Recent Issues I've Seen With The Great Merchant Houses

[Travel Cake]

On occasion I have played family roles in every great merchant house, including Nenyuk way back when. It used to be easier. There were always people who wanted to be part of the team.

In the last few years, things really shifted away and there is a greater desire to play the rich independent. People seem to be arguing that it's stupid to play a hunter with a finite income when you could play an independent and make more than a noble or more than ten nobles. I think that's having a huge negative impact on the game and here's why:

Family Roles Poorly Impacted -
Everyone complains that you can never find a merchant or an agent anymore. There should be active family in all the major population centers but people aren't applying for the roles when they're posted. When the roles are filled people are quitting quickly. People who keep the roles seem to be short on people to hire, leading them to hire almost anyone, which diminishes the cache of the position, or working without support.

Meanwhile, the game world is very demanding. Everyone wants everything from you. They want it now. They treat you like a gumball machine, and without minions there is no buffer. 

So, one quantifiable effect is that you have fewer Merchants and Agents available.

Harsh Desert Planet Poorly Impacted -
The thing about clans is that they give you a place for camaraderie, and potentially for a place to have people you can count on, maybe trust. There is safety. The ooc benefits include increased opportunities for role play.


You Can't Win Armageddon -
While codedly you can do better on your own, it doesn't add as much to the game to have people making a bazillion sid on their own while the clans that should be full languish. The building of personal empires is a lovely goal, but again, not giving as much to the game as having the clans that should be bedrock languish.

So, while it's nice to have measures of your pc's success in terms like huge bank accounts and big expensive bling, I think that we're losing the game, not winning with these measures of achievement. You can't take any of that sid to the grocery store. Why is it better to make more sid in a way that's less game positive than to make less in a way that adds more to the game world?

[Is Friday]

I agree with OP, but I believe most players are and always will be primarily concerned with: Looking cool, being "right" or "justified", OOC fame, or personal fun revolving around their selfish goals as a player.

[Desertman]

You won't see an IC change in mindset towards these sorts of roles until you create an OOC incentive to create change on a meaningful scale.

Until joining a House is OOC'ly recognized as "winning" on some level by the playerbase, you just won't see people flocking to it. Right now it is fairly common knowledge that you can make more as a indy hunter than a House hunter, at least in the shortterm, and since most hunters, including House hunters, don't live long enough to become the highest ranking member of that clan and finally break that financial threshold, most people choose to go indy.

Until joining a House somehow shifts that mindset on an OOC level this problem will persist in my opinion.

[X-D]

I don't know, I really think all of you are wrong.

The amount of coin my PC makes has never been a reason to join or not join a house...of any kind. And I really think that most players, you all included are really the same way. My PCs join houses/clans because either it is ICly something they would do, or I made the PC to do something with that clan. And from what I have seen from the 3 posters already, and most other players, it is the same for you. When I make a tribal, it is not because my PC wants coin, or even cool tribal clothes, it is because I want to play in that tribe with that mindset. When I play an indy, it is because I want to play a PC that for whatever reason, does not feel he fits in a clan.

The only problem I have seen with clans...recently, is that Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting...A bit of anecdotal evidence on the matter.

Back when our playerbase was about half or less then it is now, say oh, 2002, every single recruiting clan made sure to camp the spawn areas...You would almost literally get jumped on by two or three recruiters the moment you entered the game. Combat clans drooled and almost came to blows trying to recruit half-giants and dwarves, merchant clans were jumping all over the humans and even breeds sometimes. If you started in the rinth you could and were often pressed into the guild.

Now of course, there was that compatition because there was so few players (the resource). Now though, I enter the game as a HG, start in nak, nobody tries to recruit him, go to Luirs, Nobody tries there, go to Tuluk...nobody tries there. Nobody EVER tried to recruit my last HG, he actually had to go in search of a clan. In fact, In the cases of my last 10 PCs that would join clans, every single one of them had to hunt down a clan to join.

Now, if I am playing a leaderish type PC, and you can ask others, including staff, the clan I am in, almost always becomes one of the largest, if not the largest clans in PC population in the game. And why, because my leaders recruit, they have minions who search for people to recruit. It is normally a general order to the minions, keep yours eyes open for the type of people we need, befriend them, talk to them, get them wanting to join up.

I know it has been said before, but in this case, the saying "be the change" REALLY works, you want your clans to fill up with PCs, WORK at it. Because many of us are simply waiting to get recruited, but when that does not happen, we just go on our own. What is really funny to me is, If you have been waiting, and have been indy a while, there is even less likelyhood of anybody trying to recruit you, because people simply don't try and recruit established indies. I do though, When I had my last Byn sarge, I recruited 20 and 40 day PCs into the byn as runners.

[Narf]

I've always been of the opinion that Merchant Houses should just do what they can to make life tough on independents.

1) It gives the houses more to do
2) It gives the independents an oppressive force (way more fun!)
3) It creates a common goal for minions that doesn't require too much direction
4) And maybe it solves the personnel problem if you actually get good at bullying (which you should eventually, even if things start out kinda roughshod)

Out of curiosity, are leaders actually asked not to do this sort of thing? I've never been a leader in a real clan before. Maybe it's just too much hassel, but honestly being an oppressive bullying jackass would add a lot more to the game than being a gumball machine. I think if you've only got time for one or the other, lean towards bully.

[Jeshin]

During the rolecall for Agent/Overseer/Crew Leader/Senior Merchant/Junior Agent/Whatever, it would certainly be interesting if they also asked for Hunting Crew Leaders, Merchants, etc etc as well. When the Akai Sjir has a rolecall they look for a Dealer AND minions. Given the current state of the GMHs, I could totally see the benefit of being accepted and having a mid-ranking commoner joining at the same time as you.

[BuNutzCola]

X-D definitely has it right, but I feel personally that the GMH's have suffered over the years.

GMH's thrive of competition. Not just with independents, but internal, and other houses.

In my honest opinion, there should be a minimum of 2 roles for at least kadius/salarr/kurac for both north and south and south (yes that is 10-12 sponsored roles), kurac perhaps can relegate to 2 in luirs.

Kadius, Salarr at least in the south where I've played the past few years, have virtually no presence in game pc-wise.

Granted times are different now, but when I last played a GMH agent in 2007, it was an incredible experience. There were 3 active Kadian family members, a couple salarri's, a couple kuraci's, and each of those clans were bursting at the seams with PC's.

More roles for each house not only lightens the OOC burden on pc's by spreading the workload, but also generates opportunities for great conflict both internally and externally.

[Travel Cake]

Stuff.

All true.

[Desertman]

I don't know, I really think all of you are wrong.

The amount of coin my PC makes has never been a reason to join or not join a house...of any kind. And I really think that most players, you all included are really the same way. My PCs join houses/clans because either it is ICly something they would do, or I made the PC to do something with that clan. And from what I have seen from the 3 posters already, and most other players, it is the same for you. When I make a tribal, it is not because my PC wants coin, or even cool tribal clothes, it is because I want to play in that tribe with that mindset. When I play an indy, it is because I want to play a PC that for whatever reason, does not feel he fits in a clan.

The only problem I have seen with clans...recently, is that Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting...A bit of anecdotal evidence on the matter.

I agree that the majority of people do not join Houses for the money. I meant to make that a point in my original post. You don't join a House for financial reasons as a indy hunter, because typically, you make more as a indy. Joining for a financial gain is almost counter-roleplay-realistic.

If House positions were changed so that people would find the positions more attractive, the way they should based on the documentation, you wouldn't have to push recruiting.

Salarr shouldn't be "pushing" recruiting, they should be beating people off with a stick who are begging them for jobs because being a House employee should be a highly sought after position.

I dont think the problem is, "Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting", I think the problem goes deeper, in the fact that they shouldn't have to be "pushing" anything at all, they should have to turn people away regularly.  


To take it a step further, I think that certain leaders should be "pushing" their compensation packages more liberally than they do. If the House its self wont put up the cash to make those positions more appealing, maybe they are trying to say, "Hey Agent/Overseer/Family Member, that is your job, make the position more appealing."

[Flincher]

The only real benefit I've discovered from joining houses on two characters is that you have an unlimited supply of food and therefore have no expenses allowing you to save.

On the other hand there is little actual work for you to do within these houses and there is very little in the way of profit. Basically the best thing to do is join a house and start saving your money long term.

Pros: Houses have influence and power, smart people might be able to influence their position to make more money and gather more power to themselves.

Cons: Don't earn as much money as you possibly could alone, you are a bit trapped/restricted in your house from doing certain things.

Solutions: Nerf the money faucets that rain money on independents in particular.

[Morrolan]

The OOC problem that player leaders face in recruiting for Merchant Houses is that there is little cost for our characters dying.

Sure, RP says that our characters want to live. But seriously, if we watch what characters do, that just isn't so.

Anecdotal and personal experience show that characters associated with GMH (who make it past a RL week or two, and can manage to follow some basic rules) have the opportunity to  go on and lead relatively productive, long lives.

Indy hunters, it seems, rise to wealth, get cocky, get lucky a few times, get unlucky once, and die. The players just go on, it sometimes seems, to create new characters of the same type. This may not be entirely true--maybe there is a constant influx of players who do this--but since the average character lives about 3 weeks, it is probably at least partly true.

When a character dies, a player immediately checks new Karma levels, and then apps. Almost always, within 24 hours, they're back on the horse (kank, beetle, whatever).

Is it possible that characters not approaching GMHs is actually a reflection of the lower approval times for characters? If players can get back in the game that quickly, there is little OOC cost for risk-taking, especially for anyone who likes grind more than RP.

I'm not suggesting that we increase approval times to punish players for letting their characters die. But understanding the multiple roots of the problem may allow us to craft an effective solution.

EDIT for grammar.

[X-D]

Actually, I am saying that money does not matter one direction or another.

Shoulda, coulda woulda...The fact of the matter is, people LIKE to be recruited, they like people to want them, or at least feel that way, this is not something that is going to change, no matter what you add to the houses. If people are not out actively recruiting the clan membership will always be luke warm at best. Course, keeping them once you recruit them is another matter, for another thread. Course being rid of that life oath sillyness for any clan goes a long way. Luckily most non-noble clans have modified that requirement.

As to there being "little work" And "little profit" That is never the fault of the clan itself...but the leaders, sorry folks, if it seems like I am picking on leader types. But if you are playing one then sure, you are supposed to be advancing your house and all that, but if you want players...well, you have to give them work and profits of some kind. Again, going to my own experience. I never had a problem keeping a large and fun crew around, be it Salarr, Winrothol, Byn etc. Aside from active recruiting, I also had plenty of work for the minions...along with gifts and other bonuses.

In short, again, Be the change, make your house/clan attractive, hell, enough active recruiting, to get even 4 or 5 players in, then keeping it fun WILL have people knocking down your door. People will go to the "fun" active clans. When I had a sarge in Salarri expansion division, it started off slow, But there was a couple fun, active, actively recruiting salarr family members, once we had a solid base, people were constantly trying to join. After a very short period we started turning people away, not long after that, staff even said "Hey, let us cool the recruiting for the time being.

You can change all the docs etc you want to a clan, in the end, if you want people to play, you have to get them there and make others want to play.

[Riev]

I think XD has it right, people want to feel wanted. I played a Salarri... I guess we'll call it an Aide for now. When I asked to join, I was told "You know what? If you can find us some hunters, I'll totally hire you on." I was pissed because, damnit, I wanted in. Within about a RL hour, I had three new PCs sitting at a table with me, and I contacted that leader again and asked if that would be enough. It was as simple as -asking- people if they wanted to join Salarr, and mentioning a few benefits.

I would agree that the presence of the GMHs doesn't feel as pronounced, lately. I know there is a call for Kadians, but I've seen a Kadian once in my last RL month of playing. Salarris maybe three times. Whether this is because they're all in their Compounds, crafting their woodys into wads, I don't know.

[Morrolan]

There are 3 GMHs. I don't think this is already the case, but I think this would be easier for players if (staff-side) a decision were made that Salarr would focus in the South (makes sense), Kurac on Luir's and (to a lesser extent) Storm, and Kadius on the North.

That doesn't mean that there would be zero presence elsewhere, but (like Byn North) that it would only be done secondarily.

So if you (as a player) want to join Salarr, you automatically know that the active office is in the south. And if you want to join Kadius, the active office is in the North. Kurac is...where it always is.

Then again, maybe this is already being done. I'm so into my current character, I'm hardly paying attention to role announcement.

P.S. Yes, my suggestion is based on stereotypes. In the North, people compete by dressing in silks. In the South, people compete by dressing in armor. In Luir's, people come in from the sands to trade.

P.P.S. This suggestion is partly in response to the "using GMH members as gumball machines" problem as well. Allowing players to build up a local powerbase will help in getting many of their customers back in line. An automatic assumption that a GMH agent won't come running themselves, but will send a competent minion to take measurements, might make these positions more palatable, as well.

[Twilight]

Here is an idea as an incentive.

House employees have access to resources, including tools, knowledge, raw materials, training and collaboration with other professionals that indy's can only dream of.  Reflect this by giving those employees who can mastercraft additional mastercraft slots in the areas their House specializes in.  Something like, if a Salarri mastercrafts armor/weapon, they get to mastercraft 2x a month.  If they do something from another craft, they only get the 1.

[Fredd]

I sort of agree, sort of disagree with OP.

When i played my Kadian, I filled my crew up with hunters, and crafters, to the point that I had to turn them down. How did I manage this? by playing an active, well rounded Family member with flaws, that was always looking for something to do, and coming up with things for everyone.

But it wasn't easy. I started off alone, in my first sponsored role. Had no crew, alright sid, and an AWESOME support team from the staff. Part of the problem is that recruit hunters aren't paid. So, i took coin from my own pocket, and provided bonuses of gear and booze ect to my hunters when we had a good half month. But to do that, I had to handle a barrage of orders and needy people. And a lot of people get burnt out from that. So what's my idea?

When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.

[Riev]

I'd also like to step in here with a quick quip about the effect of the Byn with GMHs too...


When I first started, surviving your year in the Byn made you -extremely- valuable in the eyes of the GMHs. To the point where, really, some would wave the 1year recruitment period because you'd -shown- you can take orders and not die on contracts. Being able to say "Yeah I used to be a Trooper with the Gortoks" meant "I'm here for the long haul and worth your investment."

These days, GMHs (seem) to have the same interest in Troopers as they do straight out of chargen newbies with no mount or weapons. Maybe as part of "Active recruiting" more GMH leaders can sponsor or offer to pay a portion of a Byn fee, with the promise that they'd look into hiring after the year, maybe with an accelerated time of recruitment.

Granted, 300 coins for a leader isn't a paltry sum, but over the course of the water and food, and stabling fees (all virtual) I could see how it'd be a better investment than just hiring. Maybe this all just goes more into XDs idea of constant recruitment, and making people feel like you want them. Or maybe leaders just don't do it as much because they want people in their clan so badly, they don't want to wait 6 weeks for a new personality to interact with.

[Gunnerblaster]

When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.

Totally in agreement.

As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.

So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.

Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.

First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.

[Riya OniSenshi]

When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.

Totally in agreement.

As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.

So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.

Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.

First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.

This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.

[Fredd]

When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.

Totally in agreement.

As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.

So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.

Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.

First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.

This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.

Then a Family member, and a life sworn minion. Either will do.

But plotting against each other is good too, IMHO.

[Gunnerblaster]

When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.

Totally in agreement.

As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.

So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.

Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.

First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.

This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.

Yeah - I didn't mention that both were Family members. The combat-oriented counterpart to the Agent doesn't have to be Family. A simple life-sworn Hunter character who starts off with a bump to combat skills. If the life-sworn role ever tries to leave the House, they're force-stored to avoid players taking advantage of easy-start buffed characters.

[Desertman]

Or just hunted as deserters IC'ly.

[Riya OniSenshi]

When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.

Totally in agreement.

As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.

So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.

Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.

First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.

This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.

Yeah - I didn't mention that both were Family members. The combat-oriented counterpart to the Agent doesn't have to be Family. A simple life-sworn Hunter character who starts off with a bump to combat skills. If the life-sworn role ever tries to leave the House, they're force-stored to avoid players taking advantage of easy-start buffed characters.

Yeah, I meant to edit out yours, then I forgot. It's Fredd's quote that I meant. I get the feeling he's never had to live through that tediousness and asshattery in a clan with that going on. It's destructive to the clan, the PCs of the clan that arn't those two, and detrimental to the jobs those two -should- be doing.

[Gunnerblaster]

Or just hunted as deserters IC'ly.

That work's too but I'd imagine if their character's already well-established. I was just saying, on the off-chance, that someone takes the role for life sworn, then less than IRL month later rebels and strikes off on their own the moment the House seems to start going inactive.

Part of being a leader is surviving the innumerable down times of a clan.

[catchall]

I also agree with the X-D philosophy here.  Sure, you can say "Well, ICly, people should be banging down the door to join my clan because Zalanthas is harsh, and I work for a GMH, so I'm entitled to eager applicants!" That's a cop-out. If you aren't trying to recruit, or worse, you just aren't making your clan fun, you have no one to blame but yourself for your empty clan.  The answer definitely isn't to make independent life less fun to make boring clan X look better in comparison.

If you just can't get over the mental block of having to go out and recruit, well, think a little harder about the virtual world. You can imagine that VNPCs are banging down your door if you want, but chances are, most of those VPNCs are pretty crap.  If you really want talented, capable employees, just like in real life, they are going to be rarer than the desperate, unskilled masses, and you're probably going to have to compete against other houses or other divisions within your own house to get ahold of those capable employees.  And for our purposes, those capable employees come from the PC population.  If you want good employees, you will have to put in some effort.