Never met you, but, you are sexy.

[brytta.leofa]

What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?

Nope.  You "see" whatever you contact him as.

> contact figure  (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.

> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.

[Synthesis]

What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?

Nope.  You "see" whatever you contact him as.

> contact figure  (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.

> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.

Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.

So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.

[Kismetic]

picard.jpg

[kayza]

What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?

Nope.  You "see" whatever you contact him as.

> contact figure  (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.

> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.

Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.

So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.

That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way.  As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood.  Don't like.

I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.

[Synthesis]

What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?

Nope.  You "see" whatever you contact him as.

> contact figure  (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.

> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.

Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.

So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.

That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way.  As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood.  Don't like.

I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.

Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.

Intelligent parsing solves the recruiter-contact problem (you'll know his name by the board post).  It solves the remote-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information merely by knowing a name).  It solves the near-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information by contacting a figure).

It's not a cloaking device.  It leaves you with exactly the amount of information you started with.  The only way you could gain additional information is if the target psi back to you.

It doesn't solve the problem of delivering exact sdesc keywords verbally, but at this point, that's probably a problem dealt with best by telling players to knock it off, not by code.

However, one potential problem with intelligent parsing is what the parser will do in cases where the PC has a nickname or true name keyword that is the same as one of their (or other folks') sdesc keywords.  So, for example...if your nickname is "Eyes," the parser could shit the bed on folks with reverse sdescs like "the man with blue eyes."

[kayza]

What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?

Nope.  You "see" whatever you contact him as.

> contact figure  (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.

> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.

Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.

So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.

That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way.  As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood.  Don't like.

I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.

Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.

Intelligent parsing solves the recruiter-contact problem (you'll know his name by the board post).  It solves the remote-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information merely by knowing a name).  It solves the near-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information by contacting a figure).

It's not a cloaking device.  It leaves you with exactly the amount of information you started with.

You and many others are arguing that there are flaws in the current system.  And I agree, but I think the solutions cause more severe problems. 

As another mentioned out..
the ultimate goal seems to allow people to be able to not be identified easier
I don't think that needs to be done.

Any system you make to try to limit sdesc importance will do that.

Do you really think allowing people to be more anonymous is going to benefit anything?

[Synthesis]

What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?

Nope.  You "see" whatever you contact him as.

> contact figure  (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.

> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.

Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.

So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.

That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way.  As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood.  Don't like.

I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.

Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.

Intelligent parsing solves the recruiter-contact problem (you'll know his name by the board post).  It solves the remote-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information merely by knowing a name).  It solves the near-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information by contacting a figure).

It's not a cloaking device.  It leaves you with exactly the amount of information you started with.

Do you really think allowing people to be more anonymous is going to benefit anything?

Yes.  Absolutely.  100%.  That's been the entire point, from the very first post.  It's not some hidden agenda.

[Kismetic]

Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.

Except, when you establish the mental link, you are supposed to glean that information.  A rough image of the other end of your contact.  You should be able to contact figure and make a basic outline.

You shouldn't be able to contact someone, and drop the link anonymously.  I do think that people would be territorial with their mindspace, and would have developed the awareness to defend it, if necessary.

If you replaced every instance of "a foreign presence" with someone's sdesc, it allows you to know who is entering and leaving your mind.  It eliminates the most dastardly abuses of the Way, and makes juggling psionics a little easier.

It might even create roleplay.  That dude who's been jumping in and out of your mind all week?  Way him up, and ask him what's the deal.  Hooded at the bar, and the guy across the room tickles your noggin?  Go intimidate his ass.

It doesn't seem necessary to make complex changes, or reinvent the wheel, when the only problem for anyone is that there is potential for anonymity to encourage bad behaviour.  If you want to get a mental impression of someone via the Way, force them to COMMUNICATE.  This is a concept with which we're already familiar.

Anyway, fix the problem rather than creating new ones.  That is all.

[Synthesis]

Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.

Except, when you establish the mental link, you are supposed to glean that information.  A rough image of the other end of your contact.  You should be able to contact figure and make a basic outline.

You shouldn't be able to contact someone, and drop the link anonymously.  I do think that people would be territorial with their mindspace, and would have developed the awareness to defend it, if necessary.

If you replaced every instance of "a foreign presence" with someone's sdesc, it allows you to know who is entering and leaving your mind.  It eliminates the most dastardly abuses of the Way, and makes juggling psionics a little easier.

It might even create roleplay.  That dude who's been jumping in and out of your mind all week?  Way him up, and ask him what's the deal.  Hooded at the bar, and the guy across the room tickles your noggin?  Go intimidate his ass.

It doesn't seem necessary to make complex changes, or reinvent the wheel, when the only problem for anyone is that there is potential for anonymity to encourage bad behaviour.  If you want to get a mental impression of someone via the Way, force them to COMMUNICATE.  This is a concept with which we're already familiar.

Anyway, fix the problem rather than creating new ones.  That is all.

The question of whether you ought to be able to get someone's sdesc merely by contacting them is a question of gameplay, not of IC mechanics.  That is, would the game be better if you were no longer able to do so?

I think unquestionably the game would be better for spies, thieves, assassins, and various other rogues.  And...isn't that kind of what the game is all about?  Murder, corruption, betrayal?  Remember all that jazz?

As it currently stands, the second you betray someone, anyone in the entire Known World who bothers to look up your name will be able to know exactly who you are, and be able to immediately pick you out of a crowd of potentially thousands of people.  If that doesn't strike you as at least moderately stupid, I suppose there's no convincing you at all.

[Kismetic]

Hey, man, I'm of the mindset that the Way should not exist.  The game would be that much deeper, imho.  But while we're chained to it, let's keep it simple, silly.  Root out the problem, and derp de derp, the rest is what it is.

On another note, there should be simple (read:  elegant) functionality added to the barrier skill that benefits shady characters, somehow.  Start a thread!

[Maker]

Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?  First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?  I mean, is there pre-Armag  Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?  I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way.  So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?

[Synthesis]

Hey, man, I'm of the mindset that the Way should not exist.  The game would be that much deeper, imho.  But while we're chained to it, let's keep it simple, silly.  Root out the problem, and derp de derp, the rest is what it is.

Wait. WAIT A MINUTE.

You're complaining about intelligent parsing, because you're supposed to gain sdesc information by contact.

WHAT THE HELL IS ALL THIS THEN?

I've suggested this before, and it's really rather simple if you eliminate the contact message.  Then, just like any wireless, magickal head conversation, you have to make sure you've got the right target.

Code Select Expand


cont Amos
You contact a foreign presence.

psi Oh, hey, is this Amos?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscular man:
"Oh, hey, is this Amos?"


Neither party knows who is who until a single message is breached, eliminating all silliness for good.  Because, I mean, who is going to psi "Hey, just gettin' ur sdesc, bro.  Carry on"??

Alternatively, you can just change "A foreign presence contacts your mind" to "(sdesc) contacts your mind."  Clearly, the problem is that psionics affords the initiator a level of unnecessary anonymity.

Apparently, you've been stricken with Romnesia.

[Nyr]

Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44616.msg721336.html#msg721336 -- covered here if you need it

First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?

No.

I mean, is there pre-Armag  Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?

Yes.

I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way.  So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?

Not really.  If it bothers you, consider it an OOC construct.  If that bothers you, consider it an IC thing.  If both things bother you, you'll have to accept that it's as good as it can be considering existing code, and pick one.

[brytta.leofa]

It doesn't solve the problem of delivering exact sdesc keywords verbally, but at this point, that's probably a problem dealt with best by telling players to knock it off, not by code.

(Though I also advocate: only allowing contact by sdesc keywords that are visible to you right now because the dude is in the same room not wearing a hood.  If he's wearing a hood and in the same room, you can "contact hooded.")

(And removing "true name" as a keyword.)

(So you would never ever contact someone you'd not encountered in person.)

[Kalai]

I'm pretty sure there's evidence for a default image but I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post.  

[Kismetic]

Apparently, you've been stricken with Romnesia.

No, I think our views are just different, Mr. President.  I would prefer to change one nuance of the Way in a way that I believe would proliferate and enrich roleplay.  You are seeking an entire overhaul of the way we, as a canon, perceive the Unseen Way (what an ironic title).  Both of our opinions no doubt stem from frustration with the system, but I've termed my own less invasive (more irony).

[Synthesis]

Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44616.msg721336.html#msg721336 -- covered here if you need it

First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?

No.

I mean, is there pre-Armag  Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?

Yes.

I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way.  So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?

Not really.  If it bothers you, consider it an OOC construct.  If that bothers you, consider it an IC thing.  If both things bother you, you'll have to accept that it's as good as it can be considering existing code, and pick one.

Unless I'm missing something, that linked post only says you should be able to contact anyone, not that you should be able to gain new information merely by establishing a connection.  It seems like you're also admitting that sdesc-sniffing isn't an ideal situation.

[Nyr]

Unless I'm missing something, that linked post only says you should be able to contact anyone, not that you should be able to gain new information merely by establishing a connection.

It's a bit much to expect every helpfile and every bit of documentation to explain every possible situation for every player.  However, it really seems at this point that the argument about this has become pedantic, and it is beginning to become annoying.

It seems like you're also admitting that sdesc-sniffing isn't an ideal situation.

Correct--nor is it the end of the world.

[kayza]

I think unquestionably the game would be better for spies, thieves, assassins, and various other rogues.  And...isn't that kind of what the game is all about?  Murder, corruption, betrayal?  Remember all that jazz?

As it currently stands, the second you betray someone, anyone in the entire Known World who bothers to look up your name will be able to know exactly who you are, and be able to immediately pick you out of a crowd of potentially thousands of people.  If that doesn't strike you as at least moderately stupid, I suppose there's no convincing you at all.

On thieves types - There are two types really, Ones that are obvious and ones that aren't.
1.  The current system makes it hard to be the non-obvious thief.  Which it should since having too many of those mild  mannered merchant and master assassin a night concepts limited and difficult.
2. The other is the they are a thief because that is their lot in life and it is obvious they are one.. current system really doesn't affect them much.


On the betray idea..
It does but this is more to do with player base size than sdescs.  I should be able to make new friends even after I betray someone(well maybe)  But I can't because the player base in that location might be small and everyone knows them.  The sdesc situation just helps that along but really it isn't sdescs that are the problem here.

[Kismetic]

To add to the discussion, I think that the opposite shore of this argument -- that people who want to be hooded and difficult to find should not be penalized by the Way, is best answered by increasing the effectiveness of barrier.  Barrier is always getting crushed, and it's so annoying when they do so, and just drop out of your mind.  That is really the easiest fix.

I think if you eliminated foreign presences and gave barrier a reasonable boost, you'd fix the whole argument.  I agree it's not the end of the world, but is there a good argument as to why these things can't be tweaked, or even shouldn't already exist?

[Synthesis]

Apparently, you've been stricken with Romnesia.

No, I think our views are just different, Mr. President.  I would prefer to change one nuance of the Way in a way that I believe would proliferate and enrich roleplay.  You are seeking an entire overhaul of the way we, as a canon, perceive the Unseen Way (what an ironic title).  Both of our opinions no doubt stem from frustration with the system, but I've termed my own less invasive (more irony).

Lol.  I, too, would prefer to change one nuance of the Way in a way that I believe would proliferate and enrich roleplay.  That nuance being the ability to sniff sdescs.  Imagine having to actually *gasp* *horror* interact with other players to figure out who the bad guy is, instead of reading his name on a rumor board and instantly knowing with a quick psionic contact!

I know, I know...it's almost too awful to contemplate.  It would alter gameplay in such radical ways as having to use emotes, talks, and says to get things accomplished!  People would have to start plots! Can you imagine?  It would destroy Armageddon as we know and love it!

[Synthesis]

To add to the discussion, I think that the opposite shore of this argument -- that people who want to be hooded and difficult to find should not be penalized by the Way, is best answered by increasing the effectiveness of barrier.  Barrier is always getting crushed, and it's so annoying when they do so, and just drop out of your mind.  That is really the easiest fix.

I think if you eliminated foreign presences and gave barrier a reasonable boost, you'd fix the whole argument.  I agree it's not the end of the world, but is there a good argument as to why these things can't be tweaked, or even shouldn't already exist?

Okay, that's the second time you've agreed with a proposal I support, while simultaneously purporting to be the con side of the argument.

This is starting to get a little ridiculous.

[Kismetic]

I've not changed my stance on these things from the start, good sir.  I've suggested them in previous threads, galore.  I disagree with your intelligent parsing method, as I think that needlessly changes our perception of the Unseen Way.  If you're not on the 'mental image' ship, you need to climb aboard, sailor.

[Maker]

Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44616.msg721336.html#msg721336 -- covered here if you need it

First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?

No.

I mean, is there pre-Armag  Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?

Yes.

I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way.  So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?

Not really.  If it bothers you, consider it an OOC construct.  If that bothers you, consider it an IC thing.  If both things bother you, you'll have to accept that it's as good as it can be considering existing code, and pick one.

You linked me to a response of yours that addresses how you can contact a person you've never met, but it doesn't address why one should expect to be able to know what said person looks like.   Going by what you linked, it does seem like your saying the code is the way it is and saying that you can "see" someone using psionics is simply justifying the code being the way it is.  Whether it's because no one really feels like messing with it or ignorance as to why it was designed that way...whatever.  I was just trying to sort out why the expectation existed in the first place.  

[Schrodingers Cat]

Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?  First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?  I mean, is there pre-Armag  Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?  I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way.  So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?

I think the idea is that when someone contacts someone else, the sdesc message allows the initiator of the contact to know if the person they have just contacted is their intended target.  I think it's sort of assumed that when someone tries to contact someone else, they at least know enough about that person in order to find that individual among the virtual soup of others in the ether that is The Way.  The argument as I see it is: how much should a person know about someone else before they can accurately find their mind and know it is the intended person.

Morg bought up the idea of personal familiarity and allowing players to determine how players add and recognize keywords between one another which I is pretty cool.  I thought I'd expound on the idea of personal familiarity.

This idea involves all interactions between individuals.  While it may be a little complicated at first, just bear with me.  Imagine a situation where two characters are sitting at the bar talking, some level of familiarity is created between these two.  Because of their interaction the the code somehow records their familiarity and these two people now "know" each other, even if they don't know each other's names (which they might).  These two individuals could now recognize each other just by using contact.  The alternative being that if they had no previous contact, their psionic message contact/psi/etc would be something similar to what Desertman has already proposed.  Basically when someone contacted someone they were unfamiliar with they'd get the message "You contact a foreign mind." (or something similar).  But if for some reason they'd have dealings with this person before and didn't realize it, they'd get their sdesc ("You contact the tall muscular man") and they might think:"Hey, I know this guy!"

It's the sort of code development that could evolve into something much bigger, involving lesser mundane aspects of the game (IE: cool stuff) but it wouldn't have to be too complicated to arbitrate sdesc information dissemination among users of the way.