Armor proficiency skill

[Harmless]

I think it'd be nice to have an armor proficiency skill in this game. Some way of accounting for getting used to wearing it all the time. It'd be nice if the "effective encumbrance" of armor (when worn only) was reduced somewhat further as the wearer gets used to it. I think it'd be cool if there were two or three basic categories, for leather/hide/cloth materials, shell/chitin/bone, and for the heaviest materials third like obsidian.

This would be a way to make strength a somewhat less vital stat for the purpose of beating out encumbrance, and allow for high endurance warriors and so on to be more viable as they wouldn't be so slowed down by the weight of their armor as they gained skill.

I'm sure it's been suggested before, but in any case, here's the suggestion again.

[Dalmeth]

I think it would be better if there were a more visible quality gradient to armor with price and rarity rising along with it.

Seriously, staffers.  All you have to do is introduce X resource for Y set of armor every month or so, and you'll have PCs going to war for it.

[Barsook]

I dig this idea, makes it more realistic.

[Patuk]

I'm all for this as long as the effects of wearing ginormously heavy armor out in the desert are also taken into consideration.

[lordcooper]

I'd prefer to keep that tied to strength.  It always puzzles me when my characters in other games suddenly get better at wearing stuff and it seems a little like implementing a sitting skill.

I'm not sure what fail state could cause the skill to increase either.

[X-D]

Don't really like the idea, and unlike somebody else, I find it unrealistic. Having worn armor many many MANY times, from leather to plate (Yes, I am a nerd and was a SCA member for MANY years...not those ren-fest geeks though) I can tell you, the extent of "armor proficiency" Is more in putting it on properly then anything else. After that there is a short period where you learn your balance because of a changed center of gravity and you movements based on that and increased mass. This takes about 10 minutes...maybe 30 if you are not an athletic person. After that, well, there is nothing else really, you adjust quickly. Besides, armor is not really all that heavy. The myths about middle ages knights having to be raised onto a horse then if they fell off, being like turtles on backs is just that...myth. Even if you have 60+ lbs of armor, it is spread out over your body, You can mount and dismount normally, Roll to your feet, blah blah blah. Those myths in fact came about from such things as jousting tournies etc, where that armor was MUCH heavier in the front and upper sections, but that armor was only for such events, nobody went into combat in that stuff.

In fact, MOST armors are no harder to get used to then heavy winter clothing.

[racurtne]

Don't really like the idea, and unlike somebody else, I find it unrealistic. Having worn armor many many MANY times, from leather to plate (Yes, I am a nerd and was a SCA member for MANY years...not those ren-fest geeks though) I can tell you, the extent of "armor proficiency" Is more in putting it on properly then anything else. After that there is a short period where you learn your balance because of a changed center of gravity and you movements based on that and increased mass. This takes about 10 minutes...maybe 30 if you are not an athletic person. After that, well, there is nothing else really, you adjust quickly. Besides, armor is not really all that heavy. The myths about middle ages knights having to be raised onto a horse then if they fell off, being like turtles on backs is just that...myth. Even if you have 60+ lbs of armor, it is spread out over your body, You can mount and dismount normally, Roll to your feet, blah blah blah. Those myths in fact came about from such things as jousting tournies etc, where that armor was MUCH heavier in the front and upper sections, but that armor was only for such events, nobody went into combat in that stuff.

In fact, MOST armors are no harder to get used to then heavy winter clothing.

Truth.

[Is Friday]

Don't really like the idea, and unlike somebody else, I find it unrealistic. Having worn armor many many MANY times, from leather to plate (Yes, I am a nerd and was a SCA member for MANY years...not those ren-fest geeks though) I can tell you, the extent of "armor proficiency" Is more in putting it on properly then anything else. After that there is a short period where you learn your balance because of a changed center of gravity and you movements based on that and increased mass. This takes about 10 minutes...maybe 30 if you are not an athletic person. After that, well, there is nothing else really, you adjust quickly. Besides, armor is not really all that heavy. The myths about middle ages knights having to be raised onto a horse then if they fell off, being like turtles on backs is just that...myth. Even if you have 60+ lbs of armor, it is spread out over your body, You can mount and dismount normally, Roll to your feet, blah blah blah. Those myths in fact came about from such things as jousting tournies etc, where that armor was MUCH heavier in the front and upper sections, but that armor was only for such events, nobody went into combat in that stuff.

In fact, MOST armors are no harder to get used to then heavy winter clothing.

The major concern with armor in Zalanthas is probably how much it will heat up your core temperature by wearing it/exerting energy to carry it. Those are "roleplayed" things, though, so players see no real penalty.

[Kismetic]

And if you're wearing full shell armor and a pack full of gear and you're still easily manageable, I'd call it good.

[musashi]

Don't really like the idea, and unlike somebody else, I find it unrealistic. Having worn armor many many MANY times, from leather to plate (Yes, I am a nerd and was a SCA member for MANY years...not those ren-fest geeks though) I can tell you, the extent of "armor proficiency" Is more in putting it on properly then anything else. After that there is a short period where you learn your balance because of a changed center of gravity and you movements based on that and increased mass. This takes about 10 minutes...maybe 30 if you are not an athletic person. After that, well, there is nothing else really, you adjust quickly. Besides, armor is not really all that heavy. The myths about middle ages knights having to be raised onto a horse then if they fell off, being like turtles on backs is just that...myth. Even if you have 60+ lbs of armor, it is spread out over your body, You can mount and dismount normally, Roll to your feet, blah blah blah. Those myths in fact came about from such things as jousting tournies etc, where that armor was MUCH heavier in the front and upper sections, but that armor was only for such events, nobody went into combat in that stuff.

In fact, MOST armors are no harder to get used to then heavy winter clothing.

Truth.

True. I have also nerded out with the SCA and a LARP I used to play in Michigan that had me rolling around in full plate all the time.
Funny enough though, that LARP had armor proficiency skills.

[Harmless]

Thank you X-D for that excellent post. I have never worn heavy armor before, so I really have no experience. I am confident that what you say is accurate.

However, what do you say to the idea that heavy armor is easier to wear if you're strong?

Do you think that over time wearing 50 lbs of armor day in day out that you might get stronger and just be able to deal with the weight more? I am talking simple bulking up of leg muscles.

If you agree that realistically, that is true (that you would get stronger over time if you wear heavy gear), then my idea could be used as a skill simulation for that effect of getting stronger.

Arma does not work with stat changes over time; our strength scores are totally static except for age changes. The staff no longer wants to enforce the "improve strength with logs of workouts" rule and just goes to age as the sole determinant.

However, I don't like that, say, a warrior 20 year old human with average strength will never be able to wear heavy armor even at prime age, whereas a burglar 20 year old human who will never wear heavy armor anyway CAN because he rolled a decent amount on it (like very good would be plenty).

I know I'm getting numbersy and statsy, but hear me out. If you add a skill in armor proficiency, treat it like "the strength of your legs." Someone who never strains their body wearing heavy armor wouldn't be able to wear as much gear suddenly. The skill reflects you getting stronger over time, but for a specific purpose, handling encumbrance.

If you want to add a simple "encumbrance management" skill instead, then that should also be considered under the reasons above, I agree. But I like "armor proficiency" because it better distinguishes combat classes and enables combat characters who rolled shitty strength (and will discourage some pointless suicides).

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree for the sake of realism, but there are all sorts of things we can't progressively get better at because of the guild  and stats system we use, why focus on this one thing?

[lordcooper]

I think the ideal solution to this would be to alter the way stats currently work.

Either all characters could have stats that naturally increase (up to a maximum value determined by their race, age and initial stat values) as relevant skills are improved, or guilds could apply bonuses/penalties to stats to help ensure that most warriors can handle heavier gear than most burglars.

[musashi]

Some of your ideas may already be IG LC.
But let's not speculate too openly about behind the curtain code.

[Harmless]

Alright, well ya'll make good points. thanks for your thoughts

[RogueGunslinger]

Some of your ideas may already be IG LC.
But let's not speculate too openly about behind the curtain code.

OH, but lets!

Emoting before every codded action increases likelihood of its success.

And... If you walk slower through rooms you get different echo's that give off secrets to possible hidden things in those rooms.

Well, I'll probably be banned now, so I might as well give the really juicy ones away:

If you emote before every swing of the pick at obsidian or axe to a tree it's nearly 50% better chance of success. If you use the think command before casting spells they go up much quicker.

This is a joke.



or is it?

[Harmless]

Some of your ideas may already be IG LC.
But let's not speculate too openly about behind the curtain code.

stuff

awesome, carpal tunnel-geddon. i kid.

[X-D]

Oddly, I would not mind if armor affected stats in the very long term. I do not know if it would be realistic or not because as far as I know, nobody IRL has ever worn say plate armor for even 8 hours a day every day for 10 years.

But let us assume that if somebody was to do so, the body would adapt. Going under this assumption, I would not mind if there was 3 grades of armor, Light, Medium and heavy. Now, if your PC wore all heavy all the time, maybe eventually you could gain a point of str and a point of end but, do to more limited movement, you would lose a point of agi OR maybe it simply increases damage since you have the mass for stronger blows but gives you an attack speed penalty. Medium would do nothing, no plus or minus in the long term. And light would cause a decrease in str and a bonus to agi OR lower damage slightly due to lack of mass but increase attack speed for the same reason.

Still, these things are basically reflected in game I think already, Since the really heavy armors cause encumbrance, and sap stam, That is the trade you get for being a two legged small bahamet, While light armors often enhance stam and keep you at a nice low enc...which has an effect much like higher agi. And medium armors tend to be neutral.

I just don't agree there should be armor related skills is all.

[Is Friday]

Or they would develop back problems.

/realism

[X-D]

Nah, that would be in the "Humans who wear backpacks made for Half-giants thread."
Or the Half-giants that carry around trunks half as big as them 100% of the time.

[Gunnerblaster]

As much as I love armor proficiency skills in a game, I don't think I'd really like it that much in Armageddon.

I think, when we prioritize our attributes (for those of us that do), I would imagine a player who wants to have a heavy armor-oriented warrior is usually going to lean towards a high strength/endurance to balance out the penalties of the weight whereas a player who creates a character with the focus of rocking light armor is usually going to prioritize other things that take advantage of light-weight combat, such as agility.

Why make a warrior with no priority in strength if you plan to deck him out in silt-horror plate armor?

[Bushranger]

Still, these things are basically reflected in game I think already, Since the really heavy armors cause encumbrance, and sap stam, That is the trade you get for being a two legged small bahamet, While light armors often enhance stam and keep you at a nice low enc...which has an effect much like higher agi. And medium armors tend to be neutral.

I just don't agree there should be armor related skills is all.

I agree with X-D and don't agree there should be any armor related skills.

The only thing that the code has a problem with is that some armor items are set with a really odd weight (and this isn't restricted to just armor items). All that needs to be done I think is vigilance on items and filing a typo on things that crop up with weights that seem off so that they do work as X-D has explained. It might be there is a reason what looks like light boots has the weight of heavy boots or it might be there was a typo in the weight.

[James de Monet]

However, I don't like that, say, a warrior 20 year old human with average strength will never be able to wear heavy armor even at prime age, whereas a burglar 20 year old human who will never wear heavy armor anyway CAN because he rolled a decent amount on it (like very good would be plenty).

I totally understand why that's frustrating, but I'm not certain there's anything unrealistic about it. Even RL soldiers who are smaller and lighter have a much harder time humping a ruck sack, and are very unlikely to be chosen to carry a SAW. Why? Because its heavy, and there are people better suited to it. Also, seeing as we already have the ability to prioritize stats and reroll if needed, I feel like players have ample opportunity to ensure their characters will be able to fit their armor plan, if they're willing to make sacrifices in other areas.

I actually kind of like the realism in increasing a char's STR over time due to average encumbrance, but I think it would just encourage people to walk around with a hundred pounds on them more than we already do, and the stam loss due to heavy loads isn't detrimentally realistic now anyway (IRL wearing heavy plate for anything more than about two hours is a PITA, because its extremely hot, digs in, is uncomfortable to sit in, and the straps sag over time - you really wouldn't be able to own heavy armor without somewhere safe to store it because you CAN'T wear that stuff all the time, but changing IG can be a pain) so I feel that making it beneficially realistic would be unbalanced.

Like the thought, I just don't know if it would be appropriate.

[Harmless]

However, I don't like that, say, a warrior 20 year old human with average strength will never be able to wear heavy armor even at prime age, whereas a burglar 20 year old human who will never wear heavy armor anyway CAN because he rolled a decent amount on it (like very good would be plenty).

I totally understand why that's frustrating, but I'm not certain there's anything unrealistic about it. Even RL soldiers who are smaller and lighter have a much harder time humping a ruck sack, and are very unlikely to be chosen to carry a SAW. Why? Because its heavy, and there are people better suited to it. Also, seeing as we already have the ability to prioritize stats and reroll if needed, I feel like players have ample opportunity to ensure their characters will be able to fit their armor plan, if they're willing to make sacrifices in other areas.

I actually kind of like the realism in increasing a char's STR over time due to average encumbrance, but I think it would just encourage people to walk around with a hundred pounds on them more than we already do, and the stam loss due to heavy loads isn't detrimentally realistic now anyway (IRL wearing heavy plate for anything more than about two hours is a PITA, because its extremely hot, digs in, is uncomfortable to sit in, and the straps sag over time - you really wouldn't be able to own heavy armor without somewhere safe to store it because you CAN'T wear that stuff all the time, but changing IG can be a pain) so I feel that making it beneficially realistic would be unbalanced.

Like the thought, I just don't know if it would be appropriate.

Cool. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

[Qzzrbl]

I only have two things I'd like to see with armor-- both of which are probably already covered.

1. Skill regarding the use of armor. Not so much in wearing it and humping it around, but in learning exactly -where- to take hits with the armor. Better to take a hit on that inch-thick shell on your armguards than your flimsy leather cuirass, right? Wouldn't doubt it if this is already taken into account with the Defense skill.

2. Better use from matched armor sets. Makes sense that you'd get better results wearing bits of armor that were designed to be worn with eachother, right?

[RogueGunslinger]

I only have two things I'd like to see with armor-- both of which are probably already covered.

2. Better use from matched armor sets. Makes sense that you'd get better results wearing bits of armor that were designed to be worn with eachother, right?

If this idea had a brain I would dissect it to learn its intricacies.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I think it'd be nice to have an armor proficiency skill in this game. Some way of accounting for getting used to wearing it all the time. It'd be nice if the "effective encumbrance" of armor (when worn only) was reduced somewhat further as the wearer gets used to it. I think it'd be cool if there were two or three basic categories, for leather/hide/cloth materials, shell/chitin/bone, and for the heaviest materials third like obsidian.

This would be a way to make strength a somewhat less vital stat for the purpose of beating out encumbrance, and allow for high endurance warriors and so on to be more viable as they wouldn't be so slowed down by the weight of their armor as they gained skill.

I'm sure it's been suggested before, but in any case, here's the suggestion again.

Instead of having a skill to make endurance more viable for fighters, why not just make the endurance stat itself have more an effect in general?  Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe endurance has any effect on combat, other than dictating max hitpoints (used up when you're hit) and max stamina (used up when you perform certain combat actions).

Instead of a skill, why not have high endurance have an additional effect of reducing overall encumbrance?  Yes, extreme levels of weight for your character's strength limits currently reduce fighting ability and dictate additional stamina loss for movement.  But endurance doesn't really have any play if you're standing there, or fighting (without using additional combat actions).  A high endurance bonus to encumbrance could take into account the ability for your character to actually take that weight longer than other (similar strength) characters.

As an aside, what I'd like to see an armour proficiency skill for is for armour degredation (and I would very much like to see armour deteriorate more quickly in general, which would open up not only the reason for having the skill, but also the reason for having armour repair skills and potential for further pc interaction as a result).  I'm sure I suggested this several years ago, but I don't think it went anywhere.

[Qzzrbl]

Without giving away too much, endurance already does a -bunch- of stuff as a stat as-is, especially when it comes to combat.

I like to think that the strength star encompasses everything about strength in general, sustained stress included.

[Fujikoma]

I dunno about increased armor degradation... Seems like that'd be more incentive to have two or three sets and visit the tailor frequently, which you'd need a place to store all your heavy stuff, or... Just do without... I don't know about all the logistics to acquiring and storing all the repair materials, but it could leave a lot of people with no real source of income in a bad way, I would think.

But, I dunno. Still new here, what do I know?

[Molten Heart]

I dunno about increased armor degradation... Seems like that'd be more incentive to have two or three sets and visit the tailor frequently, which you'd need a place to store all your heavy stuff, or... Just do without... I don't know about all the logistics to acquiring and storing all the repair materials, but it could leave a lot of people with no real source of income in a bad way, I would think.

But, I dunno. Still new here, what do I know?

I don't know if this would be abuse, but someone could effectively use their local armor tailor to store their heavier armor (tailor the item and just never pick it up until they wanted it, if the item is already tailored they'll still have to pay when they pick it up.   There is one problem though and that is determining which ticket is for which piece of armor, as all the tickets look the same.

[Kismetic]

I'd consider that a bit twinky, but I do believe you can rent items at the bank for a (probably prohibitively large) cost.

[Molten Heart]

I'd consider that a bit twinky, but I do believe you can rent items at the bank for a (probably prohibitively large) cost.

Only jewelry.

[Kismetic]

I'd consider that a bit twinky, but I do believe you can rent items at the bank for a (probably prohibitively large) cost.

Only jewelry.

Probably because of its size.  That'd be a fun character idea, renting a warehouse to lease as storage space for PCs, but I can see where it would get tricky.