Player's meetings on saturdays

[hammie2]

I would like to propose se begin a player's meeting on Saturdays.  I have received feedback private to the effect that a few persons would like to attend.  If anyone would like to do so, please PM me or respond on here to the effect.

If you do not plan on attending and have something positive to say, please respond.  I'd like to keep the spam down which is why I made the above request.

Thank you for your time.

On a side note.  Dam you creators of armageddon, I lost one job and a girlfriend because of this too dam nicely made game.  ARGHHHHHHHHHH.  
I can't stop argghhhhh

[mansa]

I think you should have a few topics you wish to discuss, before you start your meeting.  

But, if you have it on the IRC channel, lots of funk will be going on in the backgrounds over a private message.

I personally think you should just post questions here on the GDB.  It gets a bit spammy, yes.  IRC wouldn't be any different.  In fact, I bet IRC would be -way- more spammy.  So then it would be different, in the BAD way.

If you're looking for a one-on-one interview about how well you're doing with your character and your role-play...Maybe ask your clan immortal (or if your not part of a clan, to email the mud account) to get them to give you a few pointers.  Sure, it might take a month's time of waiting before you get -any- response, even a no, but, it can't hurt to try.


How player/staff meetings went before was...there was a specific time set aside, the topics were already mentioned, and if you wanted to join, you wished up, and they transported you to a certain section of the MUD.  You had a list of rules, like:
a) Don't emote
b) Don't look
c) Don't talk
d) Raise your Hood before wishing up.
e) Have your point on what you want to say prewritten in a Word Processing program and just copy and paste into your client.
f) If you break rules 1-4 your character will DIE!!!!!!

And that went pretty well.  (And then Karianna mentioned the name of someone's character by accident and she goofed.  I remember that, Shi)

So, those are some bits of thoughts for you, Hammie2.

Let me sum it up again:
Don't bother with the meeting.  Just post on GDB.  Spam spam.

[ashyom]

I encourage you to contact the mud first.  I can't speak for the rest of us, but I do have concerns that some people may take advantage of this to share OOC information even further.  Keep in mind, I'm not saying that will happen, but rather just that it is a concern, and I and probably both the staff staff and other players would feel better knowing that you were working with the mud on this.

Ashyom

[Carnage]

Yeah, I agree with Mansa. Usually meetings are designed to discuss something that the staff feels needs to be discussed. What do you think needs to be discussed so much that it requires a player/staff meeting? These things take work and a lot of time.

I lost one job and a girlfriend because of this too dam nicely made game.

I'm not trying to make fun of you or poke at this, but I think you need to get your priorities in order. A job and people come way before a stupid game. If you're really "addicted" like that I think you need to get help.

[hammie2]

Ahh the concept of humor, so misunderstood, so misinterpreted

[Miee]

Ahh the concept of humor, so misunderstood, so misinterpreted

You mean subjective, right?

[Callisto]

Ahh the concept of humor, so misunderstood, so misinterpreted

You forgot the period at the end of your sentence.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

This player's meeting is an excellent idea.

It would give all players an opportunity to express their concerns, ideas, questions and comments in a chat environment that would exist for the sole purpose of discussing the game.

There are chat channels which do exist, but they inevitably degenerate into a social OOC hangout where game coverage is limited. A weekly meeting time would ensure that the topics covered in the chat would be strictly limited to Armageddon MUD.

[Angela Christine]

I'm not sure it's necesseary, but if you want to have this kind of meeting the easiest way might be to have second channel on the same IRC network as the existing channel.  That way it would be easy for the regular IRC crowd to access, but still seperate from the conventions of the existing channel.  

Personally I think a message board system, like this one, is more effective.  More people can participate because you aren't locked into a short window of time, and the ideas and points made endure a little longer.  IRC is too transitory to be useful, unless someone logs the session and posts the logs somewhere durable.  

Best of all possible worlds is a USENET newsgroup.  :drool:  There are a variety of ways to access the groups, the discussion can move at a brisk pace (usualy faster than web boards) and it endures forever in public archives.  Saddly it is hard to start new USENET groups, it is easy enough to start the alt.* groups, but they get poor propagation.  Also, like IRC, you get a lot of yahoos dropping in that have nothing to do with the topic.  

Well, that's not really the best of all possible worlds.  The best would be to invent a teleportation device and zap everone into a room together.  No messing around with rides and hotel rooms, just *zap* and there you are.  It's a good solution, but would take longer to set up than the other options.

AC

[ShaLeah]

At the APM last year we had a player/staff meeting. There is at least one player/staff meeting a year in game. Issues, ideas, flames are dealt with on a regular basis. I go into the IRC room, mostly to shout 'Penis!' at the top of my caps and joke around, but there have been some very interesting conversations in it. For example, LoD Snarf constantly brings up excellent ideas and discussions to that room when he is in there.

We have the GDB to discuss issues on everything as well as face to face player/staff meetings, in game player/staff meetings and a staff that is diligent about answering emails. Why do we need anything else again?

[Flaming Ocotillo]

The suggestion being proposed is a weekly scheduled chat period that would focus on aspects of Armageddon MUD.

We do not have a weekly scheduled chat period, and thus it is a valid proposal in terms of "what we do not have". It is a proposal that I find would be beneficial, seeing as we do not have the opportunity to group together as a "live" community as of yet, on a weekly basis, to discuss the game.

The existing IRC channel functions as a place to hang out and socialize, without structure or intent. It welcomes all Armageddon players, but does not enforce the need to discuss topics related to the MUD. It functions like a MUD cafeteria, and while there _can_ be productive discussion, the environment isn't structured enough to reach more than the handful of players who just happen to be sitting at the table at whatever given moment.

Furthermore, regarding the argument that there is already a structured player chat once a year, would someone protest if it was once every two years instead? What about three? I'm confident that there are players who would be interested in a player chat which came around more than once annually.

[ShaLeah]

We do not have a weekly scheduled chat period, and thus it is a valid proposal in terms of "what we do not have". It is a proposal that I find would be beneficial, seeing as we do not have the opportunity to group together as a "live" community as of yet, on a weekly basis, to discuss the game.

We discuss game aspects every single day.

It's called the GDB. Those who want to participate do, those who do not, do not.  Every topic from clothing, to protoccol, from sex to food, from slaves to taverns, every topic imaginable is available for discussion, 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. How much more live do you want?

The existing IRC channel functions as a place to hang out and socialize, without structure or intent. It welcomes all Armageddon players, but does not enforce the need to discuss topics related to the MUD. It functions like a MUD cafeteria, and while there _can_ be productive discussion, the environment isn't structured enough to reach more than the handful of players who just happen to be sitting at the table at whatever given moment.

I have no intention of entering into a player only (though staff may be invited) session of discussion. I'll tell you why, I know first hand what can happen when IC information is leaked through ooc means, including IRC, AIM, MSN, ICQ, email, etc... etc.  Non mediated player discussions degrade to arguements quickly, without the staff there to police it, and I can pretty much guarantee that they neither want to police it nor do they have time, this weekly meeting has the very lethal potential to become a buffet of IC information and code sharing.

Anything you wish to discuss can be discussed here, why add yet another medium? Specifically one that is going to be person typing over person? At least here, most of the time (heheh), posts are well thought out and organized. I know it's not needed so claiming it is is a weak arguement, wanted perhaps, needed? No way, we have all the mediums we need in which to maintain a constant level of discussion, debate and ideas.

Furthermore, regarding the argument that there is already a structured player chat once a year, would someone protest if it was once every two years instead? What about three? I'm confident that there are players who would be interested in a player chat which came around more than once annually.

These player/staff meetings are scheduled around the abilities of the staff to be present. Put yourself in their shoes:

Every day you have someone either emailing you, bitching at you, asking for something.
Every day you try and help this world come alive for the players be it by NPC interaction, coding, item creation, area creation and the like.
Every day, especially if you run a clan, you have to make yourself available for the entertainment of others.
Add to that that horrendous thing called real life which can include an Armageddon hating spouse (gasp!), a poopy baby, a dog that needs to be fed/watered/walked, a cat that needs his litter box changed, a boss who actually expects you to work, friends crying out from neglect, a church calling you a sinner because you've only made it to the last fifteen minutes of the service cause you stayed up on saturday to play Arm, a car that needs an oil change, a lawn that needs to be mowed (shall I go on?).  I say it can be pretty tiring.

Rarely, oh so rarely, someone gives you a pat on the back and tells you thanks.

Now let's add to the immortals the reading of the GDB and the idea pool in addition to their regular duties. Can anyone honestly tell me that this is not the most fantastic mud staff they have ever dealt with? Can anyone say that player ideas are not constantly implemented and most certainly listened to?

Asking them to mediate an extra player/staff meeting may not be too bad a thing, perhaps once every six months, but in the last two I have been to, there was not one discussion that hadn't been already posted/discussed on the GDB.

I just do not think it is needed and can have potentially bad results to carry on this idea.


ShaLeah
-who had one of her characters petition the mud for a scab of skin and got the item within 24 rl hours.


** Shameless Imm Praise.

You guys rock. Thank you.

[Flaming Ocotillo]

From what I understand, the arguments just presented were:

A) The discussion board serves as an adequate substitute for a "live" discussion room with real-time chat.

B) In all cases, players cannot manage themselves in a public, Arm-related discussion without a staff member present to police the event.

C) It is unreasonable to expect a staff member to participate in a public chat more than about once a year on average.

The conclusion made here is that, because staff members are usually only available once a year on average, and because staff members are necessary to govern all public discussions amongst players regarding the MUD, the weekly chat idea is actually quite -impossible-. Furthermore, since we already have a discussion board where messages are exchanged over the course of several days, there is no advantage to concentrating a live discussion at a scheduled time to generate immediate and timely feedback.

In other words, everything is perfect, which is a totally valid argument. I don't personally agree with it, but then I may be misunderstanding some of what was said. I wonder what the results of a voting poll would be?

[Bestatte]

From what I understand, the arguments just presented were:

A) The discussion board serves as an adequate substitute for a "live" discussion room with real-time chat.

B) In all cases, players cannot manage themselves in a public, Arm-related discussion without a staff member present to police the event.

C) It is unreasonable to expect a staff member to participate in a public chat more than about once a year on average.

(conclusion omitted)

A) I believe you are correct; that is, in fact, one arguement.

B) I believe you are incorrect. The arguement, from my perspective, is that in all cases, the -risk- of players not being able to manage themselves outweighs the potential reward for adding yet another method of OOC communication.

C) I'm not sure if this is one of the arguements or not, I don't recall reading it. But I have seen staff members pop into the existing IRC channel far more often than once a year. At one point we had regular visits almost daily from at least two of them.

I would suggest both A and B are the most valid of the three arguements. We really don't need another OOC method of communication, and we have seen evidence of OOC communications getting out of hand with what we have already.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I would like to start off by saying that Hammie's proposal was a good idea.  The key word in that sentence is "was."  IIRC, this was the original idea that spawned the ArmageddonMUD IRC chat.  I've been in there a handful of times, and each time there was at least one Imm there.  I stopped going because I didn't see a need, but that's just me.  A chat like that is policed by the people in the room.

I personally see no need for a real-time forum, they get very sloppy and degrade quickly.  The olnly history you have is your buffer and your log (if you remembered to log it) and that does little good.  I enjoy my position as a Helper, I enjoy discussing all aspects of the game, I enjoy helping the game out on an OOC level as much as I can.  But I will tell you now, I will not enter a chat such as that which has been proposed.

In a forum such as the GDB (both old and new) the majority of ideas and supporting arguments are presented at one time.  Can be refered to at any time by anyone, including people just logging in.  Very few posts don't get an immeadiate responce because there is almost always someone on checking (ex. at about 3:00am EST last night, there were around 6 people checking, 4 of which were people who post frequently).  But most importantly, topics can be responded to in an orderly manner.

As for the official Player-Staff meetings, we have had them more frequently over the years I've been playing.  Who knows, maybe sometime in the near future the staff will set aside an hour or so at the end of Immday for a mini-player-staff meeting.  But I don't really see much need for that either, as the majority of the P-S meetings have been about major issues for the most part, and I doubt we would have major issues each week.

Which brings me to my final topic.  For those of you who are in support for the proposed forum, what purpose will it serve.  Yes, I understand that it will allow Players and potentially Staff to talk in real time, but what about.  What is there to talk about that hasn't already been covered by some other means? or could be covered better in a real-time forum?  Think hard on this question, because it is the foundation on which your proposal exists.

[Sanvean]

A couple of thoughts. You don't say what form these meetings will take place in - and I'm not sure why using the IRC channel on a Saturday wouldn't work just as well. I have some uneasiness about meetings that are taking place without anyone e-mailing mud beforehand to at least get feedback about the plan. The nice thing about the IRC room is that you do get some staff members who will at least hang out and spout a few non sequiters on there. One of the things I appreciate about the IRC room as well is that it was checked with us beforehand, and that staff members were just as welcome to hang out as anyone else. My experience with the room is that if tha majority wants to talk about the game, then they'll talk about the game, while if they want to talk about artificial penii, social customs, or the best way to avoid the clutches of a Pusher Robot, that's what they'll talk about.

Sure, I've seen abuses on there, but it's also pretty successful at self-policing, and it's the lack of headaches caused by that forum that has made me feel that the hands-off policy has worked pretty well. At one point I suggested having regular IRC sessions with staff members attending on Saturdays, but some staff felt that this would keep them from getting game work done - we can encourage staff to hang out on those days, though, if that sounds good.

Staff members are available much more than once a year, I think - and I'd like to schedule a player staff meeting in early September for folks, if people are interested. A big advantage of those, for me at least, is that they're logged and can be referred to. One phenomenon that I and other staff have encountered on the IRC channel is what I'll label the "Dad didn't say it WASN'T okay to kill the cat" syndrome, where someone rushes an idea past you and unless you reply in very definite negatives, you'll find yourself being cited as having approved it shortly thereafter. This, understandably, leads to some hard feelings on both sides, and I'd rather have the meeting, where we're talking in generalities about the game, rather than having 5 people separately messaging me about their character and how s/he is developing a flying castle with lasers.

One thing I've noticed about the GDB, as a sidenote, is that some people tend to be much more vocal than others - perhaps because of its more formal nature. One BBS community I was reading about had a monthly "Lurker's Day", where you could only post if you weren't one of the regular posters. Is that something people think would be a viable idea?

Note: I am still on vacation and not answering email/PMs until the 20th.

[hammie2]

Excellent point.  I have not approached the staff as yet because I wanted to throw the idea out there first to get some feedback on it before I spent a few hours formulating an idea and writing it down, only to see 2 people show up.

Rest assured, nothing will take place until the staff is properly notified.  This was pointed out before hand in a pm to me by one of the helpers and I assured them of the same thing.

I would gladly inform the staff before hand.

-Ham.

[creeper386]

Am I invited?



Creeper

[Anonymous]

HELL no.   :wink: