So that other thread doesn't get locked, Male and Female Equality

[Cerelum]

I'm totally not trying to cause an arguement here.  But I saw in the other thread...

Gender equality is a rule of Armageddon. Breaking this rule leads to consequences -- Feel free to maintain any RL prejudice you have, as we can't police that. But keep it out of the game.

I always thought this was just "RP Flavor" so that clans and other groups couldn't say, "Get lost bitch, we only hire men for the combat jobs!"

And codedly because there wasn't any difference between men and women in regard to stats and skills of said race/gender.

You aren't allowed to even RP that you think a woman couldn't be stronger then you?  That seems a little narrowminded in a world of witches, monsters and beasts that are all totally unrealistic.

I'm not saying that every male in the game has to be a woman hater, but if the man wants to play it that way, who are you to say he can't?  If you don't like it or feel he's taking it too far, I've met a few women in game who can make him put his mouth on the curb and stomp the shit outta him.  ICA=ICC

[Synthesis]

Roleplaying a man on Zalanthas who honestly believes that a woman couldn't beat him merely because she's a woman is equivalent to a person on Earth believing that a man can give birth to children.

That's how much sense it makes.  Gender equality is a biological fact of the campaign setting.  Your character would be looked upon as completely ridiculous, and probably out of his mind.

[Cerelum]

Roleplaying a man on Zalanthas who honestly believes that a woman couldn't beat him merely because she's a woman is equivalent to a person on Earth believing that a man can give birth to children.

That's how much sense it makes.  Gender equality is a biological fact of the campaign setting.  Your character would be looked upon as completely ridiculous, and probably out of his mind.

I'm not doubting your assessment.  But if the player wants to be a lunatic, let him learn from his mistakes, don't become a douche and start berating him oocly about it.  Send in a player complaint as they always tell me. (though mine tend to get ignored lol)

[Delusion]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm totally not trying to cause an arguement here.  But I saw in the other thread...

Gender equality is a rule of Armageddon. Breaking this rule leads to consequences -- Feel free to maintain any RL prejudice you have, as we can't police that. But keep it out of the game.

I'm not saying that every male in the game has to be a woman hater, but if the man wants to play it that way, who are you to say he can't?

Well...  staff.

Certain types of hate are indeed OOCly banned from the game. I doubt you'll find much use or sympathy arguing against it.

[Cerelum]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

I'm totally with you, i'm not saying it's a RIGHT action, but the way that that Immortal who's name is too weird for me to try and spell, and I'm too lazy to go copy and paste it again, made it sound like it was breaking some massive game rule and he was going to be punished.  That's the only reason I was asking for clarification.

[Riya OniSenshi]

From advanced searching "gender equality" (just the relevant threads):

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40072.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40851.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,21118.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30424.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35999.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19685.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28888.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36628.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35518.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32165.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,15702.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29850.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,23386.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,4794.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30615.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28261.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,21987.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28892.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,10199.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7044.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,20471.0.html

[Delusion]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

I'm totally with you, i'm not saying it's a RIGHT action, but the way that that Immortal who's name is too weird for me to try and spell, and I'm too lazy to go copy and paste it again, made it sound like it was breaking some massive game rule and he was going to be punished.  That's the only reason I was asking for clarification.

Saw that post too, and clarification would be cool. Is this one of those things where it can happen, but the character's a bit of a freak or is it something on a level with an elf riding a mount?

[Marauder Moe]

I assume it's similar to calling someone a f*****t or a n****r.

[Eurynomos]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

I'm totally with you, i'm not saying it's a RIGHT action, but the way that that Immortal who's name is too weird for me to try and spell, and I'm too lazy to go copy and paste it again, made it sound like it was breaking some massive game rule and he was going to be punished.  That's the only reason I was asking for clarification.

If I saw someone being actively sexist, either a man or woman to either sex, I would make a note of it on their account (AKA a consequence). This note wouldn't be negative per se, more calling attention to the fact that they are playing the exception to the rule. I prefer people who play to the docs and rules, rather than the exceptions.

[Maso]

I think there's a difference between playing an 'exception' just because...and when someone plays an 'exception' for very valid, well-thought and documented reasons (in their own bio).

I've seen some really awesome characters who were 'exceptions' in some way. And some rubbish ones too.

The male female equality thing though....I really can't think of a scenario where a man might be brought up (incorrectly) to think that women were weaker. Though it would be perfectly acceptable for a man to think a woman was weaker than him...just not because she's a woman...just because he thinks he's pretty darned strong in general...and maybe she's a bit flimsy looking in general.

[Yam]

Being sexist in Armageddon is like riding mounts as an elf and shows that you don't have a lot of regard for in game documentation. Maybe you should find a different game, Cerelum.

[MeTekillot]

you should tell that to adj too, yam.

[Yam]

I have

[MeTekillot]

well I was actually going to edit that post because I realized it could be seen as me being a jerk but I suppose done is done.

I was going to edit it to include that your characters also shouldn't make jokes about sexuality and stuff that like that are inherently prejudiced or jokes about a certain gender behaving a certain way.

Your girly-girl female merchant shouldn't say "it's a girl thing lol" when that rough-and-tumble hunter at the bar (who happens to be male) asks what the big deal about shoes is.

Your d-elf shouldn't speculate that the d-elves of another tribe act the way they do because they're "taking too many cocks in their asses" (sic) because, hey, most everybody can appreciate that time to time. Well, unless your d-elf tribe has documented prejudice against a certain sexual orientation. Which I'm pretty sure is not even a thing in any tribe anywhere ever. Including the cities.

[Sav]

Note that I am not accusing Cerelum or anyone else in this thread of putting forth this argument. However, as a general rule, whenever anyone argues that OOC prejudice should be acceptable within a game where it has no IC precedent and no IC rationale, it sounds very much as if they are saying:

My personal prejudices about race/sex/sexuality/etc. are so important to me that playing in an imaginary environment that does not allow for those prejudices to be acted upon makes me so uncomfortable that I will now argue that said imaginary environment's cultural mores should be completely ignored or rewritten so that I can say the ugly, shitty things that I believe about women/minorities/gay folk/whatever while in character without major consequences.

If you are confused as to the vehemence with which the gender equality rule is discussed, I suggest that you keep in mind that it is very difficult not to read the above argument as text or subtext to the side arguing in the favor of OOC prejudice being taken IC, and to consider why that might be, and why this rule is enforced so loudly by staff and players.

There are a truly fantastic number of valid and acceptable IC reasons for your character to think another character is fundamentally less worthy/strong/intelligent/valuable/moral/whatever than your character. Their gender or sexual orientation simply isn't one of them.

[Lizzie]

When male PCs start being able to get pregnant, and carry a baby to term, and give vaginal birth, and breastfeed regularly (AC's references to male lactation aside), then men and women in Zalanthas will have no biological difference.

However, they don't, and they can't, and therefore, they do. Males and females have biological, hormonal, and otherwise physiological differences in Zalanthas. There's no getting around it. And as a result, I don't see how it's possible that there exists no male, or female, who would notice those differences, and come up with claims about those differences.

"Why did that Bynner go crazy on your ass, Merchant?"

"Because she has tits. Everyone knows tits make women go crazy sometimes."
"So then how come YOU went crazy on your recruit last week?"

"Because I was right, of COURSE, doh."

I think it makes for fun roleplay.  The staff says otherwise, so I refrain. But it's an imposed limit that I don't agree with.

[Cind]

documented prejudice against a certain sexual orientation. Which I'm pretty sure is not even a thing in any tribe anywhere ever. Including the cities.

Of all my pcs, I've have one which included a vnpc tribe in their background which, due to perceived difference in the creation of the tribe's men and women at the beginning of time (what counts for religion on Zalanthas I think) subtly but definitely upheld women as innately, slightly superior to men. I never pushed these ideals on people; the tribe believed this was the truth for themselves, not for others (who, like I'm sure all tribals believe, aren't as good as the people in their own tribe). The only reason I even remember that pc out of all my tribal pcs is because it was my tribal exception.

I'd like to ask right now because I don't know: with regards to gender inequality, how crazy are pcs' tribals allowed to be? Or did I do something wrong?

[Cerelum]

Being sexist in Armageddon is like riding mounts as an elf and shows that you don't have a lot of regard for in game documentation. Maybe you should find a different game, Cerelum.

Note that I am not accusing Cerelum or anyone else in this thread of putting forth this argument. However, as a general rule, whenever anyone argues that OOC prejudice should be acceptable within a game where it has no IC precedent and no IC rationale, it sounds very much as if they are saying:

My personal prejudices about race/sex/sexuality/etc. are so important to me that playing in an imaginary environment that does not allow for those prejudices to be acted upon makes me so uncomfortable that I will now argue that said imaginary environment's cultural mores should be completely ignored or rewritten so that I can say the ugly, shitty things that I believe about women/minorities/gay folk/whatever while in character without major consequences.

If you are confused as to the vehemence with which the gender equality rule is discussed, I suggest that you keep in mind that it is very difficult not to read the above argument as text or subtext to the side arguing in the favor of OOC prejudice being taken IC, and to consider why that might be, and why this rule is enforced so loudly by staff and players.

There are a truly fantastic number of valid and acceptable IC reasons for your character to think another character is fundamentally less worthy/strong/intelligent/valuable/moral/whatever than your character. Their gender or sexual orientation simply isn't one of them.

I think you both are taking this out of context, I have a shitton of notes on my account probably more bad then good, but I've never played a sexist character.

My point is if I one day WANT to play a sexists character who I understand will be regarded as FUCKING BAT SHIT INSANE, that should be my choice as I've decided to make my character that way.

I personally don't care if your gay, straight, you like to fuck stuffed animals (what's that called, plushy?) or whatever.

I think it makes for fun roleplay.  The staff says otherwise, so I refrain. But it's an imposed limit that I don't agree with.

This is just another in my opinion (not flaming or anything so don't go and ban me again for expressing my OPINION) example of why the world is so riddled and crippled by political correctness.  Even our imaginary fun games where we hack each other up with bone swords, cast spells and otherwise do incredible things is sidelined because there is that chance that say one group of people may be offended by X or Y.

Political correctness is an oversensitive's crutch.

But hey, I was just curious actually, do what you do, but I know I'll probably be that one guy to send you kudos if you roleplay a bigot well, just sayin.

[Rhyden]

Is this even an issue? Do we even need a new thread discussing this? There is no gender discrimination in Arm. Period. Males and females are equal in every way minus their physical traits. Period. If you're having difficulty with this concept, here's a good rule of thumb: treat men the same way you would treat women and treat women the same way you would men. It's really not that difficult.

[marko]

And codedly because there wasn't any difference between men and women in regard to stats and skills of said race/gender.

You aren't allowed to even RP that you think a woman couldn't be stronger then you?  That seems a little narrowminded in a world of witches, monsters and beasts that are all totally unrealistic.

Let me put it this way:  there is no basis for that thought even happening.  There are no situations where women are weaker than males.

If there are no situations.  If there are no social beliefs.  If there are no genetic differences in terms of physical strength.  Then how in the world would a person come up with specifically targeting women for such a belief?  They wouldn't.

The idea simply wouldn't germinate if you are playing a character correctly.  As such, doing it is completely out of character and out of whack with the world.  Your character may as well believe that dwarves are hairy, elves ride kanks, and half-elves are augmented humans.

There is no reason at all to go this route.  None.  I, personally, think it is terrible roleplaying if someone does this and this is one of those few times I would actually report any player who did this as a complaint to staff.

It is wrong to play like this.  Period.

[Yam]

Dick jokes are fine. Dicks are funny and can be laughed at. Boob jokes are fine. Boobs are funny and can be laughed at. Pregnancy jokes are fine. Pregnancy is funny and can be laughed at.

There are differences between male and female genders. You can totally note them.

In Zalanthas, there is usually* no difference in male and female ability. You cannot note it. If your character does, they are usually* going against documentation and social mores in a very obvious and unnatural way.

*There are some Zalanthan cultures that have distinct differences between males and females. The most obvious being Tuluki templar sects. Some tribes also have distinctions. If you're from Allanak or another culture that sees no cultural difference between the sexes, take this in character. It'd be weird to an Allanaki that Tulukis have two templar sects. Tribes are weird, because some of them have gender specified roles.

This doesn't mean that a Tuluki will say males are better fighters than females because Jihaeans are better fighters than Lirathans. That is limited to the templar sects. Unless directly noted by documentation, females and males in Zalanthas have exactly the same range of ability, personality, intelligence, et cetera.

There are girly girls and manly men and everything in between. You can make fun of a dainty man or a coarse woman. You can make fun of a dainty woman or a coarse man. React to personality, not gender.  It's actually pretty hard to disassociate personality types with gender, but you should make a concerted effort to do so.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't understand why it's so difficult to just not do it.

[Yam]

Being sexist in Armageddon is like riding mounts as an elf and shows that you don't have a lot of regard for in game documentation. Maybe you should find a different game, Cerelum.

Note that I am not accusing Cerelum or anyone else in this thread of putting forth this argument. However, as a general rule, whenever anyone argues that OOC prejudice should be acceptable within a game where it has no IC precedent and no IC rationale, it sounds very much as if they are saying:

My personal prejudices about race/sex/sexuality/etc. are so important to me that playing in an imaginary environment that does not allow for those prejudices to be acted upon makes me so uncomfortable that I will now argue that said imaginary environment's cultural mores should be completely ignored or rewritten so that I can say the ugly, shitty things that I believe about women/minorities/gay folk/whatever while in character without major consequences.

If you are confused as to the vehemence with which the gender equality rule is discussed, I suggest that you keep in mind that it is very difficult not to read the above argument as text or subtext to the side arguing in the favor of OOC prejudice being taken IC, and to consider why that might be, and why this rule is enforced so loudly by staff and players.

There are a truly fantastic number of valid and acceptable IC reasons for your character to think another character is fundamentally less worthy/strong/intelligent/valuable/moral/whatever than your character. Their gender or sexual orientation simply isn't one of them.

I think you both are taking this out of context, I have a shitton of notes on my account probably more bad then good, but I've never played a sexist character.

My point is if I one day WANT to play a sexists character who I understand will be regarded as FUCKING BAT SHIT INSANE, that should be my choice as I've decided to make my character that way.

I personally don't care if your gay, straight, you like to fuck stuffed animals (what's that called, plushy?) or whatever.

I think it makes for fun roleplay.  The staff says otherwise, so I refrain. But it's an imposed limit that I don't agree with.

This is just another in my opinion (not flaming or anything so don't go and ban me again for expressing my OPINION) example of why the world is so riddled and crippled by political correctness.  Even our imaginary fun games where we hack each other up with bone swords, cast spells and otherwise do incredible things is sidelined because there is that chance that say one group of people may be offended by X or Y.

Political correctness is an oversensitive's crutch.

But hey, I was just curious actually, do what you do, but I know I'll probably be that one guy to send you kudos if you roleplay a bigot well, just sayin.

Yeah no sorry the purpose of this thread is pretty transparent.

[Is Friday]

I have having a conversation with an intelligent individual the other night about sexuality in game.

In my experience, and maybe in others' experience as well:

When you objectify a man and laud him for his sexuality, i.e. sexiness, or treat him like one to be desired, it does not detract from their ability to command respect in positions of social power/influence.

If you objectify a woman and laud her for her sexuality, i.e. sexiness, or treat her like one to be desired, it detracts from her ability to command respect in positions of social power/influence.

I feel like men cannot be trivialized IG for being sought after, yet women can be. Maybe this is me placing my stereotypes IG, but that is simply how I feel after having played a couple of women in positions of authority. Either you go with it and allow yourself to be objectified and become "that one girl" or you go the complete opposite way. It just seems like a much more difficult set of hoops to leap through, when exercising social influence/power. A woman just is not respected like a man would be when they stand firm on an issue or be an asshole.

It definitely bothered me and still bothers me when I see this happen. That is inequality that tangibly exists IG right now and it is always an uphill battle for females in authority billets.