The T'zai Byn as a Newbie Clan

[Morrolan]

As a Master of Silliest Deaths myself, I feel great respect for byn sergeants who really stick through it and dont lose heart too early.

Hear, hear!

[Reiloth]

I think the T'zai Byn provides a few things: stability, schedule, and consistency.

Stability, in that while there are certainly 'slumps' in activity, such as having relatively few Troopers or Runners, or only one/two active Sergeants, you are more likely to find interaction in the T'zai Byn than not. I've played in the clan where there are 8 off-peak PC's at a given time, or just as many with little overlap at peak. As a new player coming into the game, it may be essential to have this level of interaction, so the game world can be experienced first hand through PC-to-PC conflict/plots/relationships, rather than solo RP. Let's face it -- If you join a clan like House Salarr, or House Borsail, you may go through some indeterminate slump periods. A Family Member/Noble storing or dying (esp. in GMH where there is often a high turnover for sponsored roles) can really take the wind out of the sails for a Clan. Weeks can go by where you only see one PC in your House, etc. For a newbie, I think this can be a death knell. They'll stop logging in, because they don't know how to make fun for themselves yet. They rely on other PC's to show them the way, while they blunder through their first five PC's (though I guess people are getting better at this recently, it took me maybe 5 or 6 before I truly 'got it'). I think the T'zai Byn is a good testing ground in this sense.

Schedule, because while other clans may or may not have a schedule, the Byn invented it. It's hard, it's tried, it's true. If you're caught skipping chores, you get whipped. If you skip more than a few times, you get worse. The idea that there is a strict schedule that everyone in the Company must adhere to helps pull PC's out of their hiding holes and into the same space together, so they can interact, get to know one another, make friends (or enemies) and otherwise incubate plots. Sweeping the Workshop isn't about sweeping the workshop -- Sure, you can toss out a few emotes, pick up a broom, and so on. Instead, it's about the interaction born from being in the same place, at the same time.

Consistency, because even a newbie can become Amos the Terrible, the warrior trained in the Byn. The Byn spars more than any other clan in the game, and it allows even newbies to the combat code to get to a pretty decent level of combat ability, especially if they travel on contracts. Anyone who has trained in the Byn becomes a worthy prospect to other organizations. If a newbie can stick out the rough incredibly non-intuitive MUD syntax/code (say if they are a first time MUDder, which is how it goes now-a-days), get into the theme of the world, get into the idea of the T'zai Byn and being a mercenary, and makes it to Trooper level and graduates -- They're almost guaranteed a job with a GMH or a noble house. At this point, they will have (hopefully) seen the world over, killed some Gith, nearly been eaten by spiders, sweated out a storm in the Fort, amongst other activities, and really gotten in character. Now they can work for Salarr or Borsail without derping on "how do I stop guarding".

This isn't to say other Clans aren't suited for newbies, they are just not as well suited. A newbie can survive in House Kadius, or Salarr, or Borsail, and I have every iota of confidence in our player base. I think the people who play text based RPI's are incredibly intelligent for the most part, and have great imaginations and reasoning skills. A newbie that tries in earnest to get it, will likely get it. But I think the T'zai Byn is an invaluable resource for newbies, yes.

[hyzhenhok]

Personally, I hate the idea of the Byn being the "newbie" clan.   I think because it's so OOC jarring.

ICly it is there to make money.   ICly it is compiled of thugs and such just this side of of the law, and isn't particularly honorable.  ICly a lot of its contracts and RPTs focus on fighting/dying 1st.  And so it feels pushed to me when I see everything trying to push new PCs (players) into the Byn, hen they run to interact and recruit Bynners into their houses, or when runners are given (or forced into being given because a player is making a true merc PC) a bit of an IC break because they are OOC learning.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should be a clan or way to help ease new players into the game.  And I know players who play in Byn are great about showing PCs the ropes.  But, I just don't think it is good to continue with something that makes little IC sense because of OOC tradition.  

You be wrong, bro. For one reason:

The Byn is the only clan in the game that it ICly & according to the docs makes sense that they would hire unskilled commoners. It makes perfect IC sense that an unskilled commoner with no connections who wants to escape menial labor would join the Byn. And they are the only clan in the game that will literally hire everybody.

It seems to me a much bigger IC break when merchant houses pick up completely unskilled commoners as hunters or soldiers when employees of these Houses are among the wealthiest commoners in the Known and every independent hunter and mercenary would love to be hired by them. Militia I can see grabbing unskilled commoners, but a lot of them probably get drubbed out during training and even then the hiring pool is limited racially/by citizenship. But the elite soldier Noble Houses? Again, probably should not be hiring unskilled. I understand leaders can be desperate for warm bodies so this is something regularly overlooked, but that's something with much stronger ground of IC complaint than unskilled commoners being directed towards the Byn.

The Byn is a good clan for new players but it isn't the only good clan for new players. That said, it isn't the only good clan for new characters, either. Not many clans have official documentation defining how skilled a recruit must be (certainly not any I've been in). Based on what goes on in game, it makes more sense to say that the "recruit" rank of any particular hiring clan is reserved for anyone who hasn't proven themselves capable of achieving the next rank yet. If you're a Byn runner, that usually simply means you've been in for less than a year, haven't been excessively insubordinate, etc.. For other clans, the demands are different. The nature of the recruit/runner rank is that there aren't a lot of prerequisites to enter it, only to move up from it. That doesn't necessarily make other clans less newbie-friendly - they just offer a different environment in which to learn the game, so that a new player who wants to play a mercenary, can play a mercenary - but the new player interested in crafting can play a crafter, the new player interested in playing a rogue can play a rogue, and so on - and still be able to learn the basics of their role by following a leader PC able to offer guidance to the character, and by extension, the newbie.

In practice that is true because most clans always want more people. ICly though, it doesn't make sense to me that so many of these wealthy clans are so willing to completely pay for room & board and apprentice random unskilled commoners. ICly my characters will assume unless you're something special, you will have a hard time convincing a noble or merchant house to hire you. So when an obviously unskilled, unaffiliated commoner asks a character of mine about work, I will always direct them either to menial labor or the Byn.

If they RP having experience hunting or soldiering or thieving (even if it's purely in their character bio) it's another story. Most newbie PCs tend to be blank slates, though.

(Crafters don't really count; they count as "skilled" out of char gen.)

[My 2 sids]

ALL houses employ menial laborers though.  It's still OOC to think that someone would hold House Kadius responsible if some floor-sweeper didn't bow properly.  Or, take offence (might notice, but not take offence) if some cooking-assistant of Fale got into a fight with some stable hand of Tor.  Such is life for nobility who must put up with annoying commoners in general.   *In fact the house docs often back-up just how menial 1st ranking hunters and such are to the house.

I'd even go on to state that having a probational period, hiring a newbie PC, as a cook or armor scrubber or whatever, would be not only totally IC but would help add to the over-all Clan experience for everyone.   Part of what we do is somehow decide that every single clan member is someone's spy or has a hidden agenda -- well, that's just not true. 

[KankWhisperer]

It does present a problem on the reverse end: If you have a clan made up of a lot of newbies and a few seasoned players, guess what happens when you go out on an escort mission? A lot of them die. I think it is where the hesitation at hiring them comes from.

"Hey, wasn't there like... ten of you when we left. I only see four now."
"Ohhh yeah, those guys? They died."
"......"

Having played quite a bit of bynnage, more players die running outside, breaking the law, wanking it in the 'rinth than to contracts by a large margin.

[Reiloth]

ALL houses employ menial laborers though.  It's still OOC to think that someone would hold House Kadius responsible if some floor-sweeper didn't bow properly.  Or, take offence (might notice, but not take offence) if some cooking-assistant of Fale got into a fight with some stable hand of Tor.  Such is life for nobility who must put up with annoying commoners in general.   *In fact the house docs often back-up just how menial 1st ranking hunters and such are to the house.

I'd even go on to state that having a probational period, hiring a newbie PC, as a cook or armor scrubber or whatever, would be not only totally IC but would help add to the over-all Clan experience for everyone.   Part of what we do is somehow decide that every single clan member is someone's spy or has a hidden agenda -- well, that's just not true. 

Yes, but sometimes it is true. Zalanthas is a land of paranoia, and something the Noble Houses and Greater Merchant Houses have that the T'zai Byn decidedly does not is: politics.

[Feco]

I've still not played a Bynner.

[hyzhenhok]

It does present a problem on the reverse end: If you have a clan made up of a lot of newbies and a few seasoned players, guess what happens when you go out on an escort mission? A lot of them die. I think it is where the hesitation at hiring them comes from.

"Hey, wasn't there like... ten of you when we left. I only see four now."
"Ohhh yeah, those guys? They died."
"......"

Having played quite a bit of bynnage, more players die running outside, breaking the law, wanking it in the 'rinth than to contracts by a large margin.

Definitely true. In fact, you're happy when the runner dies in front of the unit because at least you can sell their gear.

The hardest part of being a Byn sergeant isn't recruiting/training. It's networking, schmoozing with other leaders who will give you contracts. Other leaders have to do that for plots too, of course, but not for the day-to-day operation of the clan! Hard stuff.

[My 2 sids]

The hardest part of being a Byn sergeant isn't recruiting/training. It's networking, schmoozing with other leaders who will give you contracts. Other leaders have to do that for plots too, of course, but not for the day-to-day operation of the clan! Hard stuff.

So a Byn sergeant has to network, schmooze, work with the recruits and regulars, go out on contracts.... when do they have the time to actually teach on an OOC level?

[evilcabbage]

The Way is a powerful networking-schmoozing tool, trust me.

[kayza]

You are all making good points on the newbie openness of the Byn.   I always planned to eventually make a Byn character.

My only real problem was the double meaning in calling it a newbie clan.

[evilcabbage]

..... Trust me, you don't fuck with the Byn. They're newbie supportive, that doesn't mean you can assume the players are all n00bs. Some of them Bynners I've seen (a couple years back) could rock some ultra dangerous mobs worlds. Hard.

[Malifaxis]

You are all making good points on the newbie openness of the Byn.   I always planned to eventually make a Byn character.

My only real problem was the double meaning in calling it a newbie clan.

This may hurt to hear, but get over yourself.  Ourla wasn't trolling in this post.  When Ourla trolls you, you know it.  There are some very experienced trolls out there, and if you're really looking to get trolled, it can happen.

There's no double meaning.  The T'zai Byn IS regarded as a good place to point newbies.  Some newbies take it, some don't.  I played Arm back in the 90s and never joined the Byn.  Never really got it.  I knew Dark Sun, I knew how to codedly murder crap, but after my two steel-bracer owning half giant got murdered in the wastes by a trio of mantis during a massive sandstorm and my vivaduan elf buddy "Talon" left me to die, I just gave up. 

Then I came back years later, started up a human warrior.  Figured what the fuck.  How can I go wrong with a human warrior.  Got elf'd out of my starting cash by an elf in a byn cloak who said he could get a Sargeant there if I gave him the 300 coins.  I bit.  Sargeant found me a few days later as I was starving, took me in on a mission of mercy, and goddamn it was a GREAT experience being in that clan.  I loved it.  Real rags to riches type shit.

The Byn is a wonderful experience most times, no matter what your skill level, and the most wonderful thing about it is that if you don't like it, you can always fuck off and leave and suffer the consequences.  Leave the nice way, and sometimes bad shit won't happen... but if you're really bored, leave the mean way, and shit gets REAL interesting. 

Yeah, there's a ton of awesome clans out there for newbies.  But the most important thing for a newbie isn't the clan, it's the mentor.  Someone who has enough of a connection to remember what it's like being a newbie, enough ability to teach the things they know, and enough wisdom and strength of character to not lapse into OOC ville and form some bullshit OOC connection with a newbie just because it makes things easier. 

I'm not going to go off on a "back in my day" rant about how shit "used to be better" because people didn't spend every fucking moment they were online in a chat client arranging shit with other players.  I know I'm not alone, several of the well heeled vets still see things this way, and still don't do the OOC networking bullshit... but a TON of the newer players do, because some of the leaders drove it in to their heads that they should, which is a load of... goddamnit, said I wasn't going to rant.

Anyway, the Byn rocks.  Whether in training diapers or a rocking chair with a shotgun, it rocks.

[kayza]

Newbie clan
vers
The clan is great for newbies

Each give a different feel. 
You are wrong if you think it doesn't.

That was the only thing I am arguing.

As far as the OP original intentions, I'm fine with believing they were all positive.

[Dar]

I suspect the people who understood any part of the topic of this thread as the first meaning of the concept are very few, Kayza. Perhaps only one.

[kayza]

No there is another insane person reading it also... somewhere.

[Bluefae]

I think the T'zai Byn provides a few things: stability, schedule, and consistency.

Stability, in that while there are certainly 'slumps' in activity, such as having relatively few Troopers or Runners, or only one/two active Sergeants, you are more likely to find interaction in the T'zai Byn than not. I've played in the clan where there are 8 off-peak PC's at a given time, or just as many with little overlap at peak. As a new player coming into the game, it may be essential to have this level of interaction, so the game world can be experienced first hand through PC-to-PC conflict/plots/relationships, rather than solo RP. Let's face it -- If you join a clan like House Salarr, or House Borsail, you may go through some indeterminate slump periods. A Family Member/Noble storing or dying (esp. in GMH where there is often a high turnover for sponsored roles) can really take the wind out of the sails for a Clan. Weeks can go by where you only see one PC in your House, etc. For a newbie, I think this can be a death knell. They'll stop logging in, because they don't know how to make fun for themselves yet. They rely on other PC's to show them the way, while they blunder through their first five PC's (though I guess people are getting better at this recently, it took me maybe 5 or 6 before I truly 'got it'). I think the T'zai Byn is a good testing ground in this sense.

Schedule, because while other clans may or may not have a schedule, the Byn invented it. It's hard, it's tried, it's true. If you're caught skipping chores, you get whipped. If you skip more than a few times, you get worse. The idea that there is a strict schedule that everyone in the Company must adhere to helps pull PC's out of their hiding holes and into the same space together, so they can interact, get to know one another, make friends (or enemies) and otherwise incubate plots. Sweeping the Workshop isn't about sweeping the workshop -- Sure, you can toss out a few emotes, pick up a broom, and so on. Instead, it's about the interaction born from being in the same place, at the same time.

Consistency, because even a newbie can become Amos the Terrible, the warrior trained in the Byn. The Byn spars more than any other clan in the game, and it allows even newbies to the combat code to get to a pretty decent level of combat ability, especially if they travel on contracts. Anyone who has trained in the Byn becomes a worthy prospect to other organizations. If a newbie can stick out the rough incredibly non-intuitive MUD syntax/code (say if they are a first time MUDder, which is how it goes now-a-days), get into the theme of the world, get into the idea of the T'zai Byn and being a mercenary, and makes it to Trooper level and graduates -- They're almost guaranteed a job with a GMH or a noble house. At this point, they will have (hopefully) seen the world over, killed some Gith, nearly been eaten by spiders, sweated out a storm in the Fort, amongst other activities, and really gotten in character. Now they can work for Salarr or Borsail without derping on "how do I stop guarding".

This isn't to say other Clans aren't suited for newbies, they are just not as well suited. A newbie can survive in House Kadius, or Salarr, or Borsail, and I have every iota of confidence in our player base. I think the people who play text based RPI's are incredibly intelligent for the most part, and have great imaginations and reasoning skills. A newbie that tries in earnest to get it, will likely get it. But I think the T'zai Byn is an invaluable resource for newbies, yes.

    Rei, I think this is a strong post with well-articulated points.  I didn't play in the Byn for the first two years of my Arm. "career", but after a certain mildly-deranged mace-wielder of mine started her career there, it holds a special place in my heart.

    To amplify one of your later points:  When I've been explaining Arm. in general and the Byn in particular to non-MUDder friends (at least half-a-dozen of whom I've managed to hoodwink into playing eventually =) ), I've always cited the later as "the quintessential Armageddon experience".  It's filthy, it's gritty, and it's all but guaranteed to be violent.  There's also brutality galore, and it gives newbies (and vets who have been playing more genteel roles) a "worm's eye view" of the game-world.

[Schrodingers Cat]

The Byn used to be considered the official newbie clan, I'm not sure how that's changed, but I guess from some of the responses here that reputation has waned some.  As a military organization the Byn is a good way for hack and slash type mudders to adapt and transition to an RPI environment.  It has a combat component that is familiar. New players get to spar and even sometimes "kill stuff", giving them a feeling of fulfillment as they are exposed to the roleplay of others.  However to really be successful at this the Byn has to overcome the same problems other clans (especially military clans) suffer from, and that is lack of members (to go do things) and active and involved leadership (to take them there to do the things).  But when the Byn is active with a good leader, it shines like no other (especially where new players are concerned).

Travel
The Byn should be travelling around to different places, cities, villages, outposts, outlying areas.  Each of these offer new players opportunities to learn about the world.  Depending on where they go, they can learn about all kinds of things, that will help them with future character.  Basically an IC education.

Neutrality
Because the Byn will work for anyone that pays them, that creates many opportunities for a new player to be exposed to the different clans in the world, mostly noble and merchant houses.  This is more of a political education.  New players won't learn as much as if they were playing in each individual clan, but they'll gain a broad overview of what each clan does and how different organizations interact with each other, while being able to keep their head down being and staying out of the fray (unless you're a sarge).

Friendships  
The Byn doesn't make anyone take life oaths (that I know of).  That means members come and go and sometimes even return.  If a new player manages to survive and decides to join another clan, lets say a noble house.  The friends that they have from their days in the Byn can become invaluable allies, especially if they're members of other organizations.  This isn't necessarily a boon just to new players, but to anyone that plays in the Byn.

Aside from the nature of the clan to force players together to interact giving new players an opportunity to learn and appreciate the role-play our game has to offer, the Byn offers a unique way for new players to receive a broad OOC education about the IC game world. How it works and interacts, more so than other clans.

[hyzhenhok]

The hardest part of being a Byn sergeant isn't recruiting/training. It's networking, schmoozing with other leaders who will give you contracts. Other leaders have to do that for plots too, of course, but not for the day-to-day operation of the clan! Hard stuff.

So a Byn sergeant has to network, schmooze, work with the recruits and regulars, go out on contracts.... when do they have the time to actually teach on an OOC level?

Honestly I suspect it's the most difficult clan leadership roles of its kind. Though my view is a bit colored because I didn't have nearly enough time to devote to the game when I played one.

[Rhyden]

The Byn is a good starting spot for newbs. However, my first character joined Salarr in Tuluk who at the time were also very newbie-friendly.

The Byn (like every other clan) is only as awesome as their leaders. So is the Byn the official "Newbie Clan?" I don't think so.

But if you're a newbie who is willing to learn, with a modicum of patience, and a good leader, the Byn may be exactly for you.

As I said, Salarr was my starting newbie clan, but I didn't actually "get" the gritty atmosphere of Zalanthas until I rolled my first Bynner.

[valeria]

House Kadius was my newbie clan.  It was technically House Tor, but I joined House Tor into an empty clan with my first character and just ended up storing.  Played SoI or something for two weeks in the meanwhile, hated it, rolled a new character on Armageddon.  Joined House Kadius.  House Kadius held my hand until I was all grow'd up, and here I am.

So I'm with the "I think the Byn is a great newbie clan but I think just about any active clan would also be a great newbie clan" crowd.

[Ourla]

There have been some really excellent posts here. Reiloth kind of summed up what I wanted to tell my friends about the game. The Byn isn't OOCly intended to be for new players, but it's very realistically the best option for your first PC (sergeants and active clannies notwithstanding, as many of you have pointed out). If you hunker down and follow their rules, you'll graduate with an imminently hireable character whose RP options are much, much more varied than they were as a 1-hour tavern-sitter.  I've long felt that the Byn was underappreciated and I hope this thread gets some players thinking about spicing up life in that clan for others. 

Also, a shout-out to leader PCs... don't forget to hire the Byn! I had a northern templar a few years ago who was running a fricking huge RPT, and was responsible for hiring extra security. My staff kindly reminded me that I should arrange a contract with the Byn. They did a great job and saw some deep shit that they never would have otherwise. Keep those shitcloaks hopping with missions.  Need a pretty fur for your pillows at the next tea party? Get the Byn. Need some muscle to show off when you send your envoy shopping for you to Luirs? Get the Byn. Don't want to wipe your own ass? Get the Byn!

Incidentally, my noob clan wasn't the T'zai Byn, either... it was House Kadius and First Hunter Ojun that had the kindness and fortitude to correct my multitude of mistakes without ever breaking character to use the OOC command. Patient teachers could be anywhere in the game, but they'll always be in the Byn.

[musashi]

No Ourla. The Byn sucks. And you must accept it.

[AreteX]

When the Byn is full it's great, when it isn't, it is difficult.

I've had many characters in the Byn and everytime the Byn is full with 2-3 people at each task during the given in-game week then it is a blast.  You get in trouble, you make friends, enemies, watch, learn, listen.  Its all great interaction and it leads to more plots than you would think.  That is the best part about the Byn.  A gruff, shit-crested outside, with a soft, nuance-filled interior.

My favorite friends and enemies have all been inside the Byn at some point or another.

Since you will be playing with friends(I assume) and all around the same relative time, you should have a great time and also provide entertainment and fun for those who are around at the same time because they will have a core group to work with.

I say do it.

[Morrolan]

When my first Byn Sarge was just a wee runner, he was fingered for raiding by some other bynners (who were, of course, the ones out raiding).

Those hours in the cell, waiting to see if he would die...that was some good RP.