Making Wagons

[Kebron]

So if Merchants can build wagons, and there are supposedly all these highly payed independent merchant types, then how come you don't see independent merchant wagons? *boggle*
Is it the inability to get NPC guards to protect them? Cus seems like that could be solved with having a smaller wagon you could stable like a regular mount..

[Kismetic]

Skill Wagon Making                                                       (Skill)

   This much prized skill allows the crafter to construct simple wagons
from the appropriate raw materials.  This is a laborious process, usually
requiring constructing the pieces from which the wagon will be assembled.

Please note: this skill is not fully implemented yet.

[Delirium]

race: dwarf
focus: build the perfect wagon

I imagine that if you worked long and hard enough, and had the cash on hand, you would be able to mastercraft a (smallish) wagon, and purchase the NPC slaves to guard it. Likely you would want to buy at least two so that you could 'rotate' them on guard duty (i.e. maybe not codedly, but it'd add to the realism).

[Riya OniSenshi]

Advance Search the Ask the Staff board for the word "wagon" (no quotes) and you'll see the many reasons why from a bunch of different staff over the past decade.

[Jeshin]

I know personally of only 1 PC who MCed a wagon and it was for an established clan. Something you need to be aware of however is that wagons have to be individually built by staff, npcs need to be written, and virtual considerations also have to be made.

Example:

Where would you keep the supplies to build a wagon? Individual apartments are -not- big enough.

Where are you going to park this wagon? I'm not sure, but I'm almost positive that wagon yards virtually cost money to use, just like stables. I imagine clans with a wagon are paying the powers that be for the right to park.

Where did you have the wagon constructed? One of the GMHs actually specializes in constructing wagons, how did your PC construct one if not using them? Where did they secure the space and guards to protect it during construction as well as the man power?

These are just something that make non-clanned PCs owning a wagon a serious hurtle. Before you start building the components and such, you'll likely want to have a dialogue with the staff via character reports or the request tool to make sure that you understand the requirements and that they have the time to devote to creating the wagon.

[brytta.leofa]

I'm guessing that wagonmaking, incomplete as it may be, is a branched, high-level, merchant-only skill.  Given that...

It would be glorious to have a couple of stock wagon recipes that could be used without staff intervention.  Nothing too fancy: a one-room, enterable wagon.  And maybe an open cart, built on the skimmer mechanics.

[Rhyden]

I'm guessing that wagonmaking, incomplete as it may be, is a branched, high-level, merchant-only skill.  Given that...

It would be glorious to have a couple of stock wagon recipes that could be used without staff intervention.  Nothing too fancy: a one-room, enterable wagon.  And maybe an open cart, built on the skimmer mechanics.

Oh my god yes. Please.

This kind of addition would bring ArmageddonMUD to a whole. Notha. Level.

[Patuk]

I'm guessing that wagonmaking, incomplete as it may be, is a branched, high-level, merchant-only skill.  Given that...

It would be glorious to have a couple of stock wagon recipes that could be used without staff intervention.  Nothing too fancy: a one-room, enterable wagon.  And maybe an open cart, built on the skimmer mechanics.

It's not hard at all to branch it, in fact.

That said.. Yes. Being able to craft even a simple wagon, something to allow to be drawed by a single inix, would be amazing.

[drunkendwarf]

race: dwarf
focus: build the perfect wagon

I imagine that if you worked long and hard enough, and had the cash on hand, you would be able to mastercraft a (smallish) wagon, and purchase the NPC slaves to guard it. Likely you would want to buy at least two so that you could 'rotate' them on guard duty (i.e. maybe not codedly, but it'd add to the realism).

No, you can't. I had a dwarf with a focus of building a wagon and was told "No" by staff.

[Kebron]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

[drunkendwarf]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I'd love to hear it too. Because we had the ability, we had a place to build the wagon, we had the coin and we had the materials. And I was told, outright, that we would not be allowed to build a wagon.

[Maso]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I'd love to hear it too. Because we had the ability, we had a place to build the wagon, we had the coin and we had the materials. And I was told, outright, that we would not be allowed to build a wagon.

What was the reason?

[Bast]

I think the issue is you can't be attacked without staff doing it and a couple of other things. At least this was one of the reason I was given a few years ago when a group I was in had saved up over 100k for one.  would be bad ass though. Even if just being able to build small carts and such.

[Dresan]

Yeah my understanding is that there are a lot of potential bugs associated with wagons too.

The good news is that for a while the idea was thrown around of making smaller wagons that people could attach to an Inix or beetle. Not sure what happened to that idea, but it seemed really neat for a while there.

[Seeker]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I am that player.  I played a Merchant PC who was able to complete a wagon.  It was huge project.  I will give the steps of how I made it possible for my PC:

1)  The PC maneuvered himself into a Great Merchant House that specialized in wagons.  This was important because they had the fantastic resources and equipment in place.  Picture a navy shipyard.  My PC was able to utilize the multitude of ladders, berth space, support infrastructure to hold the developing frame and the incredibly expensive and complex array of tools needed.  
2)  The PC in question was able to develop the skills to oversee the project, but also able to politically move up the power structure of the House.  This was important because it gave him access to the incredible manpower, both PC and vNPC/NPC needed as well as the overwhelming resources needed for the project.  By this time he was over 120 days played, and essentially ran the entire wagon division of this Great Merchant House.  He was big wig on a mission.
3)  I made it fun for the clan.  I had dozens of PC involved in the process, gathering materials, RPing work on the scaffolds, getting drunk on the skeleton of the frame.

That was my trick.  Get the skill, get the resources, get the manpower, get the Powers That Be to profit and so support it, and make it benefit to as many players as possible.


Seeker

[drunkendwarf]

My entire interaction with staff on the matter, started 12/26/2008:

It looks as though we're turning our attention toward obtaining a wagon. We have a crafter in the group (the character is <PC Merchant>) who claims he might be able to figure out how to do such, given enough wood and time to practice. One can only assume he's got the wagonmaking skill, unless he's pulling our legs. I'm wondering what may be required for our group to eventually arrive at a fully functional wagon.
We have at the moment:
1) A space for him to build the wagon. <PC Noble>, of House <Noble House>, has offered up their estate grounds for <PC Merchant> to begin construction of the wagon. Their price is a second wagon...but that's another email.
2) Around 40k in coins saved up between the characters involved. More can be obtained if needed, although I imagine if we're building it ourselves the cost of such should be minimal, if we supply the raw materials ourselves.
3) Access to tons of wood, which we will begin bringing in by the shitload.

What else might be required, what sort of timeline are we looking at, and what (if any) immortal assistance might we need in this endeavor?

Thank you very much!

Constructing a wagon is a task that would ICly require several master craftspeople and a lot of resources.  That is why wagons are generally only made by merchant houses.

While I am sure that this PC has the wagon_making skill, I would be highly surprised if they were able to make anything other than a wheel or other simple parts.  It's a very complex task.

-Vanth

I have to say after deciding to take on a monumental task such as this, which certainly has leadership potential, potential long lasting affects to the game, and giving some unclanned people a chance to take part in something fun and exciting, receiving a response such as this is rather disheartening. No suggestions, no list of what else we may need, basically just a 'you probably can't do it'. I realize this task is going to be difficult to achieve, but I also certainly hope the staff wouldn't deem it impossible.

Would it really require several master craftspeople, or just one acting as 'foreman' and a crew of people to help with the building? I don't understand why more than one person with master knowhow is required. I understand this is a complex task, but given enough time and materials to screw up while learning, this level of skill should be attainable by your average merchant, right? We have wagons in the wagonyard readily accessible for study, as far as axles, wheels, etc go. And I would think the most complex parts of any wagon would be the parts you can study from the outside, although we can get access to study a wagon in-depth, inside and out up close and personal. Both parked and moving.

This has become my dwarf's focus now, and I've hit a wall as to how to go about this without a bit of guidance or assistance from the immortals. Either my dwarf is going to die, or he's going to get a wagon. I've asked Kadius and Kurac both IC, and both say they aren't building wagons for sale. I'm not sure why they have stopped selling wagons, as no explanation has been given. I've asked the Tan Muark if they could build one for us, and am currently awaiting a response. My character doesn't care how he gets one, just that is happens. We do have a decent amount of coin saved up, if buying one were to become an option. Although it is starting to look like my only course of action would be to have it built independently and personally it sounds more exciting to me to rally a group of people together and watch it slowly come to life, than to fork over 80k (or whatever it'll cost) in coin and have it roll up.

Can a character achieve the level of wagon making necessary to do this by working on wheels, etc and sending in logs of studying already built wagons? Obviously immortal assistance is going to be required at some point to make this a reality. As opposed to the answer supplied by Vanth, can someone please provide suggestions/assistance to make this a reality? What else might we need to do to get this crafter to the level of being able to assemble a fully working wagon, aside from have him build wheels, axles and send in logs of studying the bits and pieces of wagons already made?  Can my dwarf, with enough study and work, get the wagon making skill added, and bring it to the level that he could instruct a crew of workers and get one built? If multiple master crafters are required, can a small group of people get the skill added and brought up to the required level, given enough instruction from the PC that already has the skill, and studying wagons?

As stated before in my first email, we have:
1) A space to keep the wagon while it is being built.
2) 40k+ in coins saved up, for whatever costs there might need to be during construction. Or to just buy the wagon.
3) Ready access to plenty of wood.
4) A merchant who can now build hubs and wheels for wagons.

What other steps do we need to take to get this project moving forward more other than the merchant building a pile of wagon wheels? Please help me here.

Thanks much.

Current policy states that we are not creating unique objects for characters, unless that character is a master crafter of the craft in question.

It is not currently codedly possible to become a master crafter in wagonmaking.

I agree with you that this plot has a lot of potential for roleplay and fun.  However, if we created wagons for every player who wanted to have roleplay and fun, every character in game would have a wagon.  That would not be in keeping with the setting of the game, which is a harsh desert world where everyone has to scrap by for existence, not a cushy desert world where everyone has 40k and a phat wagon to cruise in.

To be completely clear here, we will not be creating any new wagons.  If you would like access to a wagon, you will need to join a merchant house or other organization that already owns one.

Regards,
Vanth

[drunkendwarf]

I'd really like to hear from a player who has successfully constructed a wagon and what they had to do without going into IC detail, and also how difficult this really was.

I am that player.  I played a Merchant PC who was able to complete a wagon.  It was huge project.  I will give the steps of how I made it possible for my PC:

1)  The PC maneuvered himself into a Great Merchant House that specialized in wagons.  This was important because they had the fantastic resources and equipment in place.  Picture a navy shipyard.  My PC was able to utilize the multitude of ladders, berth space, support infrastructure to hold the developing frame and the incredibly expensive and complex array of tools needed.  
2)  The PC in question was able to develop the skills to oversee the project, but also able to politically move up the power structure of the House.  This was important because it gave him access to the incredible manpower, both PC and vNPC/NPC needed as well as the overwhelming resources needed for the project.  By this time he was over 120 days played, and essentially ran the entire wagon division of this Great Merchant House.  He was big wig on a mission.
3)  I made it fun for the clan.  I had dozens of PC involved in the process, gathering materials, RPing work on the scaffolds, getting drunk on the skeleton of the frame.

That was my trick.  Get the skill, get the resources, get the manpower, get the Powers That Be to profit and so support it, and make it benefit to as many players as possible.


Seeker

Wow. I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now after being completely slapped down in my attempt.

[Barsook]

He was just lucky then. 

[Kebron]

I think the difference would hinge on the fact that he was 1) A very old character when it happened so he put IC years into doing this and 2) A member of a merchant house specializing in the construction of wagons.
So not impossible, just incredibly difficult and time consuming... Sort of like trying to put together an H3 out of pieces of scrap in a random junkyard by yourself... Sure you can do it, but you'll be 50 by the time its complete.

[drunkendwarf]

I think the difference would hinge on the fact that he was 1) A very old character when it happened so he put IC years into doing this and 2) A member of a merchant house specializing in the construction of wagons.
So not impossible, just incredibly difficult and time consuming... Sort of like trying to put together an H3 out of pieces of scrap in a random junkyard by yourself... Sure you can do it, but you'll be 50 by the time its complete.

Had I been told it was even possible, my character would have put whatever amount of IC time required into making it happen. As would the PC merchant and the others involved. But we were told, flat out, it wasn't going to happen no matter what. We also had access to a space to do this. Granted, we did not have existing know how on building wagons readily available, but we did have the Tan Muark say we were more than welcome to study every inch of their wagon, both in motion and parked, as much as we wished. One would think, over time, we could have developed the know how. And we weren't trying to make some massive wagon. Just a small thing.
I think the main difference is we were a group of independents, and Seeker was with a House. In my fairly long experience on this mud, that pretty well makes the difference for a lot of things.

[Eurynomos]

That is correct.

There is a gigantic stable of vNPC craftsmen and master wagon repairmen and luthiers in the Greater Merchant Houses. As they have huge Argosies to maintain. This plethora of vNPC support represents Staff Support as well.

Independent crews have Staff of their own (Unclanned) but they aren't going to provide resources for you out of thin air. GMH's also don't provide things out of thin air for PC's in their clans. They have to work for it, too.

The life of an Indy crew is one of the toughest in ArmageddonMUD, but I have seen both as a player (and in my brief time as Staff) some of these crews succeed in doing some of the goals deemed impossible or highly improbable by others. They survived, put in the man hours gathering resources/political allies, likely had a great rapport with Staff (and were not hostile or confrontational), and got what they wanted at the end of the day.

[jstorrie]

IIRC, the PCs in the Tuluki militia unit put a battle-wagon together at one point. It was the pet project of a PC Jihaen and it took at least an RL year. I'm not sure if the crafting was done by a PC mastercrafter or if it was done by NPCs. It did eventually get done, but boy were those materials lying around for a looooong time...

The long-and-short of it is that this sort of undertaking requires a ton of busy-work from one or more staff members and you're basically going to have to make an exceptional case in order to get people to do it. That sounds shitty, but that's where we are. The policy is 'no' and if you want to be the exception your case must be exceptional.

[Adhira]

The tuluki wagon was put together by the GMH that specializes in constructing it.  The materials collected were given to that GMH.   
At one point we did have a project in the works to make the wagon making skill usable by pcs, to create cart type wagons, it was never completed.  We have never had any intention to make argosies etc buildable by PCs due to their sheer complexity.   

[drunkendwarf]

That is correct.

There is a gigantic stable of vNPC craftsmen and master wagon repairmen and luthiers in the Greater Merchant Houses. As they have huge Argosies to maintain. This plethora of vNPC support represents Staff Support as well.

Independent crews have Staff of their own (Unclanned) but they aren't going to provide resources for you out of thin air. GMH's also don't provide things out of thin air for PC's in their clans. They have to work for it, too.

The life of an Indy crew is one of the toughest in ArmageddonMUD, but I have seen both as a player (and in my brief time as Staff) some of these crews succeed in doing some of the goals deemed impossible or highly improbable by others. They survived, put in the man hours gathering resources/political allies, likely had a great rapport with Staff (and were not hostile or confrontational), and got what they wanted at the end of the day.

I didn't think I was hostile or confrontational at all in my communication with Vanth. I tried to be helpful and offer up suggestions, and ask intelligent questions that may help to make it happen. And it's hard to "achieve the impossible" when it's staff that's telling you impossible. And none of what you've stated was a reason given to me at the time.
My reason was:

Current policy states that we are not creating unique objects for characters, unless that character is a master crafter of the craft in question.
It is not currently codedly possible to become a master crafter in wagonmaking.

Apparently that needed to read:

Current policy states that we are not creating unique objects for (for independent) characters, unless that character is a master crafter of the craft in question.
It is not currently codedly possible (for independents) to become a master crafter in wagonmaking.

I'm miffed, especially after hearing other PC's have done it. Even getting a "Yeah, this might be possible, but it's going to be really hard without the support of a House" would have been better than the flat out brick wall I was slammed against. Because really..would making a small wagon be flat out impossible under the circumstances I outlined in my request? No. Exceedingly time consuming, sure. Exhaustively hard, yup. Impossible? I don't think it should have been.

[Adhira]

Sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed, right now it is impossible for anyone that is not a member of a GMH, which has special tools, facilities, secret knowledge etc to turn the mass of mekillot bones, bahamet shells, wood and other resources used to create wagons... to create wagons.   The path seeker outlined is still possible, as noted it took him a lot of time, effort and work icly and oocly.