Recent Issues I've Seen With The Great Merchant Houses

[williamson]

     After reading all these posts, I do feel that the GMHs have lost some of their luster from the glory days in the 90's. That being said there is still plenty of opportunity to have fun in them. I've read post from numerous people stating that it's more profitable to play an independent than members of the GMHs. I agree that this is true in the short term (which I define as the character's first several RL months). However, after six months or so, I feel the pendulum swings heavily in the other direction. The GMH's members can acquire access to more crafters, NPC guards, wagons, and storage space than any independent. After all, the streets, gardens, and roads aren't usually named after independents.

     I've heard lots of players complaining about not being able to do enough when they join the GMH's. I have some advice to offer these people. Before you join a GMHs or any clan, take at least a RL week and see which characters you share common playing times. If you see the same character four times in the same week, you'll eliminate a lot OOC headaches right from the start. Secondly, for your first RL month as a recruit, you are simply going to be bore with some frequency. As a new recruit, try to remember your place in the world. You're new, largely without skill, no important connections, and not influential. Therefore, don't be surprised if your clan leader isn't spending an hour with you every RL night. Instead, contact your boss and ask them what you can do to help or if they need you to help as a bodyguard. Report to your clan leader frequently and demonstrate that you're trying to get things done. If you do this, pretty soon you'll find your leader contacting you. I realize there are a lot of rules, especially at the start. However, recall that the rules will lax with time or you'll have opportunity to bend them. If all else fails, you can always break the rules. There is nothing wrong with doing this. However, realize there can and will be consequences. Laws prohibiting stealing, smuggling, and cheating never stopped a city elf.

     I feel the decreased interest in the GMHs comes from a variety of factors. First, the GMHs are clans that are over 20 years old. After you've played a successful family member in a GMH, there isn't a great deal of attraction to draw me back to play another one. This might be true for other players as well. Placing promotional caps on these roles is also a drawback. I always enjoyed high ranking GMH members. I feel Senior Agents and Master Merchants added more to the game than they took away. If these ranks were theoretically obtainable, it might draw more veteran players into their ranks. Obviously, it should be very, very difficult to do, but at least possible. Perhaps the difficulty should be on an order of magnitude as living to become a fully branched sorcerer. Though I'm not sure, I also wager that Tuluk's practice of patronage pulls more people away from the GMHs than the pre-patronage age. This will simply be something that the GMH's leaders have to overcome.

     Ender's ideas about enforcing hunting zones and having poachers sounds like a fun a first. However, if this were to start, it would take one talented templar with one or two skilled mages to likely wipe out all independent hunters. The result would be independent hunters living about as long as raiders do. As we know, that's not very long. This isn't particularly fair to off-peak players who don't have the player base to make many clans work. I'd prefer GMHs to try and bully, pressure, or assassinate independents who infringe on their trade monopolies without the templarate doing it for them. I agree that conflict is good, but few want the odds stacked too much against them.

[Adhira]

     
     I feel the decreased interest in the GMHs comes from a variety of factors. First, the GMHs are clans that are over 20 years old. After you've played a successful family member in a GMH, there isn't a great deal of attraction to draw me back to play another one. This might be true for other players as well. Placing promotional caps on these roles is also a drawback. I always enjoyed high ranking GMH members. I feel Senior Agents and Master Merchants added more to the game than they took away. If these ranks were theoretically obtainable, it might draw more veteran players into their ranks. Obviously, it should be very, very difficult to do, but at least possible.

These ranks are still attainable.

[Kismetic]

If the clan leader isn't logging in/not playing for any meaningful amount of time, you might even submit a report to the clan staff letting them know that the person who accepted their special application role isn't living up to their end of the bargain that is usually tagged onto the role call. "Must be able to play regularly."

I've played leaders of the regular and sponsored variety, and have had the good fortune of a busy job, kids and a social life.  I can assure you, the first person to let you know you're coming up short is the clan staff.

It kinda bothers me that there is so much of "I want what I want and I want it NOW" in a world that's supposed to be gritty and difficult.  This thread is like Tuluk to the core, populated with posts by people who supposedly don't "get it."  How's that for irony?

[Patuk]

supposed to be

Yeah, I.. I agree, but I'm just going to highlight where exactly things seem to go wrong.

[Kismetic]

Also, I really like williamson's post.  +1, good sir.

[Narf]

         Ender's ideas about enforcing hunting zones and having poachers sounds like a fun a first. However, if this were to start, it would take one talented templar with one or two skilled mages to likely wipe out all independent hunters. The result would be independent hunters living about as long as raiders do. As we know, that's not very long. This isn't particularly fair to off-peak players who don't have the player base to make many clans work. I'd prefer GMHs to try and bully, pressure, or assassinate independents who infringe on their trade monopolies without the templarate doing it for them. I agree that conflict is good, but few want the odds stacked too much against them.

Ender didn't suggest the templarate enforce the poaching rules at all, much less with wanton killing. I think most people that have posted in favor of the GMH's making life more difficult for hunters were leaning towards direct unofficial enforcement of the rules.

Actually, in my opinion keeping any 'official lawmakers' out of the equation offers far more potential for interesting conflict because it creates more grey area for the poachers to occupy. They're not officially breaking the law, and thus not just getting arrested and killed, but they are nonetheless pissing off some very powerful groups who will take slightly more indirect (and thus more creative and interesting) means to reign them in.

[Jeshin]

Throughout this thread we have indicated that the playerbase has a growing veteran % and that might be why indie hunting is currently more popular than GMH. So not only are their more indie hunters but they are possibly older characters with more experienced players versus GMH hunters (with no templar support) who are less in number, likely younger character, and at best more experienced or equally experienced player.

If we moved to a GMH poaching vs. Indies model. The GMHs PC population would be completely wiped out. Unless staff were involved with NPC animations or something or it was illegal and then the city governments could aide the GMHs. If they didn't get wiped out then the indies would be wiped out. It's a very one way or the other model, just like raiding currently is.

[James de Monet]

Lizzie, I hear what you're saying about how long it can take to get in touch with you clan leadership, but if you are active on your clan boards and not afraid to PM your leadership with requests like, "Hey, I'm bored of sparring. Are there any plotz, special orders, drama, or trouble I can get in on?" if they are even a halfway decent leader OOCly, they will probably try to accommodate you.

It could be the case that they don't have anything going on either, and have been strapped for new, fun ideas lately. At that point, I think it becomes the responsibility of the whole clan to keep things interesting.  If you want leaders to involve you in their plots, involve them in yours! They have an easy "not my problem" out if they want it. But if you come to them, begging for a favor because you have problem X, it might just create some action for everyone.

That said, leaders are frequently busy while IG. They have IC responsibilities and niceties, etc they have to observe. You likely have the option to attach yourself at their hip for such things, and especially if you can do it in pairs, or to an event where there will be other PC underlings, it could be a chance to socialize for you, rather than just spar by yourself. I know it feels like minions should be statues while the "important" people are chatting, but if you think it's not COMPLETELY IC for minions to go gossip in the kitchen while fetching treats for Lady M and her guest, or for soldiers to whisper back and forth like ventriloquists while standing at perfect attention, I would have to disagree.

There will be times leaders will be talking about things they don't want you to hear, but especially for nobles and GMH personnel, they should probably be erring on the side of choosing to forget underlings are present, more often than not, as that is the way feudalistic societies work.  Servants aren't real people, so they get to hear the juicy gossips, sometimes.

[Narf]

If we moved to a GMH poaching vs. Indies model. The GMHs PC population would be completely wiped out. Unless staff were involved with NPC animations or something or it was illegal and then the city governments could aide the GMHs. If they didn't get wiped out then the indies would be wiped out. It's a very one way or the other model, just like raiding currently is.

If it degenerated into direct conflict this might be the case, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. It's different than raiding because no one is explicitly breaking the law, which allows a great deal more subtly and creativity to be used in dealing with the problem.

If I were a GMH leader of a clan that lacked significant manpower I'd probably:
*Try to recruit some heavy hitters, telling them explicitly why they were being hired (Join us, we have something fun that needs doing)
*Bribe some Templars/Soldiers to make life tough for an independent that seems to be flouting my illegitimately assumed authority in a particularly brazen manner
*See if I couldn't put a morratum on dealing with hunters that angered me. (a command for leaders that effectively 'turns off' shops for named characters might be really nice, but even without that you can keep them from getting cool clan-specific gear and masterwork items)
*Buy their mates into my house
*Hire them to go get me some mantis shells.
*Verbally harass them and call into question the non-elfness of their parentage in public with some paid cronies to laugh at my stupid jokes.
*Hire burglars/pickpockets to remind them about the value of having clan lockers
*After my stick got broken, I might try a carrot at some point as well. I heard people like sex money and power, right?

And of course none of these strategies might work, but I'll tell you what; we'd be having fun.

[Hishn]

I am seeing alot of 'I would' or 'they should' happening here. Be the change people. If you feel that GMH are not as busy as you want them to be, then play in GMH. Apply for Leadership positions. Do not just point fingers and make the current leaders feel like poopy-poop.

There are some awesome leaders with awesome plots going on GMH.

So I am not derailing. Things I have seen with GMH:

- sponsored roles being bullied the moment they enter the game with totally fake 'I paid already...' or 'But I was promised this discount...' or 'Give me money for protection.' Their feet are not even sandy yet. Give them a week before you all pounce.
- sponsored roles being treated like vending machines by players who then complain ICly that said sponsored role is never around, they're shit at their job, etc simply because their play times do not mesh up or hell, they have a Real Life and cannot invest 24 hours, 7 days a week like some players can.
- independents expecting GMH to okay them starting not at the bottom like everyone else just because they can already make this or that or have so much money.
- sponsored roles being pooped on when they cannot immediately make a new design on a whim, for no money down.
- sponsored roles being pooped on when they cannot immediately make an order present on a whim, considering item orders are done once a real-world week.
- sponsored roles being pooped on when they cannot immediately make something exist when it does not and not accepting the options said sponsored role gives them.
- players feeling GMH are bland/plotless who are not playing in GMH to even see how wrong they are.

I help my leaders make GMH awesome and I thank them every chance I can because they make staffing these clans -awesome-.

[Maso]

Perfect post Hishn! I feel really sorry for all the current GMH leaders right now...this whole thread must have made them feel rubbish! Thank you guys for stepping up to the job and giving it your best, I've had some great experiences with GMH's over the last year.

Personally, the problem I'm seeing is people not -wanting- to be in GMH's because...basically...they can make more coin as indies. That's it, plain and simple.

[Kassindra]

Personally, the problem I'm seeing is people not -wanting- to be in GMH's because...basically...they can make more coin as indies. That's it, plain and simple.

I see that a lot as well but I guess I'm one of those "join a clan to support" types and that's what I actually enjoy doing to be honest. I like being a minion who supports a leader. I've never really had an indie. And good post Hishn, it was really spot on because I noticed all those exact things the last time I was in a GMH. Every single point listed, I've seen. So hopefully this thread helps some change!

[number13]

I super suck at leadership roles, so bearing in mind that I have no business telling others how to play a leader:

How about making those independents offers they can't refuse? Join, pay up, or be divested of coin/limb/life. Members of clans have a place in the political landscape. Independents by definition do not. An independent flaunting their wealth should be prey to templars and maybe nobles.

I don't understand how a crafter/hunter/whatever without a clan can actually keep their fancy stuff, ICly. What's stopping the templars from mugging them on a daily basis? The militia, the Guild, the nobility could all be motivated with various carrots to make life difficult for PCs taking a bite out of Merchant House business. The advantage of membership is political cover.  As a GMH employee, you get to actually keep the coins you earn.

For off-peak players, the situation is self-correcting. It's way easier to dodge the attention of roving bands of mugging militia if they aren't logged on. So, off-peakers could do their independent thing without having to worry as much about acquiring cover.

[Malken]

I don't understand how a crafter/hunter/whatever without a clan can actually keep their fancy stuff, ICly. What's stopping the templars from mugging them on a daily basis? The militia, the Guild, the nobility could all be motivated with various carrots to make life difficult for PCs taking a bite out of Merchant House business.  The advantage of membership is political cover.  As a GMH employee, you get to actually keep the coins you earn.

You assume that all indies are helpless characters with a whole lot of money and absolutely no allies to back them up.

In Tuluk, an indie can be an indie and still have the backing of a Chosen Lord/Lady or even a Faithful Lord/Lady, those are called patrons and they still allow indies to be.. Well.. indies.

In the south, indies can bribe Templars to have some added protection, they can pay off rhinties to keep them from mugging/stealing from them and they can also have a semblance of a patron with a Lord or Lady of one of the major Houses, as well..

People seem to think that having a vast amount of money is useless on Arm unless you're in a GMH as well, it's only useless if you never use it/don't know how to use it.

I think that one problem I see here is that indies often have MORE money to pay off others to be left alone than GMH merchants may have to spend on having that nobody hunter/crafter harassed.

[Hishn]

This thread has been served.