A world without sexism confuses and angers me.

[Tenebrous Radiance]

Ok. Now I HAVE TO make my next PC a cross dresser. Bearded and more comfortable in lace than leather.

Kojiro Fale wore high heels. That was circa 2001.

[Akaramu]

I don't feel gender discriminated in RL, and wouldn't mind some of it IG, at least in some limited areas / clans of the Known. But I see and accept why the game doesn't work that way, and things are as they are.

[Maso]

LauraMars can't possibly have mastered search fu...cause she's a woman.

[Sanvean]

I just want to say that the title of this thread continues to delight me, for some reason.

I really like what LoD said:

The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

Yes. That. To bring up entirely anecdotal evidence, I've had a number of women tell me that this aspect of the world drew them to Armageddon or else kept them there. Making the game welcoming to female players has definitely shaped the game and it's also helped build a really strong community, as these boards often evidence. (I've had very few, if any, male players tell me it drove them away.)

A lot of us have horror stories about other games. I've got my share as well. I've read iterations of this thread over and over through the years, and I still think it was a great move for the game.

[LauraMars]

LauraMars can't possibly have mastered search fu...cause she's a woman.

[Case]

girls are icky and would just cry about zalanthas all the time

[Fredd]

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

[Lizzie]

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

[Fredd]

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

I don't see an alternative to breastfeeding in zalanthas. There is no "powdred milk" Baby's need what's in the mothers milk to survive, not to mention to get there immune system (we have shots these days) and I am fairly certain 80% of zalanthians can't afford to pay a wet nurse.

[ShaLeah]

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

I don't see an alternative to breastfeeding in zalanthas. There is no "powdred milk" Baby's need what's in the mothers milk to survive, not to mention to get there immune system (we have shots these days) and I am fairly certain 80% of zalanthians can't afford to pay a wet nurse.

There are alternatives to breasfeeding in Zalanthas. Find out IC.

[greasygemo]

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

In Example: I played a leader pc, and I had a pregnant pc in the clan. I would not let the pregnant pc go out on anything considered dangerous. Not because she was weak, but because my leader respected life to much to risk an unborn child's life in combat. During that time the female was in charge of cleaning,cooking, and so on though. "Womens work" in RL, but in the game it was because " Everyone pulls there weight, even the pregnant"

Walking through some city's you will notice that it is mostly women npc's doing the sewing or cooking or cleaning. Why? my guess is while a child is still really young, someone has to keep an eye on them. And due to the child growing in the mothers body for 9 months, she feels a closer connection. (This is scientifically proven, btw) Sexism? I don't think so.

Then there's the practical point of breastfeeding - whether a wetnurse or mommy, the primary food source of an infant is going to be a female. Yes, I know men -can- lactate. But in general, they don't. And in general, they don't produce enough to provide complete nourishment for an infant of their own species.

I don't see an alternative to breastfeeding in zalanthas. There is no "powdred milk" Baby's need what's in the mothers milk to survive, not to mention to get there immune system (we have shots these days) and I am fairly certain 80% of zalanthians can't afford to pay a wet nurse.

There are alternatives to breasfeeding in Zalanthas. Find out IC.

I feel like perhaps I do not want too know xD

[Bluefae]

Fredd:

First off, welcome back!

Second:

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

Ah, if only it were so.  I have been playing a female warrior before, and been told IC that she "Acted like a man".  On two separate occasions.  The comment didn't come from a newbie, but an otherwise very well-played character (the warrior-woman was crude, ignorant, and did such shocking things as spit on the floor and engage in off-color humor).  I decided to handle it IC, and hopefully got my point across in both instances (and yes, further dialog made it clear that the aforementioned characteristics were, indeed, the "problem").

Sexism, like all the other nasty RL "-isms", can be very difficulty to check at the door, and exchanged instead for mage-hating and elf-baiting.  Where the staff excels, though, is in having created a backdrop where that's the expectation.  And mostly, the player-base does a hell of a job maintaining it. 

     

[Lizzie]

I just want to say that the title of this thread continues to delight me, for some reason.

I really like what LoD said:

The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

Yes. That. To bring up entirely anecdotal evidence, I've had a number of women tell me that this aspect of the world drew them to Armageddon or else kept them there. Making the game welcoming to female players has definitely shaped the game and it's also helped build a really strong community, as these boards often evidence. (I've had very few, if any, male players tell me it drove them away.)

A lot of us have horror stories about other games. I've got my share as well. I've read iterations of this thread over and over through the years, and I still think it was a great move for the game.

This is how I see the "issue" of "sexism" as well, and I'm glad that Sanvean has posted to express it.

As I've said before - men and women -are- different. Treated equally in Zalanthas, but -not- the same. Equal is not synonymous with same.

However - as long as people continue playing female characters who use their "sexual wiles" to get ahead, male characters who use the "hero card" as their method of getting ahead, there will be a decisive seperation of masculinity and femininity in the game. I don't see a problem with that, as long as people recognize that this is what it is. Players WANT females to be portrayed as "flirtatious and feminine," and they WANT males to be portrayed as "rogueish and masculine." If they didn't want this, they wouldn't continue to do it.

Edited to add a classic example: the ubiquitous leg-crossing at the bar. Decisively feminine, and not surprisingly - performed almost exclusively by female characters, OR "effeminate" male characters. You will rarely, if ever, see this:

>The burly barrel-chested man gracefully drapes one leg over the other, exposing a well-curved thigh.

Just like you will rarely see this:

>The zaftig, curvaceous young woman cops a squat outside the tavern and pisses on the side of the road.

I accept this, though I don't particularly care for the stereotype. But it does exist, and because it does exist, we need to deal with it IG. It isn't against the rules for a female PC to behave "feminine and flirty." So why should it be against the rules for us to acknowledge, ICly, those behaviors as what they are? That makes no sense to me. What should we call those behaviors, if not what they are, considering that they are being portrayed that way intentionally by their players?

[Marauder Moe]

While I agree in general, Lizzie, both of your examples have anatomical components that make them less feasible.   

[flurry]

It's perhaps unavoidable that female characters will, on average, behave in a more feminine manner than male characters, on average. But you can still acknowledge that behavior without having a character describe it in gender-based terms. There are plenty of other words.

[Wug]

Fredd:

First off, welcome back!

Second:

Sexism exists only because you see it as Sexism.

Ah, if only it were so.  I have been playing a female warrior before, and been told IC that she "Acted like a man".  On two separate occasions.  The comment didn't come from a newbie, but an otherwise very well-played character (the warrior-woman was crude, ignorant, and did such shocking things as spit on the floor and engage in off-color humor).  I decided to handle it IC, and hopefully got my point across in both instances (and yes, further dialog made it clear that the aforementioned characteristics were, indeed, the "problem").

Sexism, like all the other nasty RL "-isms", can be very difficulty to check at the door, and exchanged instead for mage-hating and elf-baiting.  Where the staff excels, though, is in having created a backdrop where that's the expectation.  And mostly, the player-base does a hell of a job maintaining it. 

     

Please send in player complaints about these instances in the future.

[Lizzie]

It's perhaps unavoidable that female characters will, on average, behave in a more feminine manner than male characters, on average. But you can still acknowledge that behavior without having a character describe it in gender-based terms. There are plenty of other words.

Why should anyone have to? Masculine and feminine are perfectly good words.

[Is Friday]

I tend to experience sexism against my PC when I'm playing males more often than females.

[Bast]

I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
      Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

[Lizzie]

I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
      Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

I agree, but my thought is, I should be able to CALL your character a girlie-girl, if that's how you are trying to portray her. I should be able to say "isn't she precious.." right before she backstabs me - without getting a player complaint turned my way for inflicting "sexism" on you. What some people are claiming, is that we shouldn't be -allowed- to say "this person is acting like a common woman" or "that person is acting like a typical male." A person who grabs their crotch as a lewd gesture IS demonstrating a male behavior. There's no reason why we should have to call it anything else. It'd be great if we came up with other things to call it, but I resent being told I'm not allowed to call a spade a spade.

[Bast]

I have alway liked the equal but different the same things make or brains genetically male and female (not our bodies because their is a difference) effect our hormones which in turn effect our behavior. It is not some learned thing. One of my Dads grad students is doing a really interesting study atm on the effects of hormones on developing brains and how that in turn effects behavior. It a neat read so far. Mainly because it is not specific to humans or even mammals.
      Masculine and Feminine behavior is not something human culture made it up it is a product of the chemical soup created by our brains. Our culture has developed different ways to display that behavior but I do not feel I am falling into a stero-type because i chose to have my PC cross her legs when she sits at a bar. There is a difference in sexism and acting feminine or masculine. I should be able to play a girlie girl who can still kick your butt in the sparing ring then flounce off for tea and crumpets if I want to and not be judged for it. Thats sexist too  

For added clarification my father is a scientist with SCDNR he runs the Genomics dept and has double PHD in (what is now called) Genomics and Marine Bio. He also seats a chair at S.C. medical university MUSC. Leads to some really interesting people at his Christmas parties, however I digress.

I agree, but my thought is, I should be able to CALL your character a girlie-girl, if that's how you are trying to portray her. I should be able to say "isn't she precious.." right before she backstabs me - without getting a player complaint turned my way for inflicting "sexism" on you. What some people are claiming, is that we shouldn't be -allowed- to say "this person is acting like a common woman" or "that person is acting like a typical male." A person who grabs their crotch as a lewd gesture IS demonstrating a male behavior. There's no reason why we should have to call it anything else. It'd be great if we came up with other things to call it, but I resent being told I'm not allowed to call a spade a spade.

Oh well thats just silly. I can see in some cases where that would be a no no...however if that was the case shouldn't I file a player compliant every time someone calls me a bitch (which bugs anyway because I do not feel bitch is word that would be used in arm with lack of female dogs and the fact that I never seen a single female animal referred to in the game as a bitch) or a Cunt? I have had female chars called a Cunt quiet a few times.  I normally just make a mental note that I am better rper than they are because I think up more Arm fitting insults and go on my merry way 

[Is Friday]

I think cunt is a great word to use.

But you'll never find me using: shaft, thrust, ecstasy, baby, pregnant belly, or sing. I just make a mental note of those who do and think to myself how much of a better RPer I am, then go about doing more Zalanthan things like choppin up mothafuckas with bone swordz.

[flurry]

It's perhaps unavoidable that female characters will, on average, behave in a more feminine manner than male characters, on average. But you can still acknowledge that behavior without having a character describe it in gender-based terms. There are plenty of other words.

Why should anyone have to? Masculine and feminine are perfectly good words.

They are indeed perfectly good words, apt in certain contexts, but ill-suited for describing Zalanthan behavior (in my opinion).

(By the way, I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to use those words. Just giving my interpretation of what I think makes sense.)

[thatkid]

I think cunt is a great word to use.

But you'll never find me using: shaft, thrust, ecstasy, baby, pregnant belly, or sing. I just make a mental note of those who do and think to myself how much of a better RPer I am, then go about doing more Zalanthan things like choppin up mothafuckas with bone swordz.

I use four out of five of those words whenever I play a character who can craft arrows.
How are arrows not Zalanthan?

[Is Friday]

Go read a book, Rookjob.