On Beauty

[Mirage]

Hi, I'm Mirage, and new to Armageddon!

I had a question for players here. As opposed to many other MUDs out there, it is obvious that Arm has a far heavier RP basis. As such I was wondering what players think about beauty in character descriptions. If you've ever been to a place like Discworld or Achaea, seasoned female warriors with perfect hair and manicured nails and male halfling bards with bulging muscles are positively rampant, and everyone is unusually tall for their race and nobody is a smidgen overweight – in fact, a lot of people think making their character practically anorexic is a good thing. Because the environment in the MUDs I come from is more focused on social interaction than realistic appearances, it's certainly tolerable, if occasionally annoying, but what is it like in Armageddon? If players feel that most people can't resist the urge to make perfectly beautiful characters, is that OK? A sign of bad or inexperienced roleplay? Unbearable? Aggravating? Encouraged?

Personally I am crafting a female warrior and I decided to change quite a few things about the way I usually build appearances on the as yet unaccepted second draft of my character. She's got plain features, she has broad, calloused hands – none of that slender fingers stuff – she leans towards the higher average on height (because: warrior) but remains ordinary in many respects. In the future I'm planning on a fat, portly male character who loves cooking a bit too much. One thing I've noticed on other sites is that I have to deliberately make my women characters not obviously conventionally beautiful, just in order to avoid 90% of the sexist spam from guys constantly trying to get you to sext with them or marry them or get you IC "pregnant" with no previous roleplay or friendship, let alone time to develop a romantic relationship, between you, not that I'm one of those girls who has interest in the guy characters who come onto you so rudely and blatantly, especially when they do it OOC (got pix gurl – ugh!). People who have played women on Armageddon: does it help to make them plain-looking? And I'm not even talking about not having an obviously sexy or explicit description – I avoid that unless I'm actually capable of roleplaying a multi-dimensional character who just happens to be a saucy minx, which personally, I don't. I mean avoiding just being pretty, or willowy, or pert.

I do have to admit, somewhat guiltily, that I've had so many bad experiences that when I am acquainted with one of those slender, graceful, ethereal, delicate, fierce, sensual women my first impression is negative, that they are attention-seeking, inexperienced Mary Sues. I do my best to get over it and get to know them better, but the truth is, whether or not they have a dimensional, well thought-out character and are quality roleplayers, many people who play attractive women do play on good looks in order to make more friends or quickly develop romance. While I think other players' choices are not for me to judge, it does make it harder to perceive a realistic environment where not everyone can have perfect looks.

One very interesting homebrew roleplay I once took part in had looks – that is, Attractiveness – as an actual statistic, separate from Charisma and operating like any other stat (Strength, Intelligence, etc.) Your statistics were all randomized, but like in Arm, you could list them according to priority, and that would add a bonus to whatever random number was generated, in the case of some stats combined with a racial/class bonus, with the lowest priority receiving no bonus. In the case of Attractiveness, unlike other stats, you had an equal chance of being horrifically ugly as you had of being exquisitely stunning, the more you moved towards the average, ordinary-looking, the higher the likelihood became. Prioritizing Attractiveness was a purely aesthetic element of the game, but it meant you had to limit your description to your statistic, within reason. What do you guys think about such a system? (Not for implementation in Armageddon, that wouldn't be right at all, but just generally for role-play.)

From my personal experience it was awesome, because in a medieval world, Attractiveness is a "statistic". It's an attribute and the success of related endeavours depends on your competence. Unlike other stats in the example it couldn't be improved through practice, but that's what Charisma was for. A warrior found themselves listing Strength, Endurance, Dexterity and Constitution as priorities, then found themselves unable to boost their Attractiveness score. But a warrior wouldn't need a high Attractiveness score if they've got decent strength. Their lifestyle doesn't require it. On the other hand, a character interested in becoming a dancer/concubine for rich people would have Charisma, Attractiveness and Intelligence high on their list. When remarkable beauty was something extraordinary and being special in that aspect was actually special, all of a sudden entirely new IC opportunities opened. A lot of women got jealous of the select few rare beauties, and characters found themselves with 7 average-looking friends and 2 below-average-looking, and if you were interested in looking for a romantic partner, all of a sudden entirely different aspects came into play: personality, humour, shared hobbies, charm. It was surprising how women who weren't anything special beauty-wise were able to have many men after them due to behaviour and using emotes and description wisely. Same with the men, and vice versa with beautiful people!

So what do you all think? Would it bother you if you were in a MUD where everyone was beautiful?

[Erythil]

Lots o words here.

I'll say that on armageddon there's a much lower percentage of conventionally pretty characters, owing in large part to the harshness of the setting.  There's lots of grizzled characters around because that's just the way the world is.  There are still beautiful characters too, of both sexes, and that's fine -- but usually it's a little more justified in backstory.  A merchant's son or a noblewoman or an accomplished artisan is going to look different from an urchin or a mercenary just based on the virtue of their lifestyles.

Anyway, I've played games where more or less everyone looks good, and that doesn't really bother me that much if it fits the setting.  In the classic high-fantasy kingdom everything's fairly glamorized and that's what you expect.  Here on this game you're looking mainly at the opposite of that.  Grit is the rule.

I've also seen a MUD or two that had an attractiveness stat, and I didn't like that so much, because attractiveness really is in the eye of the beholder, and it's awkward to have to play around someone's character being objectively a perfect ten in the looks department when they don't really know how to write the necessary allure.

[AreteX]

This is the longest first post in Armageddon history!  Welcome 

There is one thing I have always found to hold true with Armageddon created characters.  They are flawed.  I have never ran into a character on Armageddon where I felt like they were just there to look pretty and had no depth to them.  Not once.  Every character I meet I feel like if I took the time I would be able to learn things about them and enjoy the depth to which their player has created.

There have been "beautiful" characters before in Armageddon.  There have been plenty, actually.  I don't think anyone minds spotting a character that has the standard beautiful looks and perhaps even stands out as a "10".  People might form an opinion on that character right from the start, but they will at least give them a chance to prove that opinion(and it isnt good to form one so quickly) otherwise.  Also, you won't ever have to worry about someone contacting you out of character for "pix" or anything like that.  Never.  I have not once found out the sex of another player behind the keys before and I could care less and I think that is the case with most of the people here.  If it ever did happen you could report them to Staff and it would be handled.  That is one of the more comforting things about Armageddon for me as well.  The disconnect from an out of character relationship that happens on other MUDs/roleplay games.  You don't ever associate OOCly with other players as your character.

The thing about Armageddon is it is a different world than many settings on other MUDs.  Armageddon is tough.  It is harsh.  You might die...RIGHT NOW.  The qualities people are looking for in mates or relationships/friends are often not physically related to the standard of beauty but physically related to the standard of they can help me survive.  I have had characters that look upon someone with a half-scarred face and normally horrible features in a good light because they knew where those scars came from and they knew that person could handle themselves.  In this world that is very important.  My character could rely on that person.  My character was treated well by that person and they helped each other out.  This made it so the standard of beauty was not really followed and my character thought that other character was quite the catch.

I think you are in for a good ride and experience here at Armageddon.  I believe the players here and the concepts on Zalanthas have broken the molds set forth by other MUDs and society in general.  I hope your female warrior type gets approved and once she is waist deep in scrab guts coming back from a successful hunting trip someone walks up to her and buys her a drink. 

[Cutthroat]

Welcome to Armageddon!

You obviously thought this through quite a lot. Analyzing things like this can make for enjoyable RP here. This topic has been discussed in the past, but it doesn't hurt to go over it again.

I personally think also that Arm doesn't have that many unusually pretty characters. Like Erythil said, how well-taken care of your PC's appearance is depends largely on his or her lot in life. I personally like it this way. It ends up being one of many aspects of a player's roleplay, rather than something that sticks out.

I wouldn't have a problem playing on a MUD where players  just took on whatever descriptions they wanted. We play Arm to have fun, and so do players of other MUDs. In Arm, if a player thinks it is fun to have an unusually attractive character, that's fine, so long as they RP how they manage to stay so well-kept despite whatever factors work against them. I think this would only take a little extra effort and allow for a relatively big payoff in enjoyability for that player and other players around them.

[Lizzie]

Arm isn't all that different from any other mud in this regard. There are players who want their characters to look as sexually attractive as possible, and use the real world as their guideline to determine what "sexy" means. They are misguided of course - however, there are also players whose characters will be attracted to that real-world ideal of beauty, so it works out great for both sides.

There are also players who want to embrace the "grittiness and harshness" of Zalanthas in their characters' descriptions. They will attract players whose characters find scars and crooked noses and any darkly-tanned thicker than fully emaciated to be damned fine specimens of their race (meaning - if it looks like it can get you food, and it eats moderately well itself, then it's sexy enough).

There are some players who just love the whole sexual thing. But not all, and probably not even most. I think it's just a few, who are just really obvious about it so it makes them look like there's a lot more than there really are.

Most people - (and this is me being hopeful, not having any actual knowlege) fall more into the category of "my character will look like a normal zalanthan, and if they mate up with someone, whether it's RPed out or faded, that's fine. But it isn't a priority, it isn't a goal, and I won't be writing my character's description with the intention of attracting another player to engage in mudsex with me."

But yes, some people do that. And everyone else will be attracted to it or repelled by it, or just ignore it entirely, depending on their own priorities in the game.

[Barzalene]

I should start out by saying I am a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite. I look at the collection of my character descriptions and I fall in love with all of them over and over.

My inspirations have included:
A random guy at the bus stop
Laila Ali (without make up and with her hair done to fight not pose)
A Nigerian model
A mug shot of a rather scary looking woman who was certainly no model but not scary ugly.

But while I don't tend to make my pc's hideous, I don't play up their perfect beautify and sex appeal. I try to make them people. People that some people might find attractive and others will not. Some will think their big noes doesn't ruin their appeal, or the gaps in their yellowed teeth.

I try to stay away from words that convey some kind of in your face perfection - like shiny or glossy.

I tend to judge the pcs who are too good looking, both male and female a little harder. I'm not proud of it, but I confess it's true. I want people to bring more to the table than lush lips and rippling pectorals. I want pcs to be willing to look like shit when they come straggling back from the spiders's nests and kryl ambushes.

That said, I understand the urge to make pcs that appeal to the picture in your head. I do.

I want a world where people just look like people. Regular people. Not people from the glossy pages of magazines. I applaud you for being willing to play with the idea of a character than isn't a big ball of gorgeous.

[greasygemo]

I think the problem with like, modern attractiveness imagery ICly is that it may not reflect what's actually VIEWED as good looking.. for example..

I would think fat people would be seen as pretty damn hot in Zalanthas. Like, think renaissance artwork where round, thick curvy, chunky dames were seen as well kept, healthy, vibrant child bearing specimens. No one would look at a vogue model and go, Mmmm.. sexy. They'd be more like.. "I wonder if they're a breed".. or, "they could have parasites."


Merchants daughters! Pass the cake! Omnomnom! --------- Dying from Sand fever or Possible breed.

Also, the idea of like makeup and facial beauty might have widely different views. Take for example the Seik and facial tattoos or the lip tusk piercings you see etc. What kind of decoration would be seen as attractive or the view of scars and marks would likely be a lot different that what you might consider sexy in RL, and also have variations based on where your player comes from in the world.


Large lip-plate? Fap fap fap sir. ------ - Moar dots, more hawts! ----- She's only spotted cuz she's respected.

I wish I had past PC's to like, provide IG examples, but I'm too new to have anything to share in that regard. I will say I started out with a very westernized 21st century appearance and I wish, looking back, I had taken a more world-based beauty approach.

[Mirage]

I would think fat people would be seen as pretty damn hot in Zalanthas. Like, think renaissance artwork where round, thick curvy, chunky dames were seen as well kept, healthy, vibrant child bearing specimens. No one would look at a vogue model and go, Mmmm.. sexy. They'd be more like.. "I wonder if they're a breed".. or, "they could have parasites."

LOL. Great point.

And thank you everybody for the warm welcome! Yes. Yes it's rather tl;dr, I just felt the reaction from the playerbase would give me a good handle on what to expect! I can't wait to start playing, although I'm sure I'll die in like a day >,> Love the responses, so many thoughtful ideas! Thanks for the replies.

[Desertman]

Hi, I'm Mirage, and new to Armageddon!

I had a question for players here. As opposed to many other MUDs out there, it is obvious that Arm has a far heavier RP basis. As such I was wondering what players think about beauty in character descriptions. If you've ever been to a place like Discworld or Achaea, seasoned female warriors with perfect hair and manicured nails and male halfling bards with bulging muscles are positively rampant, and everyone is unusually tall for their race and nobody is a smidgen overweight – in fact, a lot of people think making their character practically anorexic is a good thing. Because the environment in the MUDs I come from is more focused on social interaction than realistic appearances, it's certainly tolerable, if occasionally annoying, but what is it like in Armageddon? If players feel that most people can't resist the urge to make perfectly beautiful characters, is that OK? A sign of bad or inexperienced roleplay? Unbearable? Aggravating? Encouraged?

Personally I am crafting a female warrior and I decided to change quite a few things about the way I usually build appearances on the as yet unaccepted second draft of my character. She's got plain features, she has broad, calloused hands – none of that slender fingers stuff – she leans towards the higher average on height (because: warrior) but remains ordinary in many respects. In the future I'm planning on a fat, portly male character who loves cooking a bit too much. One thing I've noticed on other sites is that I have to deliberately make my women characters not obviously conventionally beautiful, just in order to avoid 90% of the sexist spam from guys constantly trying to get you to sext with them or marry them or get you IC "pregnant" with no previous roleplay or friendship, let alone time to develop a romantic relationship, between you, not that I'm one of those girls who has interest in the guy characters who come onto you so rudely and blatantly, especially when they do it OOC (got pix gurl – ugh!). People who have played women on Armageddon: does it help to make them plain-looking? And I'm not even talking about not having an obviously sexy or explicit description – I avoid that unless I'm actually capable of roleplaying a multi-dimensional character who just happens to be a saucy minx, which personally, I don't. I mean avoiding just being pretty, or willowy, or pert.

I do have to admit, somewhat guiltily, that I've had so many bad experiences that when I am acquainted with one of those slender, graceful, ethereal, delicate, fierce, sensual women my first impression is negative, that they are attention-seeking, inexperienced Mary Sues. I do my best to get over it and get to know them better, but the truth is, whether or not they have a dimensional, well thought-out character and are quality roleplayers, many people who play attractive women do play on good looks in order to make more friends or quickly develop romance. While I think other players' choices are not for me to judge, it does make it harder to perceive a realistic environment where not everyone can have perfect looks.

One very interesting homebrew roleplay I once took part in had looks – that is, Attractiveness – as an actual statistic, separate from Charisma and operating like any other stat (Strength, Intelligence, etc.) Your statistics were all randomized, but like in Arm, you could list them according to priority, and that would add a bonus to whatever random number was generated, in the case of some stats combined with a racial/class bonus, with the lowest priority receiving no bonus. In the case of Attractiveness, unlike other stats, you had an equal chance of being horrifically ugly as you had of being exquisitely stunning, the more you moved towards the average, ordinary-looking, the higher the likelihood became. Prioritizing Attractiveness was a purely aesthetic element of the game, but it meant you had to limit your description to your statistic, within reason. What do you guys think about such a system? (Not for implementation in Armageddon, that wouldn't be right at all, but just generally for role-play.)

From my personal experience it was awesome, because in a medieval world, Attractiveness is a "statistic". It's an attribute and the success of related endeavours depends on your competence. Unlike other stats in the example it couldn't be improved through practice, but that's what Charisma was for. A warrior found themselves listing Strength, Endurance, Dexterity and Constitution as priorities, then found themselves unable to boost their Attractiveness score. But a warrior wouldn't need a high Attractiveness score if they've got decent strength. Their lifestyle doesn't require it. On the other hand, a character interested in becoming a dancer/concubine for rich people would have Charisma, Attractiveness and Intelligence high on their list. When remarkable beauty was something extraordinary and being special in that aspect was actually special, all of a sudden entirely new IC opportunities opened. A lot of women got jealous of the select few rare beauties, and characters found themselves with 7 average-looking friends and 2 below-average-looking, and if you were interested in looking for a romantic partner, all of a sudden entirely different aspects came into play: personality, humour, shared hobbies, charm. It was surprising how women who weren't anything special beauty-wise were able to have many men after them due to behaviour and using emotes and description wisely. Same with the men, and vice versa with beautiful people!

So what do you all think? Would it bother you if you were in a MUD where everyone was beautiful?

You aren't fooling anyone Angela Christine.

[Drayab]

I take a willingness to play a non-cliched looking character as a sign of maturity, or at least creativity. You'll find that attractiveness IG more often comes down to roleplay, anyway.

That said, play a beautiful character if that's what suits you. You may get funny looks from the veterans. When you're an ordinary commoner, people are wont to wonder how you're so well-kept when everybody else is covered in shit. Son/daughter of a whore might be a good place to start.

[Zerero]

I have never ran into a character on Armageddon where I felt like they were just there to look pretty and had no depth to them.  Not once.  Every character I meet I feel like if I took the time I would be able to learn things about them and enjoy the depth to which their player has created.

This, except I'm on the border. Dem dark-eyed chiseled men with awesome beards and huge arms... I've seen several of them, and they always turn me off. But generally, this hasn't been an issue for me. Granted, I haven't played in Tuluk for the longest time...

EDIT: EWWWW Discworld and Achaea

[Fujikoma]

Personally, I mostly skim the long descriptions, and build my mental image of the character from the short desc and personality. Some long descriptions are just too dang long, what that tells me is someone imagined up a very specific character and there's a decent chance they're better than me at that sort of thing.

I'm more interested in what they do and do not do than how good or bad their characters look... Guess that comes from a long time of playing games where the description was more often than not some kind of joke, random letters, or hideously disgusting. Most of the pretty ones didn't last long.

[Gunnerblaster]

First off, welcome to Armageddon, Mirage!

One thing that I've learned by roleplaying with the many various players of Armageddon is that, no matter who they are, no one's character is "perfect".

Yes, they may be extremely attractive but that usually comes with it's own issues. I've met some seriously "well-endowed" women who turned out to be completely psycho or had some sort of instability. I personally loved it. A perfect example of how beauty affects the out-come of many characters, sometimes.

As for having a 'beauty' attribute, I don't really feel something like that would necessarily be appropriate for Armageddon since beauty, itself, is a matter of personally opinion. A beautiful human woman would still be viewed as unattractive to most other species, like elves and dwarves, so to force your "beauty" onto someone - Be it a PC or an NPC - just isn't right.

[ShaLeah]

Here's my theory.

Make what you want however you want. This is a game, this is fantasy, make that gorgeous unscarred warrior cause the truth of the matter is she prolly won't last but a minute and you'll be able to make that ugly ass, pimply breed sooner than you think.

The sky is the limit.

[Vwest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEbEMjKitA4

Seems relevant.

[Morrolan]

Mirage,

I've seen lots of great posts above. One thing that wasn't mentioned yet is that permadeath is the great leveler.

Nah, I don't mean going up levels--as I'm sure you already know, we have a levelless system.

On some games, whatever you make as you first character usually stays with you for a while...and often that character is a Mary Sue.

On Arm, a first character usually lasts a couple of hours, maybe a couple of weeks.

Rinse, lather, repeat, and eventually we get the mary sues out of our systems. After the 10th version of "The perfect, sculpted male model is here, preening." players start pushing their own boundaries in one way or another.

Eventually, many players discover that "the one-eyed hunchbacked crone" is actually much more fun to play for more than a week. The health and appearance of characters starts reflecting their nutritional and social background which, on Zalanthas, pretty much stinks.

To answer your question, yes, does bother me when players push OOC versions of beauty, and then expect OOC responses. Believe you me, if a pristine character  joins the Byn, I'm gonna teach them the wonders of the "tdesc" command sooner rather than later!

Welcome to Arm! It has its own beauty norms, more or less--often they revolve around in-game racist tendencies and ape-ing nobility. And remember, Tdesc is always your friend.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I can go either way. I've made plain looking men and women and enjoyed them greatly. And then sometimes I've gone "You know WHAT... I'm going to make myself a beautiful/buff/hawt man/woman who has no point whatsoever." And I enjoyed them greatly as well.

On my old computer, I had a multitude of stored PC "ideas", some partial, some ready to leap IG just as soon as I heard *beep*. And some of them were written with no thought other than 'I am going to go out of my way to make the MOST INCREDIBLY USELESS FME PC EVAR'.

One of my favorite PC's was a ditsy boy who sorta looked like a girl, had very few useful "skillz" that existed outside my ability to make him a real character, he was made mostly for my comedic relief, my fun slutty cheerleader. 

[Maso]

tl;dr ...but I did scan....

Personally I can go either way too. I don't see anything wrong with there being beauties in the world...they exist IRL...they have always existed and they will always exist and there's a place for them in Arm. It's just one type of character. It definitely took me a little to get used to Arm and embrace the grittiness but when I did - it was all the more fun. So I will go from playing and old man with his face half melted off by a Krathi, to an astonishingly beautiful and intense magicker who's gaze can melt hearts. One is no better than the other. Playing the latter doesn't make me a bad or inexperienced RP'er...I saw it as well-balanced and suitable for her place in the world (and her history, which was laid out to me by someone else as she was a family role). She was a magicker, that made her disgusting to most people, regardless of her beauty, and I found her ability to sometimes make men question how they felt about that...quite entertaining. But I don't mudsex, I very rarely have my characters involved in relationships (and when I do the majority of any romantic intimacy is faded or in the background) but I do acknowledge romance and sexuality as something that should exist and is important. Being able to manipulate due to beauty (that is well worn and taken advantage of) is a skill.

But kind of like you said, it is a 'stat' or sorts. If my character is going to be beautiful, I want that balanced out with some cons. If my character is going to be tok-faced ugly, I want them to be charismatic and kind...etc etc.

If people play beautiful characters ALL the time though...while...I'm not judging anyone (it's up to you what makes you happy and what you enjoy and you are NOT spoiling my immersion or enjoyment so do whatever you like..)...I urge you to just try the other side of the coin, for you...It can be liberating and very very fun. It's just a different type of character and gives you a different experience of the game.

[Barzalene]

I wish that the beautiful pcs were a bit less homogenized. Ugh, it's hard to make a comment meant to open up possibilities, that at it's heart is basically critical without sounding like an ass. Can I just apologize for being an ass and move on?

I wish that the beautiful pcs looked more individual. Less, of the common phrasings of beauty?

[Lizzie]

I wish that the beautiful pcs were a bit less homogenized. Ugh, it's hard to make a comment meant to open up possibilities, that at it's heart is basically critical without sounding like an ass. Can I just apologize for being an ass and move on?

I wish that the beautiful pcs looked more individual. Less, of the common phrasings of beauty?

Let me know if this is what you're referring to...

Like liquid sapphires shimmering under the pale light of lirathu late at night, this well-curved woman's blue-black hair ripples down her slender back, caressing her torso and ending in a gentle tousle at the apex of her round, muscular buttocks. Blah blah blah generous but firm breasts, blah blah shapely legs, blah blah gentle flare of her hips, blah blah wide, brilliant eyes, blah blah flat stomach, blah blah delicate bone structure, blah blah tiny scar on her left pinky.

vs:

Blue-black hair falls impossibly to her big butt. Her tits look like they could easily feed a full unit of Kuraci regulars with enough milk left over to make even Sargax weep. She has a stomach you could bounce a large chunk of obsidian off of, and though her bones appear frail, they're covered with enough musculature to make a raptor give pause before attacking. Blah blah blah eyes, blah blah legs like maar saplings, blah blah pinky looks crooked due to a small but deforming scar.

They both have the exact same features. They're both beautiful by "real-world" standards. But one is written for a trashy Harlequin Romance novel, and the other is written for Zalanthas.

[Is Friday]

I feel like some people are masturbating when they are writing their character's description.

[Hishn]

Beauty is wholly subjective. Personal likes/dislikes vary between race/culture/preference. We do not permit subjective, opinion-forcing descs sooooooo its all good folks.

I kind of think artichokes are hot.

[Caiden]

I've seen a lot of ugly fuckers in Zalanthas, I've only been here about a month too.

[Vwest]

And as the pretty girl continues to be the focus of GDB loathing, a dozen handsome young men with rippling chests, anime-style badass scars and elegant but manly ponytails come back from hunting gortoks, well-groomed and smelling of roses.

[Fathi]

And as the pretty girl continues to be the focus of GDB loathing, a dozen handsome young men with rippling chests, anime-style badass scars and elegant but manly ponytails come back from hunting gortoks, well-groomed and smelling of roses.

Mind telling me where you're playing? I gotta get me some of this.