Accomplishments

[hammie2]

Well, bring on the soup of negativity, here comes an innocent thread that will degrade mightily, but here goes.

What I have noticed recently is that whenever someone posts something on the board, it seems that a small group of persons, who I have to believe are likeminded, jump all over them and express negative opinions.  You know who you are so I won't mention names.  I am not flaming anyone, but I believe that the attitudes I see here are carried over ingame which is a sad, sad thing let me tell you.  

I could probably look at rp and tell you who is who on here from how they rp.  My thinking is that perhaps we should all get together to discuss stuff on Saturdays just like the imms have their meetings.  At those meetings, maybe on irc we can discuss topics and learn to be more of a team.  

Negativity and stifling others rp wise, codewise and twinkwise is a nasty nasty concept and a disease.  I think it is time we all got together and behaved like the human beings I hope we are.  

This is a game and by dam I intend to enjoy it.

Negative comments not welcome and will not be responded to.

[Stroker]

I agree with hammie2 (for once   ), and agree that something is definetly different. There has been a significant amount of immortal intervention on the boards, which is not all that great. I think we should just enjoy the game together - how are we going to acomplish this? I have no idea, but I am sure we will. This is a community, and for it to grow we need to work together.

We should all just play the game more, instead of posting on the boards .... yeah that's right.

[hammie2]

Since I have an agreement, I will attempt to actually plan something like this for next saturday.  If anyone is interested in this, let me know so I can actually decide whether I am wasting my time or not.  I can post server information and channel on irc once I find that there will actually be a few people.

[Rindan]

There is already an Armageddon IRC channle.  You might try and use that.  I don't know where it is off the top of my head as I don't use it, but if search in the forums I am sure you could find it.

[hammie2]

I have been on it and there is never actually anything going on to tell the truth.  I actually want things to be discussed there not a bunch of people sitting around and doing nothing.  I actually hung out there for about 3 hours or so and nothing got done.

[DrunkenSalarr]

The fact that nothing happens, and many players and staff are already familiar with it is what makes it the perfet place for you.

All you have to do is Make Somthing Happen.  Just define some points and some rules, as well as some set times, and there you go.

I will not be in attendance, as I don't use IRC (my own choice).

[hammie2]

I am open to having an alternate plan for having the meeting.  If anyone can suggest an alternate forum or so, I would be open to it.  

On the subject of the board, I wish it to be a place where there is no foolish banning, kicking etc, wars and the such.  I would like it to be as friendly as possible and if people are being naughty then we simply silence them.

In other words, the atmosphere is what I want to create and not have a chatroom, but a fairly structured discussion.

-H

[JollyGreenGiant]

Perhaps you could clarify your definition of negativity.  Are you lumping any form of criticism or non-positive statement into the category of negative?  What kind of negative opinions are we talking about here?

In my own opinion, as long as someone can provide some form of reasonable argument or is stating something that is clear, I don't care if it's negative, positive, or both.  If I posted a question asking, for example, if I could emote having a magick steel sword, I'd probably get a good handful of posts saying, "No!"  And so what?  That's all there is to say about it, although it'd be even better if along with a firm negative, someone pointed me to a few docs that explained why that was bad form.  And generally speaking, that already happens.

Or maybe I've got an idea for something.  Garrottes, for example  I got both positive and negative feedback on many, many aspects of that, and I expect one of these days I'll get off my lazy butt and actually submit the idea, but I digress.  The point was, the negative feedback was useful as well as the positive feedback.  If I'd gotten nothing but positive feedback on it, the idea probably would not have been nearly as complete or well-formed as it should be.

For the most part, the moderators are very efficient and consistent about removing flaming, or locking threads that become problematic.  Being told to "die", for example, doesn't really serve much of a useful purpose, or add to a discussion.  I don't see them as much of a problem, however, since the mods catch and delete the majority of those kinds of posts.

So.  You guys (and girls) just keep doin' your thing, man.  As far as I'm concerned, anyway.

[hammie2]

Huh?

[JollyGreenGiant]

Huh?

Um... me?

[crymerci]

Well, someone's got to be the voice of negativity, so it might as well be me.

I don't necessarily want a shiny happy GDB.  Civility is a good thing but I'm not going to bend over backwards to avoid hurting someone's feelings by disagreeing with them and naysaying their ideas.  People have differing opinions.  On everything in the world, all the time.  People are passionate about their  opinions when strongly held.

If people taking a stance opposite yours (being negative) is a major issue for you, maybe you need to grow thicker skin.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Crymerci, that is exactly what I was trying to say, only easier to read.

[DrunkenSalarr]

If people taking a stance opposite yours (being negative) is a major issue for you, maybe you need to grow thicker skin.

Your words bounce off a crymerci's thick skin.

[Frog Fairy]

1) I agree with other posts saying that a cuddly GDB might not be something to strive for. I'm all for a respectful and polite attitude, and an extra patience and tolerance towards new players.
But what really drives this game, ICly, is conflict.
Conflict is the very essence of Armageddon game play.
I do think that the IC conflict would be worse off if all players were joined together in a big happy OOC family, or team, as you write.
I used to play at another RPI where the OOC atmosphere was cuddly and fluffy, and the game play there was a lot less exciting and stimulating.
I definately believe there's a relation.

2) You speak demeaningly of the current IRC channel and say that nothing goes on there. Well, if you really want to create a nice atmosphere, I think knowing each other OOC is the best way to do that. And the best way to get to know each other OOC is to chat, without restrictions, about everything and nothing.
I don't think that everyone being OOC friends would benefit the RP. But if you want that to happen, I think that the IRC channel - along with the OOC board and ISCA (if anyone uses that anymore, too bad 'cause it was great) are the best ways to go.

3) You say that you want a structured discussion, but there already is one - here on the GDB.
One thing I am unclear about after reading your post is why you think that bringing this discussion to a real time forum would construct a better atmosphere.
How and why, precisely, do you expect this would make a difference?

4) One problem for you on the GDB seems to be your own attitude. You begin your post by stating your good purpose which will be soiled by The Negative People. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy and I find it demeaning towards the the posters on this board.
I also have to say I don't really understand your statement of how you recognize people's characters based on what they write on the GDB. It sounds like you personally have a sizeable beef with a certain set of players which you apply both OOC and IC. If the GDB-discussions have affected you in such a manner, then I am honestly sorry to hear that.
I do believe, like crymerci says, that you need a somewhat tough skin to be active here. You shouldn't have to take an endless amount of shit - there are rules, after all - but the culture of these discussions have, at least for the past 6-7 years, been pretty rough and I think that's very hard to change, if at all desirable (see point 1).

5) I don't think that your suggestion is a bad one. It might get interesting, it sounds a lot like the player-staff meetings but without staff.
The unfortunate thing of these type of discussions are that they are very time consuming in comparison to a forum discussions.
I presume you will be moderating it somehow.

I would personally gladly attend such a meeting to see what comes out of it if you arrange one. But I do think it would be a lot more constructive if you did it out of a sense of positivity and fun rather than as some sort of protest against a certain set of players that you don't like (it's what I convey from your post, though I realize that signal might not be intentional).

If you want to change an atmosphere, the best way of doing so is by spreading your own positive, happy vibes around. Don't start out by complaining, just offer something good and fun that people'll gather around. It's psychologically smarter and gives better result, in my experience.

And lastly, if you feel that my post is a negative blurb that makes you uncomfortable reading, consider that I have spent a reasonably large amount of time writing this, for one sole reason: your topic and your thoughts interest me.

[Callisto]

Negative comments not welcome and will not be responded to.

Yeah, but... !!

Aww... I had a good one, too  :cry:

Hammie2 has cooties, pass it on!

[Carnage]

Negative comments not welcome and will not be responded to.

When you say something like that it sounds like you say, "LALALALA, YOU'RE DISAGREEING, I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALALALA!"

Everyone makes mistakes, whether it be accidentally abusing something, doing something twinkish, whatever. When someone tries to correct your mistakes and help you, for fuck's sake, don't start saying you don't want to hear it or getting defensive. Learn from it and as a player.

[Anonymous]

There is a huge difference from getting opposing feed back and just flat out destructive abuse...like your a twink, are you fucking stupid? and that sort of thing.
I believe that is what the person who started this thread means.

There is constructive criticism and there is childish name calling and abuse that does -not- contribute to a discussion.

I agree that both positive and negative feedback is needed, that's what makes a discussion.

[Miee]

I used up all my snark, so I'm just going to say, "What Drunken Salaar said."  and remind you that the channel is an established place, and I'm sure Eatten (or someone else) could work something out with you.

Pop in, talk, see what happens.

[hammie2]

I agree with guest on this.  Positive feedback is always welcome on a whole.  Feedback that is negative or not constructive, it would be nice if accompanying ideas were to be posted along with the negative feedback.  It's a situation where a plane is going down and one dude suggests grabbing a piece of cloth and jumping and hoping it will work like a parachute while the others berate the idea and call it crap but have no opinons of their own about it.  All the time the plane is going down.

At any rate, I appreciate the majority of the discussion so far.

[spawnloser]

hammie, I think you're missing the point...positive feedback is saying, "Great idea!" whereas negative feedback is getting, "I don't like the idea," and then there's useless feedback, "You're dumb."  You don't want the third, but if you try to disallow the second, you'll get the third in abundance.  That's what it sounded like you were asking...which is why you got the response you did...your best bet is just to ask a question and wade through the responses like everyone else.

I do have to agree with everyone else, if we were all good friends, do you honestly think that we'd be 100% comfortable with pkilling our friend's character even when it is IC appropriate?  Probably not.  That's a problem.  I'm not saying don't have friends, but realize that either you're going to be betraying your character IC at times, or pissing off a friend.  Do you really want to do either of these?

[Rindan]

I like negative feedback.  I like it when someone posts an idea or suggesting, and someone tells them that they believe they are wrong, and explains why.  I don't really care if they offer a counter idea.  Some times there is nothing to offer.  Positive feedback is great too, but negative feedback is just as good.  If anything, I find negative feedback to be more useful.  A 'good idea, here is a pat on the back' post generally doesn't do much more then boost my ego.  A 'your idea/opinion is wrong, here is why' on the other hand actually has the opportunity to cause me to change my thinking.  Even if I disagree, I can use negative feedback to further refine my own ideas.  If someone describes how I am wrong, I am forced to reconsider my opinion and account for those instances.  It might lead to refinement or abandonment of the idea, or it might lead to being able to give a good response as to why the idea is still correct despite the negative feedback, and thus further strengthen my argument.  

I would say that the negative feedback on the GDB is the reason why I enjoy the GDB and take the time to read it.  Whenever a thread comes up discussing RP style and how/why a certain style is bad in one person's opinion, it consider it a chance to learn and grow.

I can think of an instance where I preformed an action in game that was sketchy in terms of its RP value.  A person posted about the incident in vague terms and explained why he thought it was poor RP on my part.  I discussion arose, and despite the fact that the post was originally attacking my style, in the end I agreed and modified my style.  The negative comments towards me were one of the most valuable one's I had received.  The positive feedback on occasion is flattering, but does little in the way of helping me to improve.  Hell, if I had one wish, it would be that the imms send me more negative feedback, as the things I do wrong are the things that I seek to change, not the ones I do right.

Finally, I personally think that you are being a tad arrogant to make the claim that you can tell peoples' characters based upon their negative posts.  I generally try and make it a point to not meet people OOCly.  I don't like knowing who I am playing with.  The only time I have ever been able to put a name on the GDB with a character in game has been when they posted in a clan board in a clan that I was in.  In all instances I have been very surprised to find out that their GDB personality is very different from their in game personality and style.

[DrunkenSalarr]

I agree.  Good Post, Rindan.

I would also like to add that postive feedback rarely changes our behavior, while negative feedback, nearly always changes it.

~Drunken Salarr

[hammie2]

As someone posted before, there is negative feedback and there is useless feedback.  Let me address the useless feedback:

Useless feedback IMHO makes the poster look even dumber than we believe they already are which in some cases might not even be possible.  Negative feedback on the other hand which I see tons of should be backed up with something.  Noone likes to see something to the effect that 'your idea is stupid', because it shows a complete lack of:

1.  Tact
2.  Understanding and consideration of others
3.  Common sense to shoot things down yet provide no form of constructive assistance.

So as I was saying before, and I am sure your parents taught you when you were young, If you have nothing useful to say, zip it and do the rest of the world a favor.

P.S.  This was aimed at noone in particular, but if anyone chooses to take it personally, then perhaps it struck a chord.

Anywho, if this topic could be locked, I'd be forever grateful, I think it has run it's course.

[spawnloser]

Ah, trying to get the last word in, eh?  Nay, says I!

Seriously though, I'm still wondering, hammie...are you meaning to clarify that you'd accept negative feedback, just not the useless kind?