So that other thread doesn't get locked, Male and Female Equality

[Cerelum]

I'm totally not trying to cause an arguement here.  But I saw in the other thread...

Gender equality is a rule of Armageddon. Breaking this rule leads to consequences -- Feel free to maintain any RL prejudice you have, as we can't police that. But keep it out of the game.

I always thought this was just "RP Flavor" so that clans and other groups couldn't say, "Get lost bitch, we only hire men for the combat jobs!"

And codedly because there wasn't any difference between men and women in regard to stats and skills of said race/gender.

You aren't allowed to even RP that you think a woman couldn't be stronger then you?  That seems a little narrowminded in a world of witches, monsters and beasts that are all totally unrealistic.

I'm not saying that every male in the game has to be a woman hater, but if the man wants to play it that way, who are you to say he can't?  If you don't like it or feel he's taking it too far, I've met a few women in game who can make him put his mouth on the curb and stomp the shit outta him.  ICA=ICC

[Synthesis]

Roleplaying a man on Zalanthas who honestly believes that a woman couldn't beat him merely because she's a woman is equivalent to a person on Earth believing that a man can give birth to children.

That's how much sense it makes.  Gender equality is a biological fact of the campaign setting.  Your character would be looked upon as completely ridiculous, and probably out of his mind.

[Cerelum]

Roleplaying a man on Zalanthas who honestly believes that a woman couldn't beat him merely because she's a woman is equivalent to a person on Earth believing that a man can give birth to children.

That's how much sense it makes.  Gender equality is a biological fact of the campaign setting.  Your character would be looked upon as completely ridiculous, and probably out of his mind.

I'm not doubting your assessment.  But if the player wants to be a lunatic, let him learn from his mistakes, don't become a douche and start berating him oocly about it.  Send in a player complaint as they always tell me. (though mine tend to get ignored lol)

[Delusion]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm totally not trying to cause an arguement here.  But I saw in the other thread...

Gender equality is a rule of Armageddon. Breaking this rule leads to consequences -- Feel free to maintain any RL prejudice you have, as we can't police that. But keep it out of the game.

I'm not saying that every male in the game has to be a woman hater, but if the man wants to play it that way, who are you to say he can't?

Well...  staff.

Certain types of hate are indeed OOCly banned from the game. I doubt you'll find much use or sympathy arguing against it.

[Cerelum]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

I'm totally with you, i'm not saying it's a RIGHT action, but the way that that Immortal who's name is too weird for me to try and spell, and I'm too lazy to go copy and paste it again, made it sound like it was breaking some massive game rule and he was going to be punished.  That's the only reason I was asking for clarification.

[Riya OniSenshi]

From advanced searching "gender equality" (just the relevant threads):

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40072.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,40851.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,21118.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30424.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35999.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,19685.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28888.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36628.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35518.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32165.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,15702.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29850.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,23386.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,4794.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30615.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28261.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,21987.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28892.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,10199.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7044.0.html
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,20471.0.html

[Delusion]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

I'm totally with you, i'm not saying it's a RIGHT action, but the way that that Immortal who's name is too weird for me to try and spell, and I'm too lazy to go copy and paste it again, made it sound like it was breaking some massive game rule and he was going to be punished.  That's the only reason I was asking for clarification.

Saw that post too, and clarification would be cool. Is this one of those things where it can happen, but the character's a bit of a freak or is it something on a level with an elf riding a mount?

[Marauder Moe]

I assume it's similar to calling someone a f*****t or a n****r.

[Eurynomos]

If a man wants to act like that, and state, for example, that no woman could possibly be stronger than him (rather than nobody at all could be stronger), he could. Everyone around him should like at him like he's a complete moron, however, since, in the setting, people of both genders are equally capable in all things and this is commonly known and accepted by all Zalanthans. Similarly, if a woman wants to act like that, she can too, and in that case, everyone around her should look at her like she's crazy, too.

Just as long as the player is aware that their character is the odd one out in any such case. If that makes sense.

I'm totally with you, i'm not saying it's a RIGHT action, but the way that that Immortal who's name is too weird for me to try and spell, and I'm too lazy to go copy and paste it again, made it sound like it was breaking some massive game rule and he was going to be punished.  That's the only reason I was asking for clarification.

If I saw someone being actively sexist, either a man or woman to either sex, I would make a note of it on their account (AKA a consequence). This note wouldn't be negative per se, more calling attention to the fact that they are playing the exception to the rule. I prefer people who play to the docs and rules, rather than the exceptions.

[Maso]

I think there's a difference between playing an 'exception' just because...and when someone plays an 'exception' for very valid, well-thought and documented reasons (in their own bio).

I've seen some really awesome characters who were 'exceptions' in some way. And some rubbish ones too.

The male female equality thing though....I really can't think of a scenario where a man might be brought up (incorrectly) to think that women were weaker. Though it would be perfectly acceptable for a man to think a woman was weaker than him...just not because she's a woman...just because he thinks he's pretty darned strong in general...and maybe she's a bit flimsy looking in general.

[Yam]

Being sexist in Armageddon is like riding mounts as an elf and shows that you don't have a lot of regard for in game documentation. Maybe you should find a different game, Cerelum.

[MeTekillot]

you should tell that to adj too, yam.

[Yam]

I have

[MeTekillot]

well I was actually going to edit that post because I realized it could be seen as me being a jerk but I suppose done is done.

I was going to edit it to include that your characters also shouldn't make jokes about sexuality and stuff that like that are inherently prejudiced or jokes about a certain gender behaving a certain way.

Your girly-girl female merchant shouldn't say "it's a girl thing lol" when that rough-and-tumble hunter at the bar (who happens to be male) asks what the big deal about shoes is.

Your d-elf shouldn't speculate that the d-elves of another tribe act the way they do because they're "taking too many cocks in their asses" (sic) because, hey, most everybody can appreciate that time to time. Well, unless your d-elf tribe has documented prejudice against a certain sexual orientation. Which I'm pretty sure is not even a thing in any tribe anywhere ever. Including the cities.

[Sav]

Note that I am not accusing Cerelum or anyone else in this thread of putting forth this argument. However, as a general rule, whenever anyone argues that OOC prejudice should be acceptable within a game where it has no IC precedent and no IC rationale, it sounds very much as if they are saying:

My personal prejudices about race/sex/sexuality/etc. are so important to me that playing in an imaginary environment that does not allow for those prejudices to be acted upon makes me so uncomfortable that I will now argue that said imaginary environment's cultural mores should be completely ignored or rewritten so that I can say the ugly, shitty things that I believe about women/minorities/gay folk/whatever while in character without major consequences.

If you are confused as to the vehemence with which the gender equality rule is discussed, I suggest that you keep in mind that it is very difficult not to read the above argument as text or subtext to the side arguing in the favor of OOC prejudice being taken IC, and to consider why that might be, and why this rule is enforced so loudly by staff and players.

There are a truly fantastic number of valid and acceptable IC reasons for your character to think another character is fundamentally less worthy/strong/intelligent/valuable/moral/whatever than your character. Their gender or sexual orientation simply isn't one of them.

[Lizzie]

When male PCs start being able to get pregnant, and carry a baby to term, and give vaginal birth, and breastfeed regularly (AC's references to male lactation aside), then men and women in Zalanthas will have no biological difference.

However, they don't, and they can't, and therefore, they do. Males and females have biological, hormonal, and otherwise physiological differences in Zalanthas. There's no getting around it. And as a result, I don't see how it's possible that there exists no male, or female, who would notice those differences, and come up with claims about those differences.

"Why did that Bynner go crazy on your ass, Merchant?"

"Because she has tits. Everyone knows tits make women go crazy sometimes."
"So then how come YOU went crazy on your recruit last week?"

"Because I was right, of COURSE, doh."

I think it makes for fun roleplay.  The staff says otherwise, so I refrain. But it's an imposed limit that I don't agree with.

[Cind]

documented prejudice against a certain sexual orientation. Which I'm pretty sure is not even a thing in any tribe anywhere ever. Including the cities.

Of all my pcs, I've have one which included a vnpc tribe in their background which, due to perceived difference in the creation of the tribe's men and women at the beginning of time (what counts for religion on Zalanthas I think) subtly but definitely upheld women as innately, slightly superior to men. I never pushed these ideals on people; the tribe believed this was the truth for themselves, not for others (who, like I'm sure all tribals believe, aren't as good as the people in their own tribe). The only reason I even remember that pc out of all my tribal pcs is because it was my tribal exception.

I'd like to ask right now because I don't know: with regards to gender inequality, how crazy are pcs' tribals allowed to be? Or did I do something wrong?

[Cerelum]

Being sexist in Armageddon is like riding mounts as an elf and shows that you don't have a lot of regard for in game documentation. Maybe you should find a different game, Cerelum.

Note that I am not accusing Cerelum or anyone else in this thread of putting forth this argument. However, as a general rule, whenever anyone argues that OOC prejudice should be acceptable within a game where it has no IC precedent and no IC rationale, it sounds very much as if they are saying:

My personal prejudices about race/sex/sexuality/etc. are so important to me that playing in an imaginary environment that does not allow for those prejudices to be acted upon makes me so uncomfortable that I will now argue that said imaginary environment's cultural mores should be completely ignored or rewritten so that I can say the ugly, shitty things that I believe about women/minorities/gay folk/whatever while in character without major consequences.

If you are confused as to the vehemence with which the gender equality rule is discussed, I suggest that you keep in mind that it is very difficult not to read the above argument as text or subtext to the side arguing in the favor of OOC prejudice being taken IC, and to consider why that might be, and why this rule is enforced so loudly by staff and players.

There are a truly fantastic number of valid and acceptable IC reasons for your character to think another character is fundamentally less worthy/strong/intelligent/valuable/moral/whatever than your character. Their gender or sexual orientation simply isn't one of them.

I think you both are taking this out of context, I have a shitton of notes on my account probably more bad then good, but I've never played a sexist character.

My point is if I one day WANT to play a sexists character who I understand will be regarded as FUCKING BAT SHIT INSANE, that should be my choice as I've decided to make my character that way.

I personally don't care if your gay, straight, you like to fuck stuffed animals (what's that called, plushy?) or whatever.

I think it makes for fun roleplay.  The staff says otherwise, so I refrain. But it's an imposed limit that I don't agree with.

This is just another in my opinion (not flaming or anything so don't go and ban me again for expressing my OPINION) example of why the world is so riddled and crippled by political correctness.  Even our imaginary fun games where we hack each other up with bone swords, cast spells and otherwise do incredible things is sidelined because there is that chance that say one group of people may be offended by X or Y.

Political correctness is an oversensitive's crutch.

But hey, I was just curious actually, do what you do, but I know I'll probably be that one guy to send you kudos if you roleplay a bigot well, just sayin.

[Rhyden]

Is this even an issue? Do we even need a new thread discussing this? There is no gender discrimination in Arm. Period. Males and females are equal in every way minus their physical traits. Period. If you're having difficulty with this concept, here's a good rule of thumb: treat men the same way you would treat women and treat women the same way you would men. It's really not that difficult.

[marko]

And codedly because there wasn't any difference between men and women in regard to stats and skills of said race/gender.

You aren't allowed to even RP that you think a woman couldn't be stronger then you?  That seems a little narrowminded in a world of witches, monsters and beasts that are all totally unrealistic.

Let me put it this way:  there is no basis for that thought even happening.  There are no situations where women are weaker than males.

If there are no situations.  If there are no social beliefs.  If there are no genetic differences in terms of physical strength.  Then how in the world would a person come up with specifically targeting women for such a belief?  They wouldn't.

The idea simply wouldn't germinate if you are playing a character correctly.  As such, doing it is completely out of character and out of whack with the world.  Your character may as well believe that dwarves are hairy, elves ride kanks, and half-elves are augmented humans.

There is no reason at all to go this route.  None.  I, personally, think it is terrible roleplaying if someone does this and this is one of those few times I would actually report any player who did this as a complaint to staff.

It is wrong to play like this.  Period.

[Yam]

Dick jokes are fine. Dicks are funny and can be laughed at. Boob jokes are fine. Boobs are funny and can be laughed at. Pregnancy jokes are fine. Pregnancy is funny and can be laughed at.

There are differences between male and female genders. You can totally note them.

In Zalanthas, there is usually* no difference in male and female ability. You cannot note it. If your character does, they are usually* going against documentation and social mores in a very obvious and unnatural way.

*There are some Zalanthan cultures that have distinct differences between males and females. The most obvious being Tuluki templar sects. Some tribes also have distinctions. If you're from Allanak or another culture that sees no cultural difference between the sexes, take this in character. It'd be weird to an Allanaki that Tulukis have two templar sects. Tribes are weird, because some of them have gender specified roles.

This doesn't mean that a Tuluki will say males are better fighters than females because Jihaeans are better fighters than Lirathans. That is limited to the templar sects. Unless directly noted by documentation, females and males in Zalanthas have exactly the same range of ability, personality, intelligence, et cetera.

There are girly girls and manly men and everything in between. You can make fun of a dainty man or a coarse woman. You can make fun of a dainty woman or a coarse man. React to personality, not gender.  It's actually pretty hard to disassociate personality types with gender, but you should make a concerted effort to do so.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't understand why it's so difficult to just not do it.

[Yam]

Being sexist in Armageddon is like riding mounts as an elf and shows that you don't have a lot of regard for in game documentation. Maybe you should find a different game, Cerelum.

Note that I am not accusing Cerelum or anyone else in this thread of putting forth this argument. However, as a general rule, whenever anyone argues that OOC prejudice should be acceptable within a game where it has no IC precedent and no IC rationale, it sounds very much as if they are saying:

My personal prejudices about race/sex/sexuality/etc. are so important to me that playing in an imaginary environment that does not allow for those prejudices to be acted upon makes me so uncomfortable that I will now argue that said imaginary environment's cultural mores should be completely ignored or rewritten so that I can say the ugly, shitty things that I believe about women/minorities/gay folk/whatever while in character without major consequences.

If you are confused as to the vehemence with which the gender equality rule is discussed, I suggest that you keep in mind that it is very difficult not to read the above argument as text or subtext to the side arguing in the favor of OOC prejudice being taken IC, and to consider why that might be, and why this rule is enforced so loudly by staff and players.

There are a truly fantastic number of valid and acceptable IC reasons for your character to think another character is fundamentally less worthy/strong/intelligent/valuable/moral/whatever than your character. Their gender or sexual orientation simply isn't one of them.

I think you both are taking this out of context, I have a shitton of notes on my account probably more bad then good, but I've never played a sexist character.

My point is if I one day WANT to play a sexists character who I understand will be regarded as FUCKING BAT SHIT INSANE, that should be my choice as I've decided to make my character that way.

I personally don't care if your gay, straight, you like to fuck stuffed animals (what's that called, plushy?) or whatever.

I think it makes for fun roleplay.  The staff says otherwise, so I refrain. But it's an imposed limit that I don't agree with.

This is just another in my opinion (not flaming or anything so don't go and ban me again for expressing my OPINION) example of why the world is so riddled and crippled by political correctness.  Even our imaginary fun games where we hack each other up with bone swords, cast spells and otherwise do incredible things is sidelined because there is that chance that say one group of people may be offended by X or Y.

Political correctness is an oversensitive's crutch.

But hey, I was just curious actually, do what you do, but I know I'll probably be that one guy to send you kudos if you roleplay a bigot well, just sayin.

Yeah no sorry the purpose of this thread is pretty transparent.

[Is Friday]

I have having a conversation with an intelligent individual the other night about sexuality in game.

In my experience, and maybe in others' experience as well:

When you objectify a man and laud him for his sexuality, i.e. sexiness, or treat him like one to be desired, it does not detract from their ability to command respect in positions of social power/influence.

If you objectify a woman and laud her for her sexuality, i.e. sexiness, or treat her like one to be desired, it detracts from her ability to command respect in positions of social power/influence.

I feel like men cannot be trivialized IG for being sought after, yet women can be. Maybe this is me placing my stereotypes IG, but that is simply how I feel after having played a couple of women in positions of authority. Either you go with it and allow yourself to be objectified and become "that one girl" or you go the complete opposite way. It just seems like a much more difficult set of hoops to leap through, when exercising social influence/power. A woman just is not respected like a man would be when they stand firm on an issue or be an asshole.

It definitely bothered me and still bothers me when I see this happen. That is inequality that tangibly exists IG right now and it is always an uphill battle for females in authority billets.

[Yam]

I agree. It also seems that female PCs in positions of authority have more resistance than male counterparts. I don't really know how to address this on the GDB other than say that I, as a player, will try to police myself on this.

[Cerelum]

Yeah no sorry the purpose of this thread is pretty transparent.

The purpose of this thread was eye opening and thought about an aspect of play.

If you think it's something more you're missing the point.

[Yam]

What?

[Cerelum]

What?

From reading your posts for years on here I know you're not that stupid.

So I'm going to ignore this attempt at trolling.  Good day.

[Marauder Moe]

I dunno,  there's a lot of things you're not allowed to play in Armageddon.  Why do people get hung up on this one in particular so often?

[Is Friday]

RL is one thing. I already exist in an environment where I have to deal with dummies sitting on the couch hypothesizing to their Congress Rep that "women should be allowed into combat ops" despite their only vague idea of female success in my field is "Well, momma said women had equal rights, so...." Women are going through 'testing' right now in the armed forces to see if they can deal with the rigors of infantry work, and I have to tell you from my experience with females--it's not looking good. Great, females get an opportunity to be treated fairly... but will they perform at the level required to meet the mission? Who knows. Hell, women are still given a "handicap" for their fitness tests. Women can run 3 minutes slower on their 3 mile and not do a single pull up yet still score the same as a male. Then there's all of those psychological issues we'd have to deal with, not only amongst the females... but especially amongst the males now that they were fighting alongside females. It's going to be a long process (if done right) and carefully implemented (if ever.)

That's all well and good for the real world, but this game is designed without limitations based on sex. This is for playability. It's a fantasy game. There's a lot of great female players that play to the documentation a lot better than males. And frankly: This game is about playing to documentation, not about bringing in your own contrived ideas about the culture.

I can't tell you how many times I've become frustrated at another player because they, instead of referencing documentation as their primary source for personality/action, decided to pick up something they thought would be cool/funny out of a RL stereotype. I think everybody is guilty of that, including myself, to some regard.

Sexism does not belong in this game. Don't try to put it in here.

[Yam]

What?

From reading your posts for years on here I know you're not that stupid.

So I'm going to ignore this attempt at trolling.  Good day.

No I just didn't parse the sentences you wrote because they are grammatically faulty and barely make sense. Going by your OP, I think this thread is about you lamenting your inability to play a misogynist and a gripe about political correctness in general. You try to suggest that the ridicule of an Armageddon character thinking women are weaker than men is stifling to your roleplay. That's it.

So far you have only talked about being unable to say that women are weaker than men or play a misogynist. There is nothing eye opening here. I don't know what your thought about aspect of play is, other than wanting to play a misogynistic character against the documentation.

If there is any other point to this thread, you haven't made it.

[Cind]

I dunno,  there's a lot of things you're not allowed to play in Armageddon.  Why do people get hung up on this one in particular so often?

Part of it seems to be, like IsFriday said in an earlier post, socially women are equals, but some inequality still lies under the surface and in our subconscious, so that we sometimes act sexist and don't know it; it has been proven repeatedly, for just one example, that women are interrupted while talking with much greater frequency than men; and some of that inevitably leaks into the game; and occasionally someone notices a difference in the treatment of a male versus a female pc that was, in all likelihood, never intended.

[Cerelum]

What?

From reading your posts for years on here I know you're not that stupid.

So I'm going to ignore this attempt at trolling.  Good day.

No I just didn't parse the sentences you wrote because they are grammatically faulty and barely make sense. Going by your OP, I think this thread is about you lamenting your inability to play a misogynist and a gripe about political correctness in general. You try to suggest that the ridicule of an Armageddon character thinking women are weaker than men is stifling to your roleplay. That's it.

So far you have only talked about being unable to say that women are weaker than men or play a misogynist. There is nothing eye opening here. I don't know what your thought about aspect of play is, other than wanting to play a misogynistic character against the documentation.

If there is any other point to this thread, you haven't made it.

You must have missed the point when I said I never played a sexist in the game.

[Yam]

Do you want to?

[Cerelum]

Do you want to?

Not particularly and not as a real character, but say I'm just creating a throw away, I would like to play up the concept till he was murdered.

[Marauder Moe]

I dunno,  there's a lot of things you're not allowed to play in Armageddon.  Why do people get hung up on this one in particular so often?

Part of it seems to be, like IsFriday said in an earlier post, socially women are equals, but some inequality still lies under the surface and in our subconscious, so that we sometimes act sexist and don't know it; it has been proven repeatedly, for just one example, that women are interrupted while talking with much greater frequency than men; and some of that inevitably leaks into the game; and occasionally someone notices a difference in the treatment of a male versus a female pc that was, in all likelihood, never intended.

Well, that was really a rhetorical question.   My point is that it's silly for people to get upset that they can't play a misogynist, but not that they can't play a cyborg or a dinosaur.

Cyborgs and dinosaurs would be way more fun, IMO.

[Cerelum]

Well, that was really a rhetorical question.   My point is that it's silly for people to get upset that they can't play a misogynist, but not that they can't play a cyborg or a dinosaur.

Cyborgs and dinosaurs would be way more fun, IMO.

Now I'm upset I can't play a dinosaur or a cyborg. 

[Is Friday]

Do you want to?

Not particularly and not as a real character, but say I'm just creating a throw away, I would like to play up the concept till he was murdered.

So you just want to troll people IG with some misogyny and then roll out? Great contribution to the game.

[BadSkeelz]

Not to mention to being unable to play a sexist cyborg. Feckin' tyranny is what it is.

I feel like men cannot be trivialized IG for being sought after

I PKed someone because he was sexy and sought after. Haven't done it to a woman yet, though. Am I sexist? 

[Is Friday]

I PKed someone because he was sexy and sought after. Haven't done it to a woman yet, though. Am I sexist?  

No. That seems like equal opportunity to me.

[Cerelum]

Do you want to?

Not particularly and not as a real character, but say I'm just creating a throw away, I would like to play up the concept till he was murdered.

So you just want to troll people IG with some misogyny and then roll out? Great contribution to the game.

Oh please.  You never made a character with no real direction in the game?  I recently made a merchant in allanak who didn't use his merchant skills once but preached about the Highlord all the time, telling people they were sinners and all that shit.

I had no intention of him living long, he was just for flavor.  THAT'S what I'm talking about with throw aways.

[Is Friday]

So your "flavor" to enrich the game world is "flavor" not found in the documentation?

Why don't you submit an application for a Thunder Cat instead?

[Yam]

Do you want to?

Not particularly and not as a real character, but say I'm just creating a throw away, I would like to play up the concept till he was murdered.

Playing a throw-away concept like that, or any other that goes against documentation, cheapens and damages the game. It's the same as playing an elf that rides mounts, a dwarf with no focus, or a human with no prejudices. It's actually worse, as the no sexism thing is part of the universal documentation of the game. If you want to play something like that, go play somewhere else without the documentation.

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.

Fuckin' don't do it.

[Schrodingers Cat]

You'll know there's gender equality in Zalanthas when you see a bunch of men women gathered around the bar swooning over some scantily clad silken haired gal dude that's just sitting there trying to enjoy her his drink in peace.

[BadSkeelz]

You'll know there's gender equality in Zalanthas when you see a bunch of men women gathered around the bar swooning over some scantily clad silken haired gal dude that's just sitting there trying to enjoy her his drink in peace.

Been there.

[KankWhisperer]

I'd be happier if an equal amount of women characters were aggressive muscle bound retards and an equal amount of male characters were merchants/aides/frilly. But it never seems to exactly work out that way.

[Cutthroat]

If you go around asking women broads to go make you a sandwich flatbread wrap, you will be looked upon as insane at best, and needing killin' at worst. Is it against the rules specifically? I don't think so, but it does go against the general spirit of the game.

There are far better ways to add to the game than play the one person that hates all women/men in a world where sexism as we know it IRL does not and should not exist. Especially considering all the other biases that do exist and are supported heavily in the documentation. If you're looking to play a controversial or divisive character, pick one of the many likes or hatreds that are actually in the docs and push that to its limit. They don't get nearly as much loving as they should.

[Eurynomos]

As Yam pointed out in his quote of the rules above, it is technically against the rules. Sexism is not allowed on ArmageddonMUD. Using someone's gender as a means to stereotype or for prejudice goes against this.

[Cutthroat]

Yam's quote is actually from the Quickstart, not the Rules - which I think is a part of the confusion here. It is pretty clear, though, that sexism as described in the quickstart simply would not exist.

Edit to add: However, the rules state "If you choose not to roleplay, or play your character outside the bounds of roleplay" then you could be punished. I think that playing a sexist PC would be outside the bounds of roleplay since it was established that sexism is non-existent.

[Cerelum]

I think this needs updated.

help rules
Armageddon                                                         (Newbie)

  The world of Armageddon MUD is known as Zalanthas. It is a harsh desert
planet where only the very fittest survive, and competition over extremely
scarce resources causes constant strife and bloodshed. In Armageddon, a few
things will be apparent:

1. Role-playing is _central_ to the environment--it is not considered an
   option by the creators of the world, it is a strict requirement. If you
   do not want to role-play, please go elsewhere.

2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
   free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
   you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
   only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
   the end of their careers.

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
   mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
   killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
   exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
   both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.

4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
   your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
   See point 2 above.

5. The sole exception to the above is what we call 'the rule of consent'.
   You can be as mean and nasty to other players as you like, but they do
   have some measure of control over how graphic the depiction is.  If
   someone is emoting to a degree which you find bothersome, you can OOC
   for them to stop, and to presume that the action took place offstage.
   This is intended for adult situations, such as torture or rape, which
   some players may not wish to witness in vivid detail.  If you engage
   in a graphic scene that another player did not consent to, and if that
   player complains to the account, you will be banned.  For more details,
   see the helpfile for CONSENT.

6. Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
   barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
   he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one


[MORE]

   of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
   a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
   imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
   own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
   truly whatever you can imagine occurring.

7. Only ONE living character per player is allowed at a time.  If you
   attempt to circumvent this rule by making multiple accounts, you will
   be banned for a month after the first occurence, and banned permanently
   after the second.

8. No botting (running a script or other functionality to completely
   automate your character's actions).  The point of this game is to
   play the game for role-play.  If you don't want to play it yourself,
   go somewhere else.  First occurrence will get you a warning.  Second
   infraction will get the character stored.  Third will get you a
   seven day ban.  You will be banned permanently if it happens again.

To play Armageddon MUD, simply connect via telnet to:

  ginka.armageddon.org 4050

Armageddon MUD's official web page is at:

  http://www.armageddon.org/

  If your Internet access utilities don't handle names, or if there seems
to be a problem with your local DNS, then you can direct your utilities to
the following IP address:

  64.252.79.51

All official correspondence should be sent via e-mail to:

  mud@ginka.armageddon.org

See also:
  clans, consent, death, geography, guilds, faq, help, help character,
  help newbie, karma, languages, magick, measurement, races, roleplaying,
  shops, time, wish, zalanthas

How about just making sexism another consentable piece.

[Lizzie]

If you go around asking women broads to go make you a sandwich flatbread wrap, you will be looked upon as insane at best, and needing killin' at worst. Is it against the rules specifically? I don't think so, but it does go against the general spirit of the game.

There are far better ways to add to the game than play the one person that hates all women/men in a world where sexism as we know it IRL does not and should not exist. Especially considering all the other biases that do exist and are supported heavily in the documentation. If you're looking to play a controversial or divisive character, pick one of the many likes or hatreds that are actually in the docs and push that to its limit. They don't get nearly as much loving as they should.

So, we can order a male mul to make us a flatbread wrap, because it's a stereotype about muls being nothing more than servants.
But if we order a female mul to make us a flatbread wrap, we might get an account note saying that we were sexist?

Where do we draw the line? Are we not allowed to treat -any- females poorly, or expect them to behave a certain way, just in case they perceive it as a sexist slight? And if not, which treatments -may- we impose on those females?

Are we allowed to make comments about big tits making great armor? Or is that sexist because males don't have big tits? Are we allowed to make snide remarks about wanting to get into the current f-me's snatch? Or is that sexist because males don't have snatches? Should we be required to take up all female whores' offers for sex, so as not to be accused of hating women?

SO many things that someone -might- take offense to, or *might* consider sexist...saying "sexism isn't allowed" is vague. And saying "you know what I mean" - well sure, I know what you probably mean, but that player who lives in Turkey, where cultural norms is -completely- different from the USA, might think you mean something entirely different.

[Eurynomos]

The QuickStart is part of our foundation for playing in Zalanthas. It is not one of the 8 current "rules" of Armageddon. It is, however, part of the core documentation. Overlooking this documentation on purpose is akin to elves riding mounts or northern nobles sexing commoners. Don't do it. We -will- notice, and comment/act accordingly.

[Cutthroat]

If you go around asking women broads to go make you a sandwich flatbread wrap, you will be looked upon as insane at best, and needing killin' at worst. Is it against the rules specifically? I don't think so, but it does go against the general spirit of the game.

There are far better ways to add to the game than play the one person that hates all women/men in a world where sexism as we know it IRL does not and should not exist. Especially considering all the other biases that do exist and are supported heavily in the documentation. If you're looking to play a controversial or divisive character, pick one of the many likes or hatreds that are actually in the docs and push that to its limit. They don't get nearly as much loving as they should.

So, we can order a male mul to make us a flatbread wrap, because it's a stereotype about muls being nothing more than servants.
But if we order a female mul to make us a flatbread wrap, we might get an account note saying that we were sexist?

Where do we draw the line? Are we not allowed to treat -any- females poorly, or expect them to behave a certain way, just in case they perceive it as a sexist slight? And if not, which treatments -may- we impose on those females?

Are we allowed to make comments about big tits making great armor? Or is that sexist because males don't have big tits? Are we allowed to make snide remarks about wanting to get into the current f-me's snatch? Or is that sexist because males don't have snatches? Should we be required to take up all female whores' offers for sex, so as not to be accused of hating women?

SO many things that someone -might- take offense to, or *might* consider sexist...saying "sexism isn't allowed" is vague. And saying "you know what I mean" - well sure, I know what you probably mean, but that player who lives in Turkey, where cultural norms is -completely- different from the USA, might think you mean something entirely different.

Okay... that was a joking example based on the stereotypical "make me a sandwich" expression of misogyny IRL, intended to help sum up my thoughts on the matter. Let me be more clear:

The line is drawn where there is no IC reason for a character to hold a judgment about another. Sex does not and should not factor into bias for or against a character beyond attraction/breeding and anatomical differences related to a character's reproductive system. If you want to ask a female mul to make you a flatbread wrap because she is your slave, you can do that, and there is no reason you should think otherwise.

[Cutthroat]

I think this needs updated.

help rules (snip)

How about just making sexism another consentable piece.

Like I eventually got around to editing in one of my posts, Rule 1 comfortably handles sexism. It basically says: roleplay correctly. The quickstart says: no sexism. Therefore, roleplaying correctly implies no sexism.

[Eurynomos]

And no, Lizzie. Just don't use gender as a focal point for stereotyping. Don't give a man a job "because men work harder". Don't give a woman a tailoring job because "they're good at that kind of stuff, right?"
If you remove gender as a lens, you can clearly identify what aspects of the person in question isn't suited to the job. Instead of pointing out their gender as a stereotype, you can identify these traits instead.

[Lizzie]

And no, Lizzie. Just don't use gender as a focal point for stereotyping. Don't give a man a job "because men work harder". Don't give a woman a tailoring job because "they're good at that kind of stuff, right?"
If you remove gender as a lens, you can clearly identify what aspects of the person in question isn't suited to the job. Instead of pointing out their gender as a stereotype, you can identify these traits instead.

But that really is still vague. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to do a half-devil's advocate thing, and half-sincere need for clarification. A little of both. The slippery slope, and all that.

If I remove gender as a lens, then my Militia Sergeant won't be allowed to reject the hiring of the chick with the enormous tits and delicate features, glistening waist-long hair that is kept loose and perfectly groomed, and pristine alabaster skin, on the basis that a) her tits will get in the way of her work, b) she looks too delicate to succeed as a soldier, c) it's WAY too easy for her hair to get yanked by the enemy, thus making her a liability rather than an asset, and d) anyone with skin that white obviously has no interest in spending a moment outside in the sun, and therefore we have no use for her.

Because if you combine all that together, you have "because she's too girly" and that is sexist.

Unfortunately, you have players who create their characters intentionally to be "girly" and then you tell us we're not allowed to call them on it. And that's where I find the disparity.

[Maso]

I'm totally with Lizzie on this one.

It's a delicate and fine line. But there should be recognition that men and women -are- different. Just not that women would ever be weaker (in any way) just because they are women.

But just like there are powerful warrior women, there are also pansy, alabaster skinned, manicured men - who would be equally inappropriate for hire by some organisations.

[Cerelum]

I wish I could recall the book I had to read in college but it was in psychology and it stated something along the lines of:

"Every human being is bigoted in some way, no matter what they say or believe, it's part of human nature.  The only thing we can do is try not to act on that bias."

[MeTekillot]

cerelum that's all well and good but you were arguing for the right to play a PC who was bigoted against women for shits and giggles because you know they'd get killed within a week.

[Cutthroat]

I wish I could recall the book I had to read in college but it was in psychology and it stated something along the lines of:

"Every human being is bigoted in some way, no matter what they say or believe, it's part of human nature.  The only thing we can do is try not to act on that bias."

Right. Zalanthan humans are bigoted against other races, magickers, people from other places, people of certain professions, tribals (or city folk, depending) and more.

[Yam]

And no, Lizzie. Just don't use gender as a focal point for stereotyping. Don't give a man a job "because men work harder". Don't give a woman a tailoring job because "they're good at that kind of stuff, right?"
If you remove gender as a lens, you can clearly identify what aspects of the person in question isn't suited to the job. Instead of pointing out their gender as a stereotype, you can identify these traits instead.

But that really is still vague. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to do a half-devil's advocate thing, and half-sincere need for clarification. A little of both. The slippery slope, and all that.

If I remove gender as a lens, then my Militia Sergeant won't be allowed to reject the hiring of the chick with the enormous tits and delicate features, glistening waist-long hair that is kept loose and perfectly groomed, and pristine alabaster skin, on the basis that a) her tits will get in the way of her work, b) she looks too delicate to succeed as a soldier, c) it's WAY too easy for her hair to get yanked by the enemy, thus making her a liability rather than an asset, and d) anyone with skin that white obviously has no interest in spending a moment outside in the sun, and therefore we have no use for her.

Because if you combine all that together, you have "because she's too girly" and that is sexist.

Unfortunately, you have players who create their characters intentionally to be "girly" and then you tell us we're not allowed to call them on it. And that's where I find the disparity.

Uh no. You would be fine rejecting a character for being soft and delicate. You would not be fine for rejecting them for being female. You're conflating personal characteristics with gender.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Would it be sexist to treat women different because they carry and bear children while men don't?  And by that I mean by a culture expecting/demanding that women engage in less risky behavior than males because any male can father a child, any male can father several children at once but it takes a woman an entire pregnancy to give birth to at least one child, in a way making them more valuable/vulnerable in regards to populating a society than men.

[Cerelum]

cerelum that's all well and good but you were arguing for the right to play a PC who was bigoted against women for shits and giggles because you know they'd get killed within a week.

You are correct, sometimes you just like playing a crazy ass temporary role.

[MeTekillot]

I figure they'd handle pregnancy with "don't get knocked up or you get knocked back to cleaning duty, Runner".

They probably wouldn't send a pregnant woman into the fray the way they won't send an injured (wo)man into the fray.

It just so happens they get treated like an injured employee for however long until they give birth and probably a little while after.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Lets take a tribe for example, lets say they are at war.  They send all their all 500 of their fighting caste out to fight, roughly half of them are men and half of them are women.  The battle was a bloodbath, ten survivors return but they were victorious so it was worth it, the tribe is safe.

Now that the tribe is safe, the tribe's numbers have been reduced by 490 people.  With so many casualties the tribe is going to take many more generations to recover than if they had sent only men to fight.  My point is that it only takes one man to father five hundred children, but it takes (typically) five hundred women to bear five hundred babies.  In this sense, women are much more indispensable than men.

[Is Friday]

Within the context of the game, sure. However, men are physically capable in other ways that you are neglecting that is not included within the documentation in order to avoid the sexism part altogether.

Why would we want to give women special treatment and be sexist against men? That is against documentation, too.

[Yam]

The above situation is essentially a non-issue for the two big centers of civilization and Kurac/Luir's Outpost.

Most tribe documents address this issue, though. Many tribes source children from outside the tribe. Especially ones that get into destabilizing feuds (like the Red Fangs). If a tribe gets to the point that its reproductive base is threatened, it dies out.

Women are not more valuable than men in Zalanthas. Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

What makes you think it's a real world example?

[Dar]

Folk in the game cant even be prejudiced against breeds and you guys are trying to bring gender into it? Pffffth.

[Yam]

Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

What makes you think it's a real world example?

Because it isn't based on the game documentation.

[Cerelum]

Folk in the game cant even be prejudiced against breeds and you guys are trying to bring gender into it? Pffffth.

Yeah, I gotta say this irritates me, in Tuluk right now there are Chosen Lords and ladies who are acting like the elves and breeds are humans.

I intended on playing this character hard by the racism bias with elves and breeds, but everyone is so cushy to them.  If I become the hardnose racist I'm going to be looked at as crazy.

I've seen a few people who played the racism angle great, but I've never seen it in Tuluk, everyone just wants to hug everything.

I blame the inclusion of this city elf tribe.  Not that they aren't cool, but I think they are a little too respected.  After all they are just fancy shit-eating elves.

[Yam]

Insufferable.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

What makes you think it's a real world example?

Because it isn't based on the game documentation.

You're right, my bad.  I guess men can give birth it's right there in the docs.

[MeTekillot]

Cerelum that has nothing to do with the subject at hand but okay.

That's because in Tuluk, overt hatred or bigotry toward anyone is a no no. Tuluk is about subtlety.

You talk about how nice it was to spend Detal with your mother around that breed or mul. Or you make thinly veiled statements about chopping wood if you're actually talking about having sex or something. Play in Allanak if you want to be a hard-nosed racist and stop trying to turn the thread into a discussion about how Tuluk sucks.

[boog]

Dear God.

Nyr, lock this one, too?

[Eurynomos]

Folk in the game cant even be prejudiced against breeds and you guys are trying to bring gender into it? Pffffth.

Yeah, I gotta say this irritates me, in Tuluk right now there are Chosen Lords and ladies who are acting like the elves and breeds are humans.

I intended on playing this character hard by the racism bias with elves and breeds, but everyone is so cushy to them.  If I become the hardnose racist I'm going to be looked at as crazy.

I've seen a few people who played the racism angle great, but I've never seen it in Tuluk, everyone just wants to hug everything.

Racism isn't just pointing at an elf and snubbing them in public. Like most things in Tuluk, a lot happens behind the scenes. If anything, I think people shtup other alien races way too often. Don't worry, we notice that too. Racism is alive and well in Zalanthas.

[Cerelum]

Cerelum that has nothing to do with the subject at hand but okay.

That's because in Tuluk, overt hatred or bigotry toward anyone is a no no. Tuluk is about subtlety.

You talk about how nice it was to spend Detal with your mother around that breed or mul. Or you make thinly veiled statements about chopping wood if you're actually talking about having sex or something. Play in Allanak if you want to be a hard-nosed racist and stop trying to turn the thread into a discussion about how Tuluk sucks.

Wow, super sensitive guy, tell me where the thread touched you on this doll.

It was a valid point that made me realize that perhaps I should be focusing on the things people are doing wrong, rather then the things that (I guess) are documented you can't do.

I'm actually admitting I'm wrong.

[Cerelum]

Dear God.

Nyr, lock this one, too?

Please don't troll my thread.

[Nyr]

cerelum that's all well and good but you were arguing for the right to play a PC who was bigoted against women for shits and giggles because you know they'd get killed within a week.

You are correct, sometimes you just like playing a crazy ass temporary role.

This game has rules and expectations for following documentation.  You should play your crazy ass roles in another game.

How about just making sexism another consentable piece.

No.  This is not a good idea.

Folk in the game cant even be prejudiced against breeds and you guys are trying to bring gender into it? Pffffth.

Yeah, I gotta say this irritates me, in Tuluk right now there are Chosen Lords and ladies who are acting like the elves and breeds are humans.

I intended on playing this character hard by the racism bias with elves and breeds, but everyone is so cushy to them.  If I become the hardnose racist I'm going to be looked at as crazy.

I've seen a few people who played the racism angle great, but I've never seen it in Tuluk, everyone just wants to hug everything.

If only there were posts on the GDB discussing this exact subject.  If only you had been warned before about sniping complaints about people (who, by the way, are generally busting their asses off) who have been selected to play sponsored roles.

If only!