skill should open up things from the "craft" syntax instead.

So, rather than auto-brewing a cure for poison, you have to craft the ingredients together (where some skill level can be involved), and maybe have some tools that sure seem like they'd be useful, add to that skill. That way, instead of automatically making a cure for bloodburn so long as you know the ingredients.... you have to know the ingredients -and- have the requisite skill to mix together the components (rather than simply being blessed with the skill that allows you to do it)

I'm not suggesting removing Brew, just removing the ability to make tablets and instead having it govern a Craft skill for them. How does everyone else feel on this?

[Fredd]

I was thinking about Idea'ing this in game, but I thought to open it up to discussion before I did anything.

While I don't really understand what the Brew skill is used for these days, besides making various cures, I was wondering if perhaps that use of it should be switched to the crafting system, to make things a bit more... whats the word... homogenized.

The way it seems to work now, is as long as you know what things make a poison cure, you can make a cure without fail or effort. Without tools, with very little indeed. I was thinking that, instead, the 'cure' part of the Brew skill should open up things from the "craft" syntax instead.

So, rather than auto-brewing a cure for poison, you have to craft the ingredients together (where some skill level can be involved), and maybe have some tools that sure seem like they'd be useful, add to that skill. That way, instead of automatically making a cure for bloodburn so long as you know the ingredients.... you have to know the ingredients -and- have the requisite skill to mix together the components (rather than simply being blessed with the skill that allows you to do it)

I'm not suggesting removing Brew, just removing the ability to make tablets and instead having it govern a Craft skill for them. How does everyone else feel on this?

You are missing the fact that you can/are failing on certain ones, and you don't realize.

That being said, I hate how brew's sentax works, and until someone took me and told me oocly, I never knew how to eve use the skill, because it's so different. I think the brew command shoul be part of the crafting system

[chrisdcoulombe]

> brew alcohol water methelinoc berries...from the help file.
em throws some berries and methelinoc into the pool at the Vivaduan temple.
Say (face flushing) This parties goin all night!

I agree the syntax is weird and there doesn't seem to be a fail.  It does seem to take a long time though.

[Fredd]

> brew alcohol water methelinoc berries...from the help file.
em throws some berries and methelinoc into the pool at the Vivaduan temple.
Say (face flushing) This parties goin all night!

I agree the syntax is weird and there doesn't seem to be a fail.  It does seem to take a long time though.

I'm 95% certain there are fails. And i would point out why most people don't realize. Except I'm worried staff will get upset about revealing code thingies.

[Riev]

I agree the syntax is weird and there doesn't seem to be a fail.  It does seem to take a long time though.

It DOES take a long time, but you always end up with what you're looking for, at the end. There's no "Oh you're a novice in this, so you can't make it". I'd like to see cures at least have some -skill- in being made, so when someone really needs a cure its not "Oh well this cost me the five minutes to buy the herbs" but more "I spent two months figuring this shit out, I'm not wasting it on some nobody"

[Fredd]

I agree the syntax is weird and there doesn't seem to be a fail.  It does seem to take a long time though.

It DOES take a long time, but you always end up with what you're looking for, at the end. There's no "Oh you're a novice in this, so you can't make it". I'd like to see cures at least have some -skill- in being made, so when someone really needs a cure its not "Oh well this cost me the five minutes to buy the herbs" but more "I spent two months figuring this shit out, I'm not wasting it on some nobody"

You are right. You always get something....SOMETHING. Not always what you are supposed to make.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

As far as cures go... I think what might be nice is their appearance and effectiveness altered. Maybe not an entire fail, because.. hi, here's these herbs that are known to cure this... And you KNOW you used these particular herbs. So why would it be a total fail? Instead perhaps if you have low skill, your little tablets look a bit rough, and maybe have their own side effects? YES the poison is cured, but you still feel ill for a while longer?

I don't know. It's half an idea, but something like that I'd be happy with.

[Riev]

hi, here's these herbs that are known to cure this... And you KNOW you used these particular herbs. So why would it be a total fail?

To play the other side, just because you know ingredients go together, doesn't mean you know how to make Blue Sky Meth. Sometimes you're just that good (though that sort of plays into partial fails allowing something altogether different).

There could be partial fails in the system I have in mind, but I'm not discussing the code of it, just the idea of not having Brew be the syntax.

[hatchets]

I have only really just begun finding anything about brew. Cures of course being the most common. However, it does have a crafting side as well already that I have found. To me, it is its own puzzle that can take time to work with.

I am in favor of the side effects, but only based on the ingredients used and perhaps a bit of color changes based on the ingredients. Would surely create a demand for mixing and matching. Not every X colored bit cures Y cause this one was made with A and B not the usual C and D. Although perhaps this is already in effect and I don't quite know it yet.

While frustrating, bit more so then crafting, I look forward to hopefully playing with the skill as it is. Keeps a bit of an air of mystery about it.

[Nyr]

The brew system operates a lot differently than the crafting system does.  We brought this up last summer and the discussion revolved around whether the issues with understanding brew were due to a lack of understanding and documentation (both on a staff side and a player side).  We definitely could convert it, but we also definitely could flesh out the documentation on the skill and its use, perhaps even throwing in a roleplay helpfile to assist.  I'll bump the staff thread on it.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

What about splitting it into a two-part process?

Brew (various herbs) into [the corresponding colored] paste.

Craft paste into tablets?

Maybe your degree of skill produces more or less usable item, from one to four? (paste/tablet)

Sorry I'm sort of drifting off the main topic   

[Riev]

The brew system operates a lot differently than the crafting system does.  We brought this up last summer and the discussion revolved around whether the issues with understanding brew were due to a lack of understanding and documentation (both on a staff side and a player side).  We definitely could convert it, but we also definitely could flesh out the documentation on the skill and its use, perhaps even throwing in a roleplay helpfile to assist.  I'll bump the staff thread on it.

Considering the other things Brew seems capable of doing, I wouldn't mind it if things were just looked over a bit more. Like I said, my main concern was that it seemingly has no way to "fail" when you use brew syntax. And brew -has- recipes that are used with the "craft" syntax and it just seemed better to make it an all or nothing, perhaps.

But then again, I don't know as much as staff might about what it can and can't do. I just wanted to see things have a possibility of failure, so curing that bloodburn wasnt as simple as a 0-day PC saying "give me a moment I'm an expert in herbs"

[Adhira]

We'd like to see failure too.  It's just a little bit more complicated to make it work.  Nyr bumped it up for discussion, the result is that we all say... yeah, this needs work/changing.  But it's not a small change and so this may take a while until someone has both the bandwidth and the needed skill/capability can make this happen.

[Zul]

We'd like to see failure too.  It's just a little bit more complicated to make it work.  Nyr bumped it up for discussion, the result is that we all say... yeah, this needs work/changing.  But it's not a small change and so this may take a while until someone has both the bandwidth and the needed skill/capability can make this happen.

I just ran a search and found posts as far back as 2004 -- almost a decade ago -- asking for the same thing. 

[catchall]

We'd like to see failure too.  It's just a little bit more complicated to make it work.  Nyr bumped it up for discussion, the result is that we all say... yeah, this needs work/changing.  But it's not a small change and so this may take a while until someone has both the bandwidth and the needed skill/capability can make this happen.

I just ran a search and found posts as far back as 2004 -- almost a decade ago -- asking for the same thing. 

Okayy, well, you know how many things have changed since 2004?  (Hint: tons.)

[Zul]

Okayy, well, you know how many things have changed since 2004?  (Hint: tons.)

English isn't my first language but I do believe that would constitute a non sequitur, right?

[Nyr]

Not sure it's a non sequitur so much as someone pointing out that we do quite a bit, even if one particular player desire has not been fulfilled after years of wanting it.  We have priorities that focus on several areas and we improve things gradually.  This is not one of those areas we've devoted time to of late and while it is something we want to take a look at, it is not a current priority.

[Adhira]

We'd like to see failure too.  It's just a little bit more complicated to make it work.  Nyr bumped it up for discussion, the result is that we all say... yeah, this needs work/changing.  But it's not a small change and so this may take a while until someone has both the bandwidth and the needed skill/capability can make this happen.

I just ran a search and found posts as far back as 2004 -- almost a decade ago -- asking for the same thing. 

Yes. And there's a chance you could search again in 8 years and it's still not done.  Does that make it feel better? 

Our list of wants is very very long.  Projects are always prioritized.  It's not only just a matter of would this be great to have but also does someone have the time/desire to do this and in the case of this one the SKILL.  I'm sorry if you are feeling that our volunteer workforce is not completing projects that you wish to see with the speed and attention you feel they should have.  The fact is that if you are going to base your happiness with this game on staff completing code and world changes (and looking to see how long these things take), then you aren't going to be happy with this game.   

There is a good chance that brew will get looked at in the next 6 months - 1 year.   There is also a chance it will not.  We do try and make things better, we aren't adverse to making changes to code but the fact is that at some point this clunky codebase we are using does not give the returns we desire.  One day, when we have a new codebase to move to, that may change.

[Twilight]

Brew predates craft.  Thus, wonkiness.  For example, with craft it doesn't matter if you craft A B into C or craft B A into C.  With brew it does.

I agree the easiest would see to be to point the brew code to a different set of object numbers, lets say paste objects.  Then use the pastes via a craft skill to make the actual tablets.  It would also seem a nice way to open up the potential of brewing usable poisons, by adding things to those paste items or whatnot.

[Riev]

I agree the easiest would see to be to point the brew code to a different set of object numbers, lets say paste objects.  Then use the pastes via a craft skill to make the actual tablets.  It would also seem a nice way to open up the potential of brewing usable poisons, by adding things to those paste items or whatnot.

This is a great idea, simply because like you said, it could open up the possibility of brewing poisons. Instead of taking POISONING ITEM and just holding it... you have to brew a simple paste/liquid, then 'craft liquid POISON_ITEM into COLORED LIQUID'.

But really, I'm all for brew just pointing to pastes, that are then used in a crafting recipe that is governed by brew.

brew leaf1 leaf2 into a paste
You create a light green paste by mashing the ingredients together.
craft paste into a couple CURE_ITEM
or at higher levels into some CURE_ITEM

[little chicken woman]

Brew sucks, but I have a basic grasp of it, and dung foraging code is harder and sucks much worse, so I could take brew or leave it.

Would doing this change mean getting a "brewing" craft skill or would it get changed into "brewing" and "medicine making."

EDIT: Apparently I didn't read the title of the thread but my question still stands. I'd like to see brewing as a craft skill--- make it easier, less wonky, and more accessible to more people, because if you give people an inch, they will undoubtedly start brewing alcohol in their backyards. Hell, even the north Koreans brew bootleg alcohol and they don't have food.

[Zul]

Yes. And there's a chance you could search again in 8 years and it's still not done.  Does that make it feel better? 

You mean does that make me feel better? To be honest not really, though I suppose I understand to some extent why you would respond in this way.

I'm sorry if you are feeling that our volunteer workforce is not completing projects that you wish to see with the speed and attention you feel they should have.  The fact is that if you are going to base your happiness with this game on staff completing code and world changes (and looking to see how long these things take), then you aren't going to be happy with this game.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuugh, please don't try to spin this to make me the enemy. I never once questioned your devotion as volunteer staff, nor did I express my happiness or lack thereof due to staff's desire to work on a particular piece of the game world.

[Adhira]

I wasn't trying to make you the enemy. I was replying in kind to your comment.  

Since you seemed to be expressing your dissatisfaction and rolling your eyes at the comment I made that yes, we would like to fix this, and we hope to, I gave it the reply I thought it deserved.

While I appreciate that players get frustrated that things take so long, or just don't happen, staff do too.  We aren't always able to make the changes we want.  Having players essentially mock us for what we are doing gets old.



Edit: Wow, how did I get here. I didn't actually edit the content of Adhira's post. - Calavera

[Zul]

I rolled my eyes because it seemed you were merely offering lip service to something that's been in the queue for over a decade now. It has nothing to do with being dissatisfied and everything to do with taking what you said with a grain of salt.

I was not mocking you and am sorry you feel that way.

[Maso]

If you count every request and desire that's been expressed on the board as 'in the queue' then the queue is really really long. I don't know if you're a new player, but I'm assuming so. It's a normal hump that most newer players go through on the GDB until you get used to the way things work around here. Which is to say change happens slowly. And that's not a bad thing. It means things are properly considered and discussed. Then prioritised if it's actually deemed to be a good change to the world. Then done properly if there is a feasible way to do it (there are limitations to what can be done with the code). You'll notice there are a whole lot of ideas and issues that come up over and over again (and will continue to do so for years) and people will often joke about where we are 'up to' in the cycle. Every now and again an 'old' idea will be implemented...and that's super cool. Sometimes someone will come out with an idea and it will get done the next day...which is also super cool.

Basically, it's all gravy once you accept how it tends to go.