Jail sentences

[ohdannyboy]

Are Zalanthans ever sentenced to years in jail or is it always just for brief holding before corporal punishment? I realize PCs don't get longer jail sentences, but it could factor into backgrounds and such.

[BadSkeelz]

I severely doubt it. Historically, long-term imprisonment as punishment is only a recent development. Until the 18th and 19th centuries, corporal punishment is the norm. Nobles in the Middle Ages would be confined for purposes of ransom, but a thief would only be imprisoned until a judge could decide what to do with him. As Zalanthan resources are so scarce, no one is going to spend 'sid feeding, clothing, and watching some prisoner at length unless they're stupendously important. If you do something that warrants long term imprisonment, you'll probably just be made a slave and put to work in the mines or some such.

[Calavera]

The main OOC issue with sentencing people to lengthy stretches of jail time is that this is a game people play to interact with others. Shutting someone away in a jail cell room by themselves for any time longer than a few hours is pretty boring.

If we had the playerbase to support a prisoners 'clan' where people in jail would be guaranteed interaction and had stuff to do such as get into fights, murder each other, plan escapes, or what-have-you then it might be a different story. As things currently stand, staff aren't hugely keen on people spending longer than a few hours at a time in a jail cell unless arrested for something that absolutely requires a PC law-enforcer to deal with.

[Lizzie]

Since the OP asked about it factoring into backgrounds - I interpreted the question hypothetically...

would it make sense, given the game world's theme and environment and culture, for a PC to have spent his youth in jail for a myriad of offenses? Like, Randy Rinthrat grew up on the mean back alleys of Allanak, picking pockets from passersby whenever he'd venture out to the other half of the city. As such, he spent most of his time in jail, because he was a clumsy thief and untrained.

Would something like that be reasonable and possible, to put in a background, in the game world of Zalanthas? Or, would a rinth-rat never make it that far and be sent to the arena by the time he had his second offense? So a PC coming out of the Hall of Kings would - or would not - have this kind of background to explain what he's been up to, til this point.


I -think- that's the question behind the question. OP correct me if I"m misunderstanding.

[Narf]

Since the OP asked about it factoring into backgrounds - I interpreted the question hypothetically...

I've had a character that had a several year jail sentence in their background that was approved before, if that helps.

[Jenred]

Are Zalanthans ever sentenced to years in jail or is it always just for brief holding before corporal punishment? I realize PCs don't get longer jail sentences, but it could factor into backgrounds and such.

Yes.

But as someone already mentioned it would be tied to a more important character.
Perhaps a political prisoner, or leader of a warband, gang, or something else.
So you'd have to consider those things when writing your background too, and anything that would likely warrant having been imprisoned for years would be correlated to additional concepts that would require staff approval.

[Wug]

Yeah. If you want to make an app like that, shoot a request off to the Allanak/Tuluki Templarate first.

[Kismetic]

I think being in and out of jail is reasonable, as long as the same Templar doesn't catch you more than once, right?  Extended stay doesn't seem to fit with the theme of the world, though.

[BleakOne]

In Allanak I don't think they'd mind sending someone to the 'sid mines or something for a few years of forced labour. Tuluk might do something similar but less visible.

I'd go with the arguement that nobody wants to spend sid feeding and watering anyone, when a good whipping/mutilation/fine/humilation or such is so much more enjoyable for the Templar involved.

[Lutagar]

It's also possible a Templar would tell a jailed thief something along the lines of, "I want fifty percent of your profits from here on in." and offer semi-immunity from jail so long as the thief isn't doing anything that the afforementioned Templar can't turn a blind eye to. Semi as in you'd be spending alot of time in jail to wait to recieve a slap your wrist before being tossed back out into the street.

[X-D]

I'd get my next 3 PCs jailed in nak IF...

They made the Rinth jail, Seal it off totally, Make it no longer a starting point.

Be like Crematoria.

[Bushranger]

I'd get my next 3 PCs jailed in nak IF...

They made the Rinth jail, Seal it off totally, Make it no longer a starting point.

Be like Crematoria.

So would I. You can be bald X-D, my character will be called Snake.

[Twilight]

I think there is long term jail sentences, at least in Nak.  Its called slavery.

Before current policy, templars would occassionally sentence someone who committed a crime to lifetime or X amount of time of slavery.

[Molten Heart]

For player characters (as opposed to npcs and vnpcs), death or storage is preferred to a long isolated life of solo RP.  This sort of thing is fine for a background. 

This reminds me of two times I was captured and help prisoner.  Sitting around solo RPing hoping one of your captor's might show up can be trying (fortunately the torture and the adrenalin made up for it both times, even though I died trying to escape the second time.

[Incognito]

Prolonged jail sentences would be kinda acceptable, IF the jails could be broken into by outsiders, or, IF the people inside the jails could someone plot their own escapes.

Currently there are very severe limitations on both these options - I wont go into further IC details.

Nonetheless, it'd be cool to have something like this possible - and then have people who were perma-flagged WANTED in one city-state or another, or all of them too

One obvious solution of course is - allowing NPC jailers to be bribed - and allowing outsiders to visit jails (to pass over cash or jailbreaking equipment).

It'd help if the jails weren't physically located within the templar quarters as well - as they are in certain City-States.

Example:
bribe jailer 10
The allanaki guard slams your head into the door and says in Sirihish, "Stop wasting my time you scum"

bribe jailer 200
The allanaki guard looks around and then silently opens the gate to let you out. (success)

bribe jailer 200
The allanaki guard pockets your coin, but falls silent as a hooded blue-cloaked templar passes by. (fail)

bribe jailer 200
The allanaki guard just ignores you. (partial fail).

[chrisdcoulombe]

Wanted and Jail sentences are too long as it is.  There are not enough viable ways to bail out when there are no pc templarate or Aod Sergeants on.  There are ways to break in and out of jail, but probably aren't an option to those without the allies or the skills to do so.  I think the wanted or not wanted is really extreme as well. It would be cool if there were different levels of wanted.  Like certain guards recognize you or they roll for a chance they might recognize you, instead of five half-giant soldiers swarming you from across the city.    It seems like there are alot more guards than there used to be as well.  There is no prison society now, but there could be.  I am indifferent to it.  If it was implemented it could be fun, but I don't know that it is necessary.

[RogueGunslinger]

Prison for long-term stay really don't jive with my sense of the world. It could be fun, but I can't see it realistically happening within the established setting.

[Barzalene]

Wouldn't they ship you to the mines?

[Bogre]

Yeah, a prison camp or mine-location would be so much more playable than jails.

[Barzalene]

And more Zalanthans. Why waste water or food on criminals?

[Fujikoma]

Snarling, a scarred, massive obsidian-plated guard says, in asshole-accented sirihish:
    "You'll keep swingin' that glasshacker until I say stop, or ya die, whichever comes first!"

A scarred, massive, obsidian-plated guard cracks a bloodied terrifying obsidian-tipped whip with a wicked grin.

[Molten Heart]

And more Zalanthans. Why waste water or food on criminals?

Some jobs are just too risky and dangerous for slaves to do.  Like mining obsidian, warming up gladiators, feeding the poor (erdlu delight, it's made of people!)

[Barzalene]

And more Zalanthans. Why waste water or food on criminals?

Some jobs are just too risky and dangerous for slaves to do.  Like mining obsidian, warming up gladiators, feeding the poor (erdlu delight, it's made of people!)

Exactly. Makes more sense than letting the laze about the jas betting on the races

[James de Monet]

Wanted and Jail sentences are too long as it is.

What makes you say this?  There are plenty of ways to get un-wanted (turning yourself in to NPCs, or contacting a Templar being two of the obvious ones). And jail sentences differ in length depending upon the crime committed. So, if you're shanking people in broad daylight...yeah, you should probably expect to do some hard time. I need more frame of reference to make me not disagree with this. What would you prefer to see happen when you're committing serious crimes and getting caught?

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah I'd say the jail times strike a good balance. Personally though I'd be for making them longer if it was acceptable that players could log out and still do their time.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I don't know

Wanted and Jail sentences are too long as it is.

What makes you say this?  There are plenty of ways to get un-wanted (turning yourself in to NPCs, or contacting a Templar being two of the obvious ones). And jail sentences differ in length depending upon the crime committed. So, if you're shanking people in broad daylight...yeah, you should probably expect to do some hard time. I need more frame of reference to make me not disagree with this. What would you prefer to see happen when you're committing serious crimes and getting caught?

Yeah I'd say the jail times strike a good balance. Personally though I'd be for making them longer if it was acceptable that players could log out and still do their time.

Pick someone's pocket and get caught with no Templar or sergeant on you go to jail for an hour ooc logged in.  You have to be logged in and doing nothing. 

There is a glitch where if you light a torch they come in and subdue you.  Its a game and you shouldn't be OOC punished for something your Character did.  What balance?  Its a game.  Its boring to idle for an hour.  I just clean when my characters go to jail.   If I'm lucky I catch it when someone is letting me out and have a chance to rp.  If not it just lets me out on time and an npc carries me back to the gates.   Same if you are wanted it takes at least an hour ooc to be able to move out of your hiding spot.  I don't know what you mean by looking like an npc, but changing clothes doesn't work.  Now I guess I agree that the jail sentences could be longer if they passed when you logged, however I still think that is an ooc punishment for an ic thing.

What is unbalanced is one pickpocket in a huge city gets swarmed by 8 soldiers when they get caught attempting to steal some petty cash or a trinket.   It seems like an over the top reaction.   I still thing there are too many soldiers.  Way too many soldiers. 

I do understand why the Jail sentence time is the length it is. It needs to be long enough for the Templar/AOD sergeant to come kill you or release you.  It still doesn't change my position because far less time should be sufficient.

[Barzalene]

Tangentially, it would be nice if everyone in the AOD of sufficient rank got message when someone had been jailed. Yes, it stretches realism. But it would improve gameplay.

[ShaLeah]

Tangentially, it would be nice if everyone in the AOD of sufficient rank got message when someone had been jailed. Yes, it stretches realism. But it would improve gameplay.

I don't think it stretches realism, MAGICKS stretch realism, anything say Corporal and above being informed of a nicker/murderer wouldn't be stretching realism, it's called a chain of command. Someone has to be informed. Someone -should- be able to deal with the criminals at all times and while the virtual world -does- take care of them, it's not like you can take note of noteworthy criminals if they're filtering in and out while no one non-virtual is around.

[MeTekillot]

There are probably at least a few dozen thousand soldiers in each city. I don't think the, what, 50 non virtual soldiers who respond to crimes is excessive.

[chrisdcoulombe]

There are probably at least a few dozen thousand soldiers in each city. I don't think the, what, 50 non virtual soldiers who respond to crimes is excessive.

Probably so, but them being on you and knowing exactly who the criminal is and having them subdued in the blink of an eye is excessive. 

[RogueGunslinger]

If you think spending an hour in jail for pick pocketing is excessive I really just don't know what to say. It's not an ooc punishment for an ic action. It's an occ opportunity for roleplay for your IC mistake of getting caught. I'm sorry that you idle and go do other things while in jail, but I find it's a good time to get in and think "what would my character be doing right now?" and then do that.


What exactly do you think should happen when you go to jail in the game? What do you think would be both realistic and playable?

[TheBadSeed]

There are probably at least a few dozen thousand soldiers in each city. I don't think the, what, 50 non virtual soldiers who respond to crimes is excessive.

Probably so, but them being on you and knowing exactly who the criminal is and having them subdued in the blink of an eye is excessive. 

Real life police are pretty good at apprehending criminals quickly with the use of radios, cell phones, etc. Zalanthas is a world with the unseen way. I imagine word of description and location can spread pretty quickly.

[Potaje]

It would be cool to be able to bride the soldier dragging you to the cells to let you go and more realistic than once being in the cells. So much more to go through to get out from where they are.

Of coarse then you need a level of what is bribable and what is not. Like levels of murder and theft.

Low level commoners
Commoners
Greater house
Soldier
noble house
Noble
Templar
Highlord himself

[MeTekillot]

There are probably at least a few dozen thousand soldiers in each city. I don't think the, what, 50 non virtual soldiers who respond to crimes is excessive.

Probably so, but them being on you and knowing exactly who the criminal is and having them subdued in the blink of an eye is excessive. 

Real life police are pretty good at apprehending criminals quickly with the use of radios, cell phones, etc. Zalanthas is a world with the unseen way. I imagine word of description and location can spread pretty quickly.

You fuckin' know those asshole twink soldiers tell other soldiers your sdesc via the way instead of describing you. They don't even emote in combat or when they try to subdue you. I bet they have triggers set up. You see how they always say the same things when they do stuff?

[James de Monet]

I really have to disagree with you, Chris.  In a brutal society where they still have Arena Games and Templars hold all the power, you think it's an OOC punishment to be in jail for an RL hour for pickpocketing?  I would have to say the complete opposite.  ICly, you're lucky they don't chop off your hand for stealing.  They did that in the real world, in societies less harsh than Zalanthan ones.  One coin, whack.  No more dual wield, no more shield use.

And an RL hour?  That's less than an IC day.  One day, for getting caught stealing?  I'd take that over losing a hand.  One RL hour is an OOC mercy.  The jail times are so unrealistically short BECAUSE a lot of people hate being stuck in jail.

As to getting mobbed by eight soldiers anytime you get caught committing a crime, well...I suppose I would have to say that while I agree that the game may be unrealistically zealous when it comes to arresting criminals, it is also unrealistically FORGIVING of past crimes.  Those NPC guards don't remember arresting you yesterday for the same crime, and decide to decorate your face because of it.  If they fail to find you before your wanted flag expires, you are in no danger of one of them looking at you funny and going "Wait a minute...".  This is a two way street.  I hate to be harsh, but I really feel if you can't hack the jail times, don't play a criminal.  Lowering the jail times is just going to make being a bad criminal stupidly forgiving.  It shouldn't be.  Getting caught and being on the inside for a while is part of those character's lives.  Live it, love it, or maybe choose to play something else.  *shrug*


Edited to add: Oh, sorry, by "turning yourself in to NPCs" I didn't mean make yourself into an NPC, I meant turn yourself in, ie surrender.  If you're wanted, one way to get UN-wanted is to go get arrested.  Sure, it means you go to jail, but sometimes that's more fun than hiding out until the flag passes.

[RogueGunslinger]

The things I mean to say, James de Monet says better.

[James de Monet]

The things I mean to say, James de Monet says better.

<3 you too, RGS   

[chrisdcoulombe]

Edited to add: Oh, sorry, by "turning yourself in to NPCs" I didn't mean make yourself into an NPC, I meant turn yourself in, ie surrender.
LoL I took that wrong.  Haha

I would rather the punishment be harsher and have a chance to get away.  Right now the only real way is to flee and turn nosave arrest back on over and over.

I'm even fine with that.  Its too many guards still.  Being a criminal shouldn't be easy that is not what I am saying.  I am saying having to be logged in an ooc hour to wait for your characters sentence to be up is ooc punishment.   How is it not?   Why not put people in jail so long that they store their characters?  That would be a pretty harsh punishment. Things are already swayed very heavily in favor of the law.  I have played both sides of the coin.  If you are active there is plenty of time to get to the jail if you need to.  You could be there in 2-3 minutes.  Its not about being realistic its about being fun.  

Arm isn't realistic anyway.  If it was it would be really boring.  Its a low fantasy Rpg.  What is your actual motivation for keeping players characters locked in a room where they can't interact with all of the rest of the population?  How does that make the game more fun for you or the rest of the players?  How does it actually effect you?

[chrisdcoulombe]

There are probably at least a few dozen thousand soldiers in each city. I don't think the, what, 50 non virtual soldiers who respond to crimes is excessive.

Probably so, but them being on you and knowing exactly who the criminal is and having them subdued in the blink of an eye is excessive. 

Real life police are pretty good at apprehending criminals quickly with the use of radios, cell phones, etc. Zalanthas is a world with the unseen way. I imagine word of description and location can spread pretty quickly.

Real life police are incompetent. 

[MeTekillot]

i, for one, agree with chrisd. five minute jail sentences for everyone. ten minutes if it's murder.

Is that the point you're trying to make? What are you arguing in favor of, exactly?

[chrisdcoulombe]

It would be cool to be able to bride the soldier dragging you to the cells to let you go and more realistic than once being in the cells. So much more to go through to get out from where they are.

Of coarse then you need a level of what is bribable and what is not. Like levels of murder and theft.

Low level commoners
Commoners
Greater house
Soldier
noble house
Noble
Templar
Highlord himself

That is a cool idea.  It would be an interesting system.

[MeTekillot]

Samos the salter never goes to jail! Hahaha!

[chrisdcoulombe]

 

[RogueGunslinger]

I've had excellent experiences in the jails. All widely different and from both sides. I've also been stuck in them alone, bored. I would not give up the former to get rid of the latter.

[Case]

I have had some extraordinary fun in prison situations. If anything, sentences are far too short, short enough to abuse anyway.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I've had excellent experiences in the jails. All widely different and from both sides. I've also been stuck in them alone, bored. I would not give up the former to get rid of the latter.

I agree with you the climax is what jail scenes are all about.  Its tense for both sides because you could have to kill.   I'm not saying a trade.  Either the players are on or they aren't.  These scenes are possible or they are not.  It takes the players to make that scene or immortal animation is another possible outcome.  Being in there longer just makes the players on the militia end take their time. 10 minutes for stealing and 20 minutes for murder of commoners. This would not take the majority of those scenes away.   Or On a sliding scale.  Like Potaje brought up.  Not that my scale is accurate in all ways, but different punishment could be different depending on the severity of the crime.

                                          Theft/Murder
Low level commoners  5/10
Commoners                   5/10
Greater house                10/20
Soldier                             20/30
noble house                    30/till player or imm release or death
Noble                                35/till player or imm release or death
Templar                           Till release or death
Highlord himself             Death


Also addressing  how easy it is to be caught.   I already said it would be fine if hard coded crime didn't result in 8 soldiers jumping on you immediately in a crowded bazaar.   I don't think it adds to the game.  I think it takes away from it.  If you aren't playing one of the non-stealth classes then there is pretty much no getting away unless you dive into a tent or an apartment.   It has to be fast though.   Its not a problem with me if I choose to play one of my characters as a pickpocket, murderer, assassin, burglar or just a thug.  Those are conflict characters and add spice to the game.  Its supposed to be harsh, yes.  That is why I propose less guards out and about in the city, but when you do get caught lets increase the chances of getting thrown in the spike pit or put in the arena.  Or maybe in Tuluk you are let free to be dealt with discretely.   

[X-D]

I know this is a derail, but seeing the "highlord himself" part just tickles me.

After all, if you read up on the histories, what is the tried and true method of becoming the highlord himself? 

[racurtne]

If something like this were implemented, I seriously doubt attacking/killing soldiers would merit less of a penalty than noble house employees. They seem about on the same level, except you have to take into account that fellow soldiers and their Templarate employers would probably be even less lenient on someone attacking/stealing from one of their own.

Just my opinion on it.

[RogueGunslinger]

Meh. I honestly wouldn't' be opposed to lowering jail times. I could live with that.

[musashi]

FWIW Templar players are alerted that someone is in the jails. When they first log in, and when someone in the jail cells logs in, and when someone is first tossed in. So actually, shorter jail times would result in fewer scenes given that the system is designed to snag people's attention at log in.

If you've been sitting in the jail cell for 30 minutes and THEN a Templar comes in to see you, it's not because the militia characters were taking their sweet time. It's because the Templar just logged in, got notified, and hurried as fast as they could to come give you a scene.

[Twilight]

Remember to add ten minutes to Tuluk jail times, just to give the templar time enough to get through the city vs Allanak.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Yeah Its kinda looking like there are positives and negatives to both sides of the coin.  I agree my list that I copied isn't right either.  Was just an arbitrary example.  It may be overly complicated and too much work for a not very big benefit. 

[sebonner]

Back when I played in 2005 with any bit of regularity, I found jail scenes to always be really fun -- but the caveat here is that almost all of my jail scenes were initiated by other PCs with a particular purpose.  (I.e, capturing my fugitive character, torture, etc)

When I was a newer player, I made a few mistakes (particularly involving a run-in with not understanding the brawl code) and tried to play a few nefarious types.  It ended horrifically fast.  In fact, it ended so quickly that the time between when I entered the command to break a law and the time to when I either saw the Mantis (before discovering nosave) OR were half-way to jail was so short that I didn't have the real-life reflexes to even respond to it.  The spam of the ten guards appearing and subduing my characters had scrolled off the screen before I actually comprehended what had happened.

My personal opinion was that THAT was excessive.  There is NO opportunity for escape, which I think may be the primary complaint here.

One the one hand, I appreciate these mechanics because I'm certain that they prevent players from doing idiotic things like trying to PK people in broad daylight in a crowded market in the midsts of a long, drawn-out fight.  On the other, I think it also discourages other forms of perfectly legitimate IC interaction because there's no give.

I think an appropriate -variable- delay in response would be most welcome.  Committing crimes in the day in the market or a full tavern will have a much shorter response than doing it in the streets in the dead of night.  Noble or ritzy regions are prioritized over the commons.  Guards should not be immune to hide/sneak (if they are already).  Allow people to bribe guards PRIOR to a crime.  Allow them to bribe guards once in jail.  Have longer WANTED times and jail time to compensate.

Just some ideas pitched out there.

[Inks]

What you are after already exists in game. In terms of the night thing.

[musashi]

Bribing people prior to a crime or while in jail is also totally viable. Militia PC's don't get paid much as I understand it