Houses aren't for commoners

[John]

Houses aren't for commoners.  If you want a house, become a noble.  You'll notice even they have communal dwellings...

This seems contrary to what has occurred in the past and even what's currently in game.

In the past Nenyuk was an active clan that players belonged to. During this time both apartments and houses were available to rent and both were available to commoners and nobles alike. Over the years the Nenyuk role saw less support as Immortals came and left and there were OOC difficulties. There was a loss of information as PC Nenyuki agents came and went with no record kept. Web tools were developed, but they were prone to bugs and information was still lost. Furthermore the house was somewhat limited in it's PC relation potential. There was no real room for PC employees (no need for hunters or crafters like the other Merchant Houses) which limited plots to a degree.

Then Raesanos (from memory) developed the amazing apartment code we now see commonly used. With this, PC Nenyuki agents were no longer needed. However due to code limitations it only works in "gated compound" type areas and so we saw the apartments currently in game get abandoned to VNPCs only.

Now the current state of the game is those houses are still available all over the Commoners Quarter in Allanak (with some houses available in other quarters as well). Now because the apartment script isn't applied to them (can't be applied to them?), they're no longer rented by PCs.

My query is, is this OOC element now being incorporated into the game as "houses aren't appropriate for commoners"? If so will we see the current houses removed from the game as they're converted to tenement buildings (not necessarily codedly created, but perhaps simply removed and have the connecting room descriptions changed)? Spruced up as they're made appropriate for higher class people? Will we start seeing house guards standing out the front?

What do people think?

[musashi]

I think you raised some really good points regarding current geographical locations for houses, and past precident.

[Lizzie]

I don't understand the premise of "houses are for nobility, not for common people."

There are houses in the commoner's quarter. There are houses in the noble's quarter. Tor, Borsail, and Oash have satellite compounds in the commoner's quarter. There were houses in the elementalist quarter. Why would a noble -want- to live in the gemmer quarter, when they have a mansion in their own quarter? Who else *would* live in the gemmer quarter, but commoners? That house across the street from the Oash satellite, down from the herb shop - perfect spot for a ranking Oash Elite for couple of years, as a reward for a job well done. Not for Lord Oash to live in; for the commoner employee to live in.

The place near Meleth's Circle at what used to be the secondary path to the gemmer quarter - an awesome spot for a ranking Terash agent, whose job it is to hobnob with nobles and who is most likely to be needed for meetings in the garden.

The house that used to be around the corner from Stonecarver - perfect for a noble's Senior aide and her personal staff.

Commoners of high rank shouldn't need to share a hall with ruffians in the same building, unless their employer chooses not to entitle them to more, or unless there are simply no better vacancies available at the time. Plotting for a vacancy could make for an interesting mini-set of plotlines (that Tor, she's always taking THAT apartment for her aide..MY aide is higher ranking, I should get it! Let's just have a talk with Templar Booboo and see what kind of violation of law the Tor aide has committed recently. Or what violation we can create for her to have committed, mwahahahaha)

It could give the Guild more mini-plotlines to get involved with "Psst..hey Ratso. You know that big house where the Tor aide lives? There's a couple pieces of *metal* on a table on the second floor hall. I'm thinking that Tor bitch shouldn't be having that in her house, it's dangerous and she might get hurt. How about you relieve her of her burden. And when the Oash aide moves in, we'll make sure there's nothing in there worth stealing, so you don't gotta even look in there after that."

And then Borsail gets to hire the Guild to leave a sign of their "disapproval" when Oash moves in, and then Fale hires the Guild to ensure a sudden, unexpected vacancy when the Oash aide has an unfortunate fall off the roof of the house.

And so on and so forth. Of course, you'd need a Nenyuk agent for all that, but it seems the agent could get into some pretty fun plotlines of his own that way - getting neck-deep involved in the Guild (even though Nenyuk and the Guild are diametrically opposed), maybe hiring a [redacted] to spy on the goings-on in a house currently rented by someone whose behavior has been suspicious lately...accepting bribes, whatever else.

[John]

I don't understand the premise of "houses are for nobility, not for common people."

...

perfect spot for a ranking Oash Elite ... an awesome spot for a ranking Terash agent ... perfect for a noble's Senior aide

Not to misrepresent Adhira, but I think this view isn't incompatible with what Adhira was saying. I don't think Adhira is literally saying that nobles should live in these houses (although they have in the past). I think she's saying that these should be limited to those with House connections to pull the strings. The original quote was responding to the request that we have houses be rentable (presumably through an automated script). In that context Adhira could be saying "something like that should be dealt with via Clan Immortals."

Or I could be completely off base.

That said, these houses weren't always limited to those with house connections to pull strings to get you the house.

But maybe they should be? I was thinking if they are though, is it reasonable to see house guards put on them? Would House Borsail want to hand out a house as a reward, if it's only going to get broken into? It can become a serious security risk as assassins can break in, hide inside and come out and kill the aide free from prying eyes without additional security. Are all of them appropriate for noble aides/high ranking merchants? Or are some of the descriptions rather rundown? (It's been a long time since I saw the inside of one of these).

[Clearsighted]

It seems like it basically comes down to there being lots of shit holes for rent, and there being lots of sweeping, unimaginably luxurious compounds on display, but nothing really in between. Except maybe the T'zai Byn - they have a large shithole. This mostly affects the uber-successful independents.

In fact, this has lead in the past to independent hunter or grebber groups pooling sids to purchase really fancy, multiple-room apartments...and I never thought that was quite right either. Since such a group would ordinarily have acquired some mid-sized shit hole for their operations.

The new warehouses should alleviate this whole phenomena somewhat, since current Houses, noble and merchant alike already have access to tons of storage space. It'll just be the luck of who gets them or not. I suspect that these slots will end up as auxiliary cargo holds to the current major Houses and will never be available again to any aspiring independent group.

[My 2 sids]

Nobility live in their estates.  Everything else are apartments and townhomes. 

I think PCs live differently from the other commoners in that they often live on their own. Whereas, I think the norm (for noble & commoner alike) is to live in extended families or groups.  That is, when there are six to sixteen people in an one to five room space suddenly appartments seem more "commoner " .

[FantasyWriter]

Dwarf Krathi agressor
Focus: Destroy all human dwellings.

[Jeshin]

I would point out that the majority of clanned PCs have access communal housing. Which traditionally seems to be more secure than apartments.

All Tribal PCs [the tents]
All GMH PCs [barracks]
All Military Clan PCs [barracks]
All clanned aides [also barracks or estate]

Even PCs like gypsies and bards who appear wealthy often live in communal dwellings or have such open to them.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't see a problem with PCs not having access to large houses. Only being able to have two renters an apartment that by Zalanthan standards could easily sleep a half dozen people, however....

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't see a problem with PCs not having access to large houses. Only being able to have two renters an apartment that by Zalanthan standards could easily sleep a half dozen people, however....

That's the one that gets me. Forcing a limit of 2 renters seems totally out of step with the idea that people are living in crowded conditions and forces pcs to be out of step with the living situation of most npcs and vnpcs by coded means. Something I would think would be the opposite of the desired effect.

[Old Kank]

Over the years the Nenyuk role saw less support as Immortals came and left and there were OOC difficulties. There was a loss of information as PC Nenyuki agents came and went with no record kept. Web tools were developed, but they were prone to bugs and information was still lost. Furthermore the house was somewhat limited in it's PC relation potential. There was no real room for PC employees (no need for hunters or crafters like the other Merchant Houses) which limited plots to a degree.

You missed the biggest problem with Nenyuk:

A Nenyuk PC instantly became the busiest, and most powerful PC in the game.  Want a house?  Better start kissing that Nenyuk's ass.  Harass, annoy, or kill the Nenyuk agent?  You and everyone else lose their houses.  Overwhelm the Nenyuk PC with a hundred different requests for houses?  They'll probably stop playing, because people don't play Arm just to file paperwork on behalf of your PC.  It wasn't a working scenario.

My query is, is this OOC element now being incorporated into the game as "houses aren't appropriate for commoners"? If so will we see the current houses removed from the game as they're converted to tenement buildings (not necessarily codedly created, but perhaps simply removed and have the connecting room descriptions changed)? Spruced up as they're made appropriate for higher class people? Will we start seeing house guards standing out the front?

What do people think?

I think individual housing isn't feasible for the vast majority of the game, but if the majority of players continue to demand it then the staff will have no choice but to retcon it and do away with it.  That's not a snarky swipe at you or any member of the playerbase, it's just a reality of the game.  There are some toys that just become more trouble than they're worth and usually end up getting removed, like masks and spiked bracers and maybe independent housing.

[Maso]

Those buildings are there. It would be nice to see them used -some how-, or at least available for consideration of use some how.

Maybe with the addition of warehouses, some small player led groups will get large enough to be able to rent one and transform it into a new shop, or brothel, or barracks.

Is there no feasible coded way to make them available to PC's via NPC? What about if it was something like...rent by the year (making them exclusive and expensive). For that you can 'buy' keys from the NPC. You can then hand out those keys to PC buddies you want to share with. Someone loses a key or it gets stolen - you have to pay to replace it. Opens up opportunity for thieves to steal keys to break in (but the locks would be super hard to pick to balance it out). Miss your rent when the year rolls around - the locks get changed and those keys become redundant.

[Adhira]

Actually the buildings are not there.  They were moved and made in to the apartments.  There are only 2 'houses' in Allanak for instance, both are owned by noble houses, one is currently rented out.

Code isn't the issue.  We are looking at apartments, there may be more along those lines.  Right now houses are not on the agenda.

[Adhira]

Also, thank you John for the timely reminder not to make throwawy comments on the GDB. I'll make sure to keep my tongue in cheek remarks to to myself and not post them here to cause a furor in the future.

[Maso]

Huh! I thought I remembered there being more houses around! :p

[Rhyden]

Unless they've been removed recently, there are several empty houses in Allanak's commoner and gemmer quarter, which I think is what the OP is referring to.

[BadSkeelz]

Unless they've been removed recently, there are several empty houses in Allanak's commoner and gemmer quarter, which I think is what the OP is referring to.

Yeah, there's a couple of one-room dwellings and even a few larger (two or three room) houses off of the main roads.

[Delirium]

To nitpick... those are apartments, not houses, but... yeah, it is a bit strange that they're "empty".

[Adhira]

Ah yes, those places. I was referring only to those ones that were actually ever usuable by pcs. At least the ones in my 10 years or so of being with the game.

[Adhira]

To clarify, my comment in random thoughts was not 'official policy' it's not a ruling.  There 's no rule saying commoners can't have housing.  To add further, we aren't planning to do anything to make it so there are houses available, rentable etc for players.  We're happy with the apartment type situation.

[Delirium]

I think it would be kinda cool to have various scripted NPCs live in those "empty" apartments, which could be loaded with a few random objects... maybe 3-4 that wander around inside and/or occasionally leave for "work" on a routine, that people can take the time to learn, calculate good times to go a'robbin, etc.... give something for burglars/assassins to do besides cherrypick PC apartments.

[Adhira]

Sure would.

[jstorrie]

Be the [person who writes up all the NPCs] you want to see in the world, Delirium.

[jstorrie]

Personally I think I'm mostly okay with houses and other permanent residences being unavailable to commoners in-game, as it enforces the class disparity in the cities. PC commoners with the ability to lease actual houses should be extremely rare. Right now some random dude could hire up a house on the back of all the black silky braies he steals every reboot and it would be jarring.

[Delirium]

I totally would. This is me volunteering!

[musashi]

You heard her Adhira. Put her ass to work! >_>

[Adhira]

I'm leaving that offer open to any other staff member who wants to take it up   Sounds great, but wrestling with NPC Brain is not something I want to do be doing right now.   But, maybe someone will!

[Maso]

They wouldn't all have to be walking around on schedules. Some of them could be crammed full of old folk and kids who just sit around in their own dirt too.

Anyway, I would also be happy to write up NPC's if a staffer decided to undertake such a project.

[Nyr]

NPC brain can't do it, sadly.  I just checked on that.  If it could, that'd be a potential project, perhaps!  However, we probably would want to focus our efforts in other areas rather than niche areas like this.  The cool factor would be high the first time it was noticed (assuming it could be coded), but it doesn't add very much to the game compared to the effort involved in coding, building, and setup of a such a script.  It'd just be for Allanak, just for "cool" factor, just for potential burglars that don't want to target PCs.

[Delirium]

You heartbreaker.

I was already imagining this scenario....

>peek child
>steal candy child
... Got it!

[Twilight]

I totally rented one of the apartments/houses in Elementalists Quarter at one time.  Admittedly, that was over 10 years ago.  My understanding is that the place that looked more like an estate hasn't been used in over fifteen years, but was at one point used by PCs.

On a perhaps interesting side note, it was while we had an active PC Nenyuki that had effectively rented out all the Allanak PC housing that I noticed what I thought was a limitation in the way housing was set up.  That is to say, entrances off normal rooms.  This in effect meant that you have a limit on the amount of housing you can put in without it becoming insanely confusing.  Also, having read some of the room descriptions, I didn't think that is how folks would live.

So I, unsolicited, wrote up the mud brick tenement building and room layout that is outside Red's Retreat.  Originally, it had NPCs written for it that occupied about half the rooms.  The other empty ones were meant for whoever was playing in Nenyuk to rent out.  I think it was originally implemented that way, then converted when the apartment code went in.

I think I submitted that in 2002.  Before that, player rented housing (ie not clan) was single room link from a street to a single dwelling, which I think is what people mean by "houses", with the except of desert elf housing.

[Adhira]

95% of those rentable houses got shifted in to apartments.  What's left on the street are essentially shells. Or nothing.  The insides got moved in to the one building.

[Shepard]

Easy fix -

Make a Burglar

Pick door unlock

enter

pick door lock

- You now have a free house to live in!

[lordcooper]

Pick door unlock

enter

pick door lock

- You now have a free house to live in!

Works in RL too!

[kayza]

My characters are never common so they all have houses.

I do wish we could have like ten people living in one apartment.

[Bast]

maybe not ten but certainly more than two. Though in the ghetto's in Brazil you will see like up to 30 people in one tiny room. They sleep in shifts and its practically slavery. My girl friends mothers maid makes like 6 cents a week or something around there.