Furthering commerce and trade on Zalanthas

[Desertman]

I was just having this discussion the other day actually. (About spice.)

In general the majority of the playerbase will not make purchases that do not in some way further their ability to "win the game". A lot of people will, but from what I have observed, most people just want to win.

The key to getting the playerbase to do something is to give them an OOC incentive of some nature beyong the rewards of "good roleplay" that will tempt them to participate in said activity.

I've always been of the opinion that certain types of spice should lend more of an "incentive" to be used in certain situations than they currently do. You create enough of an incentive, people will buy it for reasons beyond "this pc happens to be a spicer". I would also like to see addiction come about more easily/have more negative consequences to not keeping your addiction fed.

You must create the OOC incentive in order to see a meaningful IC change in my experience.

[Maso]

Oh would definitely be cool to see everyday items wear out rather than just armor and rather than Kar from fighting. Gloves and tools from crafting, shoes and clothes from just being worn and walked in, even silks. I quite dislike that I buy stuff and it just lasts forever. I don't want to not keep buying stuff, I want to contribute to the economy, but that can also end up with hoarding.

Give me a reason to throw shit out!

[Maso]

There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.

[Barsook]

I think wearing stuff out should help the most.  It's more realistic and it can help with the encon of the game.

[Desertman]

There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.

I understand and respect your opinion.

However, I am of the opinion that if this were the case, we wouldn't be entertaining a conversation regarding the concept that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be.

[Desertman]

I think wearing stuff out should help the most.  It's more realistic and it can help with the encon of the game.

I like this too.

I am also not opposed to certain materials acting more like their earthly counterparts.

For example, I would like to see pure obsidian weapons be much more prone to shattering and thus replacement.

[Nyr]

There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.

I understand and respect your opinion.

However, I am of the opinion that if this were the case, we wouldn't be entertaining a conversation regarding the concept that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be.

I think the conversation points were this:

"there's a low demand in Allanak for something that is illegal in Allanak" or "I don't see that many people in Allanak showing me their spice habit, which--by the way--is illegal" or "spice should be something I can hawk to NPCs in Allanak or the rinth"

not

"spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be"

You can make a living as a spice grebber without PC involvement.  It's not quite shit for pay, but it won't make you 'sid hand over fist, either.
You can make a living selling processed or unprocessed spice illegally or legally, but you're going to be doing that with PCs for the most part.

[Desertman]

There are plenty of coded incentives to buying and using spice.

I understand and respect your opinion.

However, I am of the opinion that if this were the case, we wouldn't be entertaining a conversation regarding the concept that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be.

I think the conversation points were this:

"there's a low demand in Allanak for something that is illegal in Allanak" or "I don't see that many people in Allanak showing me their spice habit, which--by the way--is illegal" or "spice should be something I can hawk to NPCs in Allanak or the rinth"

not

"spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be"

You can make a living as a spice grebber without PC involvement.  It's not quite shit for pay, but it won't make you 'sid hand over fist, either.
You can make a living selling processed or unprocessed spice illegally or legally, but you're going to be doing that with PCs for the most part.

Ahh, I see what you mean.

In that case, that isn't the conversation I am having.

I am still of the opinion that spice isn't used as readily as one would think it should be, inside or outside of Allanak. I am also still of the opinion that my suggestion would resolve some of the previous points listed in the conversation I wasn't necessarily directly addressing, but appear to have addressed in the peripheral.

[Nyr]

Lack of in-game or IC knowledge (or the use of that knowledge or product) doesn't necessarily lead to a lack of incentive to use.  The incentive is there and can be discovered in-game or IC or what-have-you.

[Desertman]

Lack of in-game or IC knowledge (or the use of that knowledge or product) doesn't necessarily lead to a lack of incentive to use.  The incentive is there and can be discovered in-game or IC or what-have-you.

I am/was aware of said incentive. I think there is some confusion. I'm not in favor of "adding" an incentive, as though I thought there wasn't one, I am in favor of "adjusting" said incentive that already exists.

[Nyr]

I get where you are coming from.

[Erythil]

I like the idea of tools wearing out and a junk item buyer.  I do not like the idea of clothes wearing out.  I have seen this implemented on another game and it really didn't contribute much to the free circulation of money and just wound up being an un-fun hassle and making everyone poorer.

[Maso]

I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.

I think clothes wearing out is pretty unrealistic. Armor wearing out, makes sense. Clothes, not so much. My mother still has, wears regularly, and fits into, clothes she had 20 years ago that aren't so much as faded. I know, 20 years is a long time, but I played the same mud as Erythil, and the code that made clothing wear out was just awful.

The only thing I would approve of on that would be if they wore out if you went and got them cut up or just plain put them through hell.

It's been said several times before that nobles and the people with mad sid who should be wearing all the silks and fashions are generally expected to put their funds toward funding plots. How is making their fancy silks wear out quicker going to affect that?

[Fredd]

I think clothes wearing out would be entirely Zalanthan...you wouldn't have to buy new clothes, you would just have to wear old battered clothes, which makes sense if you are too poor to buy new clothes. Currently it's pretty unrealistic. Clothes just last forever.

They do get stained and worn out. but it's not easy. I've actually had staff do it to mess with my Kadian I played. it was fun rp.

[Barsook]

But they don't wear out all the way to rags.

[Maso]

I think clothes wearing out is pretty unrealistic. Armor wearing out, makes sense. Clothes, not so much. My mother still has, wears regularly, and fits into, clothes she had 20 years ago that aren't so much as faded.

Does she wear the same outfit every day like most Zalanthans? Or keep them in a hot, unsanitary world, stuffed in a chest? Clothes get worn through, holes in, torn, stained etc...all the time, in my world anyway. :/

It's been said several times before that nobles and the people with mad sid who should be wearing all the silks and fashions are generally expected to put their funds toward funding plots. How is making their fancy silks wear out quicker going to affect that?

Nobles are too poor anyway, poor nobles.

[Erythil]

Look, let's come at this from another angle.  Is it fun?  I really don't see this adding to anyone's sense of fun.  There's already code for clothes to get bloody, permanently stained, permanently scorched, tattered, etc.  I've had it happen even to upper class characters.  It might be realistic, but I don't think it would improve anyone's gameplay experience.

The tools wearing out I support because it would make toolmaking an actually valuable skill.

[Barsook]

Look, let's come at this from another angle.  Is it fun?  I really don't see this adding to anyone's sense of fun.  There's already code for clothes to get bloody, permanently stained, permanently scorched, tattered, etc.  I've had it happen even to upper class characters.  It might be realistic, but I don't think it would improve anyone's gameplay experience.

Yes, it would be fun because it gives more reason to roleplay a poor person if there is another reason behind it.  I would like to see more PC beggers.

[Barsook]

(I think we have derailed this topic...)

[Maso]

Yeah, I think it would add to the experience. Genuinely. Those rich indie characters...why are they so rich? Because they have nothing to spend their money on and they have no room for anything else in their apartments.You set yourself up once with a lot of things, and then you never need to buy them again. Make poor people look poor. Stop the indies in the 'middle' from getting stupid rich by giving them a reason to keep spending. Let nobles and GMH family members be the only one who can afford a clean change of silks for every day.

I wanna see more dirty clothes, more tattered clothes. That crafter with the silk dress who got fired from Kadius and has been sleeping in the slums at the back of the Gaj in her silks every day...should now be wearing tattered silk.

If it happens too quickly, sure it would just be irritating, but the clothes would still be wearable, they'd just look more appropriate for your station. It adds flavor. And grit.

[Erythil]

I guess I'll just have to politely disagree.  I don't think beggar is a fun role, personally -- it seems like the sort of thing that might be good for occassional flavor but would eventually grow oppressive.  People are roleplaying for escapism, at a certain level, after all, and I think the core reason the harsh environment of armageddon is appealing is because beating the odds is rewarding.  If you make it too harsh I think you just run the risk of making it onerous and burdensome.

Personally I don't see why people dislike the success of independent merchants so much.  The deck is already stacked pretty high against them in a lot of ways.

On that game I played that introduced item decay code, the admins were constantly recalibrating all of the code for commerce in a constant effort to try and make it more difficult to get rich.  People always found a way to game the system, but it just progressively made the process of earning wealth less fun, and the way to do so more obscure, in effect just further concentrating the wealth and power in the hands of those willing to twink.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah, I think it would add to the experience. Genuinely. Those rich indie characters...why are they so rich? Because they have nothing to spend their money on and they have no room for anything else in their apartments.You set yourself up once with a lot of things, and then you never need to buy them again. Make poor people look poor. Stop the indies in the 'middle' from getting stupid rich by giving them a reason to keep spending. Let nobles and GMH family members be the only one who can afford a clean change of silks for every day.

I wanna see more dirty clothes, more tattered clothes. That crafter with the silk dress who got fired from Kadius and has been sleeping in the slums at the back of the Gaj in her silks every day...should now be wearing tattered silk.

If it happens too quickly, sure it would just be irritating, but the clothes would still be wearable, they'd just look more appropriate for your station. It adds flavor. And grit.

The problem here is:

Nobles and many gmh pcs... CAN'T ACTUALLY AFFORD THAT in many cases. And this will only make it worse.

The people who have all the extra sid though, they will be able to.

Tools wearing out, armor and weapons wearing out quicker, I see all of that. But I think the clothing code is fine as it is.

[Dalmeth]

We do want there to be room for independent crafters, merchants, and independent organizations.  With that said, that should not be at detriment to existing clans.  We will be reviewing situations with independents, but probably not in this direction.  If anything, there are a handful of indie crafters/merchants that make too much money without the social and political cajones (and RP) to back that up.

I think your understanding is simplistic.  I think those handful of indie crafters/merchants are the only people who can make consistent amounts of coin.

As it stands, the goal of any PC seller is to find the magic set of goods that will empty a merchant's coffers in one go.  No matter what tweaks you make to the system, that will always be the goal, to get as much profit from an individual NPC merchant as possible, and the only significant factor there is base coin in inventory.  A few players will always be well-positioned to empty an NPC merchant when their coin is plentiful, and those players will always look exorbitantly rich.

So long as you try to lock off NPC coffers with increasingly obscure combinations of goods, there will always be a player who finds a combination that will allow them to empty a merchant's coffers in one go.  So long as each NPC merchant is a lock with a key of a certain combination of goods, a player will always play that game and, "win."  This system does not distribute merchant coin among many PC buyers.

And the number of players who can win, while not a fixed number for any given number of circumstances, is fairly limited.

[Maso]

Nobles and many gmh pcs... CAN'T ACTUALLY AFFORD THAT in many cases.

That's a completely separate issue and discussion. I'm not trying to upset anyone. I just think -I- find it too easy to look prim and proper. I also think that if you degrade clothing you automatically open the opportunity for more trade and commerce...which was the point of this thread. More buying and selling.