Spam Of Looks

[Kiara]

Is it me, or is it every time you walk into a bar, tavern, or some kind of establishment every single active pc types look (insert keyword of pc). From my experience bar's/taverns are crowded with pc's, npc's, vnpc's so to single out one person that just walks into the tavern is pretty poor rp. Depending on where you are in the bar/tavern 'Your' pc might not even have a clear view of the doorway/archway etc. So -why- do people continue to do this? Just thought I'd throw this out there.

[Kalai]

In case you're stark naked.

[Samoa]

Because we don't know if there is something remarkable about how you look or not. If you look nondescript and walk into a bar then your theory holds true. If you walk into a crowded bar but have mutated green skin and are wielding a giant, flame-engulfed broadsword, however, we would probably take notice. Unfortunately, there is no way to tell this without looking at you. So you get looked at.

[A Large Bag]

Yep, what the others said. There's things that may be so noticeable it would get people's attention but you can't tell if you don't look to get that information. Like walking in naked, topless, a pair of horns growing out of your tits, etc.

[BadSkeelz]

I try to resist it myself, trying only looking at people I have some reason to be interested in (looking to talk to/beat down, etc). Trying to remember where my PC is and whether he'd see someone come in is also a game I play with myself.

If you're entering a tavern and your PC has some reason to look exceptional (naked, on fire, etc) I urge you to throw up an emote when you come in. Have some fun with it and prevent a bit of look spam, hopefully.

[Kiara]

But really, when you think about it..there could be hundreds of people in those bars and you think every single person can be seen in that bar? I don't think so. It's like going to a club. You wont be able to see everyone. Naked or not, and if someone looks interesting ok then I give that to you as to why you'd look. But there is a chance that you wont see everyone that walks through that door.

[A Large Bag]

But really, when you think about it..there could be hundreds of people in those bars and you think every single person can be seen in that bar? I don't think so. It's like going to a club. You wont be able to see everyone. Naked or not, and if someone looks interesting ok then I give that to you as to why you'd look. But there is a chance that you wont see everyone that walks through that door.

If someone walks in naked, the npcs, vnpcs, and others would respond and the talk of it and looks would get everyone's attention toward that person. The only way to find out if this is necessary is with a look to see. Just because someone uses the coded look command on you doesn't mean their character is actually staring you down and examining you. It's one thing in the game that is both ic and ooc, imo. You have to use the look command to find out -if- your character would notice something about them or not that you can't tell from just the sdesc alone but should be obviously noticeable.

[The Lonely Hunter]

What gets under my skin a little is when people make it a point to include you in an emote in which they RP -not- noticing you.

Not noticing you, this guy looks the other way.

[Decameron]

I used to have an issue with this, but over time I let it go.

I would chalk it up to playability and interaction. If we're going to play the "there's hundreds of vnpcs in here!' game, then no one would really be interacting with anyone.

"Can I buy you a drink!?"
(The roar of hundreds of people talking at once)
"WHAT!?!"
"CAN I BUY YOU A DR- Fuck it, I am going to spam crafting."

People look at other people, when I see a PC I've never seen before, I want to look at them. Even if it's only to say, "Hey, nice necklace. I'm blah, blah blah.." because that's how conversations get started, or think to myself, "Wow, that's a Gemmed. I thought this was a -nice- tavern." etc. Without looking, you never know, and you miss on the opportunity, it might be an irritation, but I truly don't think it's going anywhere.

[Yam]

This is on the cycle of GDB posts. Yes people look at everyone. Yes that's fine. No you don't need to react to it abnormally. PCs mainly interact with PCs. VNPCs mainly interact with VNPCs. It's perfectly fine if someone notices you across the bar. Yes that happens in real life. No, Synthesis, we don't want to hear about your approach code right now. Yes it's okay to wear a hood in a bar.

I think I covered it.

[Is Friday]

In case you're stark naked.

Done this on a Salarri before. Held a conversation with two Tuluki nobles in the Sanc while hemoting about being naked and -carrying- her clothes for about 20 mins before someone animated the bartender to kick my PC out.

LOOK is important!  

[A Large Bag]

I'll bet they felt like idiots for not noticing the naked person they were talking to. Lol.

[Is Friday]

Well given the behavior of those two nobles thereafter I'm sure that incident was the least embarrassing on their record.

[Majikal]

In case you're stark naked.

Done this on a Salarri before. Held a conversation with two Tuluki nobles in the Sanc while hemoting about being naked and -carrying- her clothes for about 20 mins before someone animated the bartender to kick my PC out.

LOOK is important!  

This is pretty damn win.

[musashi]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

[Harmless]

May I advertise ass -v in this thread?

ass -v gives you: age, height, weight, gender, race (sort of), and whether they're armed or not, and whether they're tired or not or bleeding and wounded or not. That is a lot of information, and it all comes in the form of a hemote that most of the time goes unnoticed.

There you go.

edit: As for all of you clamoring for look being an hemote: only in taverns, does the spam does get annoying. Only in taverns. (and big social events)

Anywhere else? You don't want look to be an hemote, truuuuust me. (you might want it to be an hemote now, but sooomeday... you'll grow out of your little carebear shell and decide you'd LIKE to know when someone is pointing their pearly orbs at you.)

For your specific request to be heeded, it would require a context-based hemote-form of look that is, I guarantee you, too hard to code.

You know what?

Be the change you wanna see. I'm tired of people clamoring for code changes on the GDB as if all the riotous posts is going to get them somewhere. Yeah, it worked once with quit-safe rooms, but just because you want every little thing changed doesn't mean you'll get it, and especially not if you keep spamming posts in threads to bump them.

You don't like look spam? Don't look spam. Fuck, when I'm in crowded areas I sure as shit don't look at everybody. If I do look at everyone, I do it over a LONG period of time, spacing out my looks. I don't give a shit and neither does my PC and that's how it's gonna be pretty much for all of em. Even a naked person, who cares. Half these taverns have naked prostitutes in them anyway. Unless you're talking to me or getting in my business, I don't care.

However, if not everyone follows this advice, I don't care either. Spam happens for a lot of reasons in this game, you learn to deal with it.

[Kiara]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!

[A Large Bag]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I agree. It's just too necessary and newbies almost always freak about it. This one always cracks me up:

>look newbie

Main desc blah blah
Gear blah blah

Sounding pissy, newbie says: What the fuck are you looking at?!

Me: My next victim.

[Kiara]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I agree. It's just too necessary and newbies almost always freak about it.

Um..I'm far from being a newbie but I find it very irritating that 90% of pc's as soon as you walk into a room type "Look". 

[A Large Bag]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I agree. It's just too necessary and newbies almost always freak about it.

Um..I'm far from being a newbie but I find it very irritating that 90% of pc's as soon as you walk into a room type "Look". 

My mistake. Usually the veterans understand the reason for it and have no problem with it. It's usually the newbies complaining about look.

[Kiara]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I agree. It's just too necessary and newbies almost always freak about it.

Um..I'm far from being a newbie but I find it very irritating that 90% of pc's as soon as you walk into a room type "Look". 

My mistake. Usually the veterans understand the reason for it and have no problem with it. It's usually the newbies complaining about look.

It's basicly most of them don't care anymore because this is something that will never change. I've been playing arm for well over 12 years and it still bugs me.

[Taven]

On everybody looking at you when you enter:

• As said, this is the only way to tell if you're naked or holding a giant flaming sword
• Are you actively emoting about being lost in the vNPC crowd? If you're not, and it matters to you, try that.
• Finally, if you really want to be lost in the vNPC crowd, that's what the hide skill is for.

On emoting about ignoring people:

• Being unaware of people is a valid thing, and emoting that to show so makes sense
• The player knows you're there, and it's a way to show that they're active and are reacting to you - If they don't do this, you don't know if they're intentionally ignoring you, unintentionally ignoring you, or if the player even saw you in their screen scroll

On being naked and hemoting:

Hidden emotes should be used to represent subtle motions that wouldn't
be obvious to the room you are in.  Only those who are actively watching you,
or who are very observant will notice these.

• Being naked is REALLY OBVIOUS, and shouldn't take someone who is incredibly observant to notice
• What possible IC rational could someone give for something this obvious? If you're naked, it's your duty to EMOTE about it.

[A Large Bag]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I agree. It's just too necessary and newbies almost always freak about it.

Um..I'm far from being a newbie but I find it very irritating that 90% of pc's as soon as you walk into a room type "Look". 

My mistake. Usually the veterans understand the reason for it and have no problem with it. It's usually the newbies complaining about look.

It's basicly most of them don't care anymore because this is something that will never change. I've been playing arm for well over 12 years and it still bugs me.

Noone said that was the reason for it. Or if anyone did, it wasn't "most" of them. In fact "most" have told you it was necessary and gave you the reasons for it.

[boog]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!

Even though people would still spam look?

[RogueGunslinger]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!

Even though people would still spam look?

Yeah I though spam looking at people was unrealistic. Clearly the only option here is to remove the look command.

[Kiara]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!

Even though people would still spam look?

(very amused expression) Yes, because you wouldn't get the spam saying -Blah looks at you-..cute though boog, very very cute. Now I know why I like you. (smile)

[Maso]

Is it me, or is it every time you walk into a bar, tavern, or some kind of establishment every single active pc types look (insert keyword of pc). From my experience bar's/taverns are crowded with pc's, npc's, vnpc's so to single out one person that just walks into the tavern is pretty poor rp. Depending on where you are in the bar/tavern 'Your' pc might not even have a clear view of the doorway/archway etc. So -why- do people continue to do this? Just thought I'd throw this out there.

Because the players behind the characters want to see what your character looks like....so they can better imagine the scene as a whole. :/

[Kiara]

Is it me, or is it every time you walk into a bar, tavern, or some kind of establishment every single active pc types look (insert keyword of pc). From my experience bar's/taverns are crowded with pc's, npc's, vnpc's so to single out one person that just walks into the tavern is pretty poor rp. Depending on where you are in the bar/tavern 'Your' pc might not even have a clear view of the doorway/archway etc. So -why- do people continue to do this? Just thought I'd throw this out there.

Because the players behind the characters want to see what your character looks like....so they can better imagine the scene as a whole. :/

Isn't that he whole point of a sdesc? So that you get a general idea of what the person looks like.

[Nyr]

Googly-eyed people (2005) -- some good discussion on the matter

i used to be really really careful about not looking at people unless my pc had a reason to check them out. Lately, not so much.  I mean I could adjust my behavior to preserve your rp experience taking into account that you (you being the general you, not to op) have a thing about being looked at and not look. But I find that I'm doing so at the expense of my own rp experience. You miss a lot not looking at people. I'm not memorizing your ldescs. I'm just taking in the main stuff.

So, I can adjust my behavior and not know if I'm standing next to a six eyed four eared mutant with a cleaver, or you (general you again) can get past it and stop imagining that I've climbed up on your feet to stare into your eyes.

'Look' and much gnashing of teeth (2009) -- more good discussion about it

The look command is an exchange in information.  

You give me your main description and visible equipment so that I can make a determination for how my character might want to react to your physical appearance, possible mutations, visible tattoos or scars, choice of dress, obvious clan trappings, foreign or domestic items, and the state of your being.

I give you an indication that my character is being actively played, that I have a cursory interest in your character, and that I might be interested in some kind of interaction so that you can make a determination on whether you want to check me out in return, whether your character wants to make a response, pursue some interaction, or ignore me altogether.

What both sides choose to do with this information is entirely up to them, but I think it's important that the information continues to be passed -- whether it's handling messages that are IC, OOC, or both.

-LoD

The second link eventually gets into other areas like expanding assess to include information that might be more noticeable (in other threads/derails).

[Maso]

Is it me, or is it every time you walk into a bar, tavern, or some kind of establishment every single active pc types look (insert keyword of pc). From my experience bar's/taverns are crowded with pc's, npc's, vnpc's so to single out one person that just walks into the tavern is pretty poor rp. Depending on where you are in the bar/tavern 'Your' pc might not even have a clear view of the doorway/archway etc. So -why- do people continue to do this? Just thought I'd throw this out there.

Because the players behind the characters want to see what your character looks like....so they can better imagine the scene as a whole. :/

Isn't that he whole point of a sdesc? So that you get a general idea of what the person looks like.

It's really not satisfactory. There's plenty of things that may be mentioned in an mdesc or equipment worn that could be something a player might choose that their character would notice or respond to.

Get used to it.

[Karieith]

I am failing to see the issue and problem here? I don't see how looking at someone or being looked at is a big deal.

I do not mind when people look at my characters when they go places. Sometimes I put a lot of work into their mdescs and it sends a warm feeling to the cockles of my heart to see others observing it and hopefully reading and envisioning it.

Not only that, but looking at a PC is seriously the quickest and easiest way to ensure you'll greet them the proper way. There is no other way to discern a PCs rank short of overhearing someone else speaking to them. If I don't look at Chosen Lord/Lady Hardnose and just say "Oh hey sup." I am going to have a really bad day.

Players and their characters need to look at your PC to know how we're going to need to interact with you. Looking at someone is the only way to know their status. It's necessary, and as far as I am aware, harmless.

Look saves lives and faces!
Tuluki Noble Aide X has just spent several OOC hours wining and dining Sexy Sdesced Fme in hopes of raunchy emoted mudsex in a unique location (in the known world and perhaps in the Fme ) for the sole purpose of amusing Calavera. Only once Aide X starts doing the deed does Aide X finally look at the Fme and notices that while the Fme does have a rocking mdesc, they are uninked and southron and oh nooooesss.

Now Aide X has to backstab the Fme a different way. This could all have been prevented (or expedited) if they had just looked.

[BadSkeelz]

Templars at least have their Templarness in the sdesc. Be nice if nobles did too.

Also if you're personally getting look-spammed, you're probably just too damn sexy. Meow.

[Synthesis]

Just because I look at you doesn't mean I give a shit.

[Karieith]

Templars at least have their Templarness in the sdesc. Be nice if nobles did too.

I know that, it was just an example meh! EDITED TO BE A NOBLE BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE.  

Also if you're personally getting look-spammed, you're probably just too damn sexy. Meow.

Don't I know it! Fmes don't make themselves y'know.  

...Not that I think my current character is a fme... I'm not sure where the boundary is! It's all very subjective.

_{I believe the fme boundary is passed when a mdesc describes a bust in more than one sentence, or musculature and/or physical details with greater than two adjectives at least twice.}

[Patuk]

I want to kidnap a Templar, strip them naked, and toss them into the desert. See how obvious their templar-ness is then.

Also, because the above situation doesn't happen quite so often, I think the templar sdescs are fine. Nobles, too, are fine, I think. There's no way for your pale-skinned, northen bard to find out if that guy is a merchant or a southern noble(no silver star) until your limbs are being torn apart at meleths for not bowing.

[boog]

There are ways to tell if nobles are nobles, especially in the south.

[DustMight]

Just use your client to gag looks at you and you're all set.

[DustMight]

Just because I look at you doesn't mean I give a shit.

This is pure Zalanthas.   

[Is Friday]

On being naked and hemoting:

Hidden emotes should be used to represent subtle motions that wouldn't
be obvious to the room you are in.  Only those who are actively watching you,
or who are very observant will notice these.

• Being naked is REALLY OBVIOUS, and shouldn't take someone who is incredibly observant to notice
• What possible IC rational could someone give for something this obvious? If you're naked, it's your duty to EMOTE about it.

It was Tuluk. My PC was being subtle.

[Patuk]

There are ways to tell if nobles are nobles, especially in the south.

There is, sure there is, but then again, people from either city wouldn't know the customs of the other place, or so I figure. It's how I RP it to be, anyway, since the awkwardness of such things is awful fun.

[Potaje]

Here's a thought, if its so crowded that you feel you would not be noticed, then perhaps you should not notice being looked at.

I think perhaps you could play it either way, and simply pretend you don't notice being noticed. It's really hard for someone to judge who should or should not notice -what- in the case of public meeting places and being looked at, IMHO.

I'd just roll with it, personally.

[Namino]

What gets under my skin a little is when people make it a point to include you in an emote in which they RP -not- noticing you.

Not noticing you, this guy looks the other way.

I think this is actually hugely polite, RPing not noticing someone. There's a difference between ignoring a player and ignoring a character.

In a tavern only one at the bar:

A burly man arrives from the north.

A burly man walks north.

That annoys me more than:

A burly man arrives from the north.

Clearly in a hurry, a burly man scans over the patrons. Evidently failing to see something to catch his interest, he ducks back out.

A burly man walks north.

At least in the latter example, I'm worth an emote from player to player even if I'm not worth acknowledgement from character to character.

[Dar]

I do not mind people looking at me when I walk into the room. I do mind when people "chase" after me across multiple rooms, just to catch a look, and then leave without any emote. I could understand it, the person is actively looking for someone and does not have time. But it still feels meh.

[musashi]

I want to kidnap a Templar, strip them naked, and toss them into the desert. See how obvious their templar-ness is then.

Also, because the above situation doesn't happen quite so often, I think the templar sdescs are fine. Nobles, too, are fine, I think. There's no way for your pale-skinned, northen bard to find out if that guy is a merchant or a southern noble(no silver star) until your limbs are being torn apart at meleths for not bowing.

A Templar PC has a normal sdesc. The robe adds the Templar to the end of their sdesc in place of the last word. Typically man or woman.

So yeah, stripping a Templar PC naked would already make them look normal. It's been coded.

[Patuk]

I want to kidnap a Templar, strip them naked, and toss them into the desert. See how obvious their templar-ness is then.

Also, because the above situation doesn't happen quite so often, I think the templar sdescs are fine. Nobles, too, are fine, I think. There's no way for your pale-skinned, northen bard to find out if that guy is a merchant or a southern noble(no silver star) until your limbs are being torn apart at meleths for not bowing.

A Templar PC has a normal sdesc. The robe adds the Templar to the end of their sdesc in place of the last word. Typically man or woman.

So yeah, stripping a Templar PC naked would already make them look normal. It's been coded.

.. Ahh. Ahah. Hah. Ha. Heeh.. Oh, the possibilities. That is -amazing-, it is.

[musashi]

Yes. The man with no hair can in fact become ...

The man with no templar.

[Karieith]

Yes. The man with no hair can in fact become ...

The man with no templar.

>.> Apping that.
_{It'll be rejected, though}

I bet it's just coded to cover young man/woman, man/woman, youth etc, not the end clause of a sdesc.

[boog]

Well, if you use an sdesc, you have to use man/woman/descriptor. Templar doesn't work! At least, it never has when I've done it, since, the ... robe, you know.

contact the.stinky.templar
NO

contact the.stinky.woman
YES!

[valeria]

You just assume my character isn't looking at everyone that enters.  Just because it doesn't echo  

Mostly it's about the equ list.  My character would definitely notice if you had <insert clan cloak or noble signet here>, which is not something that shows up in an sdesc but would be noticed and might instigate appropriate roleplay.

[Gunnerblaster]

Meh. My only response to this is to not take the look command so literally.

Don't assume people are blankly staring at you when you enter a room.

A lot of this issue would probably vanish if the 'Look Command' was made a hemote if left without emotes but a normal emote if (emote) or [emote] was attached.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The thing is... It just doesn't echo when you look at vnpcs, they're just spotting you from amidst some of the others they no doubtr get enough of a glimpse of to at least see what colors they're wearing and such. You know.

[chrisdcoulombe]

When someone is uncomfortable with me looking, I assume they are up to something so I look more than once. 

[Dakota]

>look (as her cold gaze drifts over those along the bar) some.man

...

see? Was that hard? I just spelled out the whole suspension of disbelief (i.e. that I'm looking at more people that YOU).

[Fathi]

This is one of those things you just have to learn to filter out. It used to bother me when I first started playing, because I felt like I had to emote and perform for all those people who looked at my character!

But then I realised that just because they look doesn't mean they give a shit.

[Jeshin]

Don't worry, one day you'll be annoyed people don't look. How do you think Templar mcHardnose feels when he spends 3000 sid on some new item for his look and no one bothers to even look spam him because they all know he's a Templar?

Look spam shows you care!

[rocketman]

Some people make it sound like "look" is someone staring at you point blank without flinching. In fact it could be just a turn of your head, and the person comes into view. In real life if your in the supermarket, and a big lady with a bright green shirt stands in line behind you, you notice her as you silde your can of pea's up to the cashier. Now you didn't stop and stare at her you casualy seen her and now you know a big lady in a green shirt is behind you. I think its the same thing with the look command. Its a pain yes when the entire room "looks" at you when you step in. But I don't take it as if I am being stared at.

[SpyGuy]

Look just needs to be an hemote instead of a normal echo. So people won't freak about it.

I agree.  But it should work similar to "look in" so that if you added a command emote it'll become a normal emote.

Examples:

look amos = vanilla hemote

look amos (narrowing his eyes) = normal emote

[Voular]

My templar use to order people to look at him, for his swanky outfits.

In any case, I really hate people who do "non-emotes". Ie. "emote ignores ~you." and so forth. You don't have to emote out negative values, simply emote out doing whatever the fuck else you are doing that leads you to ignore me. You might as well emote "e is not rich and is not bald.". Makes about as much sense. It's information we already know, and can deduce from the situation. No need to hit me over the head with a fucking insult emote.

[Dalmeth]

It's funny.

The real world operates with the same degree of anxiety.

People are just going to look at you.  Get over it.

[AreteX]

I don't see what the problem is when it comes to looking at everyone.  The comparison about a bar/club has been made with 100's of potential people.  When I am at a bar/club in real life I look at everyone all the time.  I am a big fan of people watching anywhere I go.  I am sure other people do this.

When you look at someone you take a quick assessment of them and move on usually.  If you like how they look or are intrigued you go back eventually and maybe stare for a while.  When you look at someone in-game it isn't like you're staring at them for an extraordinary amount of time.  You're looking at them.  This could be emoted to give more intent.  If you're staring, emote it.  If you're just glancing, emote it.  I don't see why there is any problem with someone looking at your character.

Now, I do understand why you might be annoyed by walking into the tavern and immediately being looked at by every PC in the room.  This is something I tend to avoid myself unless my character is already looking at the entrance direction.  If I am waiting on someone and staring at the tarp then you'll probably be looked at when you enter.  If I am deep in conversation then I won't just suddenly turn and look at the new PC that entered the room.  But, if you walk up to the bar and sit down I might give you a glance because... I'm at the bar too and just like RL I tend to look at people who come sit at the same bar.

I think this is a matter of the correct emoting and interpretation of look.  If you're staring while you look, emote it.  And if there is no emote accompanied with the look then don't assume someone is doing anything more than a cursory glance and let it go!

[Creslin]

I personally think the staff should do one of the following:

• Remove the echo from look unless an emote is attached.
• OR - Make looking at someone something that has to be noticed by the watch skill like hemotes (unless they emote??  )
• OR- add a command that gives a fraction of the information that look gives and has no echo
  

If they added a new command like 'glance' (help glance currently refers to assess) it would be cool if you only 100% of the time saw certain equipment (cloaks, shirts, pants, boots, helmets/masks, weapons (especially on back), gloves) and the rest had to make watch skill checks.

I.E not everything will notice that bracelet, or that necklace, or that earring, belt, ankle items, ect, but making a watch skill check you could notice these things.

[DustMight]

If you gag the look on your client you won't see it. 
Problem solved.

[Creslin]

If you gag the look on your client you won't see it.  
Problem solved.

I don't think you understand what I was getting at... it's not all about whether *I* see the echo or not. It's also an issue with being able to look at someone without being noticed that you're doing so, which some people want.

[titansfan]

I lived in a tavern for pretty much my whole life, my grandparents owned it. After 17 years of bar watching, I notice that anytime someone comes into the tavern, people will turn and give a glance at said person for the following reasons:

A) To see if they actually know said person.
B) To check out said person because said person might be *haaaawt*
C) The noise of the door opening/closing startled them
D) People are just curious creatures (or drunk).

[Lizzie]

I think people are trying to compare a tavern or inn, with a real-world american-style dance club.

You won't be seeing hundreds of people milling about in these Zalanthan bars - maybe a few dozen in any one room, at any given moment, at the very most. Perhaps you'll see hundreds of people pass in and out over the course of a game-day. But that'd consist of "the random VNPC crew of 6 Bynners" with the "random VNPC crew of 4 Oash Elites" along with the "random VNPC crew of 3 solders" plus the 3 PC soldiers that are always on duty and assigned permanently to the building, plus "the 4 random unaffiliated nondenominational citizen VNPCs who came in for lunch," and the so on and so forth...

and that's one game-hour period. Then the next game hour, you have a whole new set of a couple dozen people. And maybe there'll be 1/4 of an hour overlap between groups, where there might even be a few people standing waiting for an empty stool at the bar.

at night you'd have much more, because that's when most of the houses and organizations allow employees to take time off.

But "much more" is another dozen, not a few hundred. There are probably several more virtual bars to accommodate more virtual customers, in addition to the 2-6 in the city (depending on the city).

[BadSkeelz]

I can't speak for many other taverns, but I imagine the Gaj as being similar to a large German Beer Hall i.e. pretty friggin' big. Being the largest (it takes up a full block on the [admittedly not to scale] city map) and least exclusive, it stands to reason that it'd draw huge crowds. A crowd of hundreds is not at all hard for me to imagine there. I've seen other PCs emoting having to force their way through the virtual crowd even if it's just me and them in there. And you'll still get "crushed by the crowd against the bar" if you're the only PC there. Place is busy.

[ghostymudy]

Tangent time - the look command echoing.

In my opinion I don't think of a look echo as being a terribly bad thing as it doesn't really give people much of and advantage in any way and it's pretty sensible. If I'm looking at you in a way that allows me to discern the decorations of none-common armours, then I think it's fair to say you might notice. If you want to just glance at someone briefly in a way that doesn't attract attention then just Hemote it manually, yeah you wont get an echo describing their appearance indepth as well as every little visible trinket they have on them but then you're glancing at them, not giving them a good hard stare down, as evidenced by the Hemote you typed out.

You could then go on about the way you'd be able to spot the general colours of people's outfits and uniforms at a glance without picking up the fine details... but then that's easily answered by whacking an emote on their stating you're glancing in that way and leaving it to yourself and the other player to play it off as what it was RP'd to be, a glance, that "playing off" being you not picking up on fine details until you have a normal look at them and them -possibly- not paying it much heed.

You could respond to that by mentioning how even if you pay it off perfectly as a glance, some people still RP as catching you out. The solution there would be to "deal with it", because sometimes people  catch you glancing and people will react to it as they wish. If the amount of the people RPing it as them catching you glancing at them far outnumbers those ignoring it, think about the vNPCs that don't catch you glancing at them. You notice all these vNPCs in a tavern yet the three thugs in the corner of the seedy tavern that would happily beat your breed to a pulp for looking at them don't, because they didn't notice you, so count yourselves lucky!


Either that or we could just stop caring about something so miniscule that barely affects RP and keep going as is with a system that's functioned well facilitating RP for longer than I've been born. Code shouldn't really need to walk people through this by their hands and I believe our playerbase is mature enough to let the occasional glance go.

Either way, if people make a thing of you glancing at them then it's more RP, that's what the games about, no?


That all probably made bugger all sense but I don't care since it's late and I never get to post on the GDB anyway. I just feel complaining about people seeing you looking at them is a little silly.

[Kiara]

Look, I don't care if you call me silly or stupid for posting about something I find rather annoying. But again it's also another one of the reasons I hate posting on the GDB because 80% of the GDB population degrade and insult you.

Bottom line this post was about when you walk into a tavern and ALL the pc's in that room look at you. So all you see when you walk in is the following. No pauses in between looks, no nothing, you just get spammed with 10x looks from people. I did this post because I walked into a bar just recently and this is exactly what happened.

1. (blah looks at you)
2. (blah looks at you)
3. (blah looks at you)
4. (blah looks at you)
5. (blah looks at you)
6. (blah looks at you)
7. (blah looks at you)
8. (blah looks at you)
9. (blah looks at you)
10. (blah looks at you)

No emotes that are visible to me, and the fact that this is in fact annoying. Emote with the look do SOMETHING, don't just type Look Blah! If your hemoting GREAT!! If not this is something to think about. Yea the game is about rp, but really that's not rp. Rp is when you actually type "Look blah, while glancing past blah."

[Delirium]

That's emoting. Roleplay is doing what your character would do, in a consistent and believable manner.

Lookspam used to annoy me, too, but it's just one of those things that's necessary to gloss over. Don't sweat the small stuff, etc.

[Malifaxis]

This is the most idiotic thing to get annoyed over.  Seriously.  It's so goddamn minute that it's laughable.

Let just say (and I'm not saying you do, I'm just using this as a hypothetical situation) that you only ever play F'me PCs who are fucking perfect and who, perhaps, paint their toenails.  How are we supposed to know you have immaculately kept and painted toenails without actually looking at your PC?  You (hypothetical you, remember) took the time and effort to put that into your Ldesc so you (again, hypothetical) obviously want people to know.  How are we supposed to know without looking at you unless you walk in to the bar like this:

Her immaculately painted toenails leading the way, the buxom, buxomly set of womanly curves wrapped around a vague character concept enters from the south.

Which you (again, hypothetical) probably would never do.  Because it's not first in your mind.

As for the blah looks at you problem... again, get over it.  Just like you (hypothetical!) don't enter every room with a staged emote ready to go, every person who looks at you doesn't always have time to express how they're looking at you.

Some people will just look at you.  Get over it.

Some people will look you up and down.  Some will squint.  Some will look up in shock as various parts of their body immediately begin to stiffen because you're playing Tektolnes' own concubine-quality F'me.  Some will glance at you over the rim of a shotglass.  Some will not even care enough to look at you.

And some.  Will.  Look.  At.  You.   Nothing special.  Nothing grandiose.  Nothing even laughably noteworthy.  They just look.  Then they go back to whatever scene they are involved in, having grebbed the information they needed to from your PC by looking at her (namely, your immaculately kept hypothetical toenails.)

Bebop and I walked into a bar last night... wow that sounds like a joke, but it's totally not.  We actually did that.  She was dressed amazingly, I was dressed kinda alrightly, and we walked into this shithole of a bar.  Know what happened?  People turned to look at us.

OMG.

They turned to look!  THE FUCKERS!  So I immediately flipped out and ninjakilled them all.

The end.

[Thunkkin]

The first time I played a character that could hide and also "peek," my appreciation for the game world really went up. I began to notice neat things that NPCs were wearing or to suddenly realize things about N/PCS (their affiliations, slave collars, etc.) that I had missed for a long time. Why? Because I could take my time and look at things without feeling like I was wandering around gaping with my mouth open spamming everyone.

I wish look was silent (offset by mdesc hiding masks and a study command in light of the raiding objection, which is the only objection about the look command having an echo that I find mildly compelling). I cut my teeth on other muds and this aspect of Arm was one of the things I found very tiresome and strange. I hate other people's look spam and I despise generating my own. So I just don't look at people unless I'm talking directly with them and I often end up ignoring npcs. Staff's work goes less appreciated and player's work goes less appreciated.

The "hood"-looks are the best. "OMG IT'S PROBABLY A THIEF OR ASSASSIN AND IF I LOOK IMMEDIATELY IT WILL REVEAL SOMETHING AMAZING. Oh, no, just a normal person. Yawn. I'll walk away before they have a chance to look back." I swear some of you have a "look figure" macro.

Dorks.

[flurry]

Silver lining: If you're overwhelmed with look echos, you must be someplace where there are lots of PCs.

[DustMight]

If you gag the look on your client you won't see it.  
Problem solved.

I don't think you understand what I was getting at... it's not all about whether *I* see the echo or not. It's also an issue with being able to look at someone without being noticed that you're doing so, which some people want.

I was addressing the general issue of look spam, which seemed to be the biggest issue, to me.

[jhunter]

This is the most idiotic thing to get annoyed over.  Seriously.  It's so goddamn minute that it's laughable.

Let just say (and I'm not saying you do, I'm just using this as a hypothetical situation) that you only ever play F'me PCs who are fucking perfect and who, perhaps, paint their toenails.  How are we supposed to know you have immaculately kept and painted toenails without actually looking at your PC?  You (hypothetical you, remember) took the time and effort to put that into your Ldesc so you (again, hypothetical) obviously want people to know.  How are we supposed to know without looking at you unless you walk in to the bar like this:

Her immaculately painted toenails leading the way, the buxom, buxomly set of womanly curves wrapped around a vague character concept enters from the south.

Which you (again, hypothetical) probably would never do.  Because it's not first in your mind.

As for the blah looks at you problem... again, get over it.  Just like you (hypothetical!) don't enter every room with a staged emote ready to go, every person who looks at you doesn't always have time to express how they're looking at you.

Some people will just look at you.  Get over it.

Some people will look you up and down.  Some will squint.  Some will look up in shock as various parts of their body immediately begin to stiffen because you're playing Tektolnes' own concubine-quality F'me.  Some will glance at you over the rim of a shotglass.  Some will not even care enough to look at you.

And some.  Will.  Look.  At.  You.   Nothing special.  Nothing grandiose.  Nothing even laughably noteworthy.  They just look.  Then they go back to whatever scene they are involved in, having grebbed the information they needed to from your PC by looking at her (namely, your immaculately kept hypothetical toenails.)

Bebop and I walked into a bar last night... wow that sounds like a joke, but it's totally not.  We actually did that.  She was dressed amazingly, I was dressed kinda alrightly, and we walked into this shithole of a bar.  Know what happened?  People turned to look at us.

OMG.

They turned to look!  THE FUCKERS!  So I immediately flipped out and ninjakilled them all.

The end.

I think I saw that in the news. Man Brutally Murders Twenty Bargoers Over Look Spam

[Is Friday]

They turned to look!  THE FUCKERS!  So I immediately flipped out and ninjakilled them all.

Did you even get any dodges?

[Lizzie]

Look, I don't care if you call me silly or stupid for posting about something I find rather annoying. But again it's also another one of the reasons I hate posting on the GDB because 80% of the GDB population degrade and insult you.

I consider getting defensive about people calling you silly or stupid, when no one has done that, rather annoying. But mostly mindboggling. Perhaps you just need to relax some. You're getting stressed about something that isn't even -on- the "annoyance radar" for most other people, and for those who allow it to register at all, it's pretty low on the scale.

Bottom line this post was about when you walk into a tavern and ALL the pc's in that room look at you. So all you see when you walk in is the following. No pauses in between looks, no nothing, you just get spammed with 10x looks from people. I did this post because I walked into a bar just recently and this is exactly what happened.

1. (blah looks at you)
2. (blah looks at you)
3. (blah looks at you)
4. (blah looks at you)
5. (blah looks at you)
6. (blah looks at you)
7. (blah looks at you)
8. (blah looks at you)
9. (blah looks at you)
10. (blah looks at you)

No emotes that are visible to me, and the fact that this is in fact annoying. Emote with the look do SOMETHING, don't just type Look Blah! If your hemoting GREAT!! If not this is something to think about. Yea the game is about rp, but really that's not rp. Rp is when you actually type "Look blah, while glancing past blah."

So really, you're just annoyed that people didn't emote about how they looked at you, and that they didn't give your character the attention you feel your character deserved above and beyond the "look" echo itself.

Um - sorry. My guess, is that they were all checking in advance, to determine whether or not your character was worth emoting over. If they looked, and then didn't do anything else, then there's your answer: They determined that your character had nothing physically noteworthy. If they looked, and -did- react to what they saw, then there's your answer: They determined that your character DID have something physically noteworthy.

Honest. It just isn't that big a deal. Unless you feel your character is all that and a bag o'chips, and no one else feels the same way. In which case, oh well. Them's the breaks, maybe play an hermaphrodite with a huge uniboob and a single ball hanging down from a 3-foot scrotum or something. I'm sure you'll get the response you seek, then.

[Kiara]

Look, I don't care if you call me silly or stupid for posting about something I find rather annoying. But again it's also another one of the reasons I hate posting on the GDB because 80% of the GDB population degrade and insult you.

I consider getting defensive about people calling you silly or stupid, when no one has done that, rather annoying. But mostly mindboggling. Perhaps you just need to relax some. You're getting stressed about something that isn't even -on- the "annoyance radar" for most other people, and for those who allow it to register at all, it's pretty low on the scale.

Bottom line this post was about when you walk into a tavern and ALL the pc's in that room look at you. So all you see when you walk in is the following. No pauses in between looks, no nothing, you just get spammed with 10x looks from people. I did this post because I walked into a bar just recently and this is exactly what happened.

1. (blah looks at you)
2. (blah looks at you)
3. (blah looks at you)
4. (blah looks at you)
5. (blah looks at you)
6. (blah looks at you)
7. (blah looks at you)
8. (blah looks at you)
9. (blah looks at you)
10. (blah looks at you)

No emotes that are visible to me, and the fact that this is in fact annoying. Emote with the look do SOMETHING, don't just type Look Blah! If your hemoting GREAT!! If not this is something to think about. Yea the game is about rp, but really that's not rp. Rp is when you actually type "Look blah, while glancing past blah."

So really, you're just annoyed that people didn't emote about how they looked at you, and that they didn't give your character the attention you feel your character deserved above and beyond the "look" echo itself.

Um - sorry. My guess, is that they were all checking in advance, to determine whether or not your character was worth emoting over. If they looked, and then didn't do anything else, then there's your answer: They determined that your character had nothing physically noteworthy. If they looked, and -did- react to what they saw, then there's your answer: They determined that your character DID have something physically noteworthy.

Honest. It just isn't that big a deal. Unless you feel your character is all that and a bag o'chips, and no one else feels the same way. In which case, oh well. Them's the breaks, maybe play an hermaphrodite with a huge uniboob and a single ball hanging down from a 3-foot scrotum or something. I'm sure you'll get the response you seek, then.

This isn't about my pc, so on that aspect your wrong. I just used me as an example of what I ment by spam looking.

Quote from: Malifaxis on Today at 10:28:43
This is the most idiotic thing to get annoyed over.  Seriously.  It's so goddamn minute that it's laughable.

And yes this is the reason I get defensive because of how people talk to each other about things that are brought up on the gdb as just a general comment. Just because I find it annoying I don't expect others to but excuse me for posting something that would possibly interest others in adding their thoughts and opinions on the matter.

On the actual Spam Looking, if you type "look blah" your pc is in MY MIND, and CODELY turning their head and looking at someone. Either because they are curious as to who they are, what they are wearing, IF they are dressed or not. THIS in my OPINION should be actually emoted because you are physically turning your head and looking at the person.  As for having triggers set up so that when you walk into a tavern/bar either coming or going, sitting down or even looking at someone, I know quite a few people who have that set up.

[Akaramu]

No emotes that are visible to me, and the fact that this is in fact annoying. Emote with the look do SOMETHING, don't just type Look Blah! If your hemoting GREAT!! If not this is something to think about. Yea the game is about rp, but really that's not rp. Rp is when you actually type "Look blah, while glancing past blah."

I actually have a tiny little pet peeve about look emotes... because a lot of people go look woman (with a brief glance) or something similar, BUT: they can't possibly know if they would actually glance briefly, or stare wide-eyed at me for five minutes straight because I'm wearing a magickal medallion of writhing tentacles. Only after actually reading the mdesc / equipment list can you know how much attention you'd give that person.

I don't really get why look spam is a big deal, either. It bothers me more when people enter, sit bar, look, stand, walk back out without one single emote ever.

[Lizzie]

But, I didn't turn my head. I was already looking in that direction, and you showed up. I didn't change my vantage point at all. Nothing about ME has changed. My eyes are still looking at the exact same piece of tavern space as it was 2 seconds before your character chose to occupy it. Now, if you expect me to continually spam

emote is looking at a spot near the entry

over and over and over again, because change ldesc won't allow me to display that unless I'm standing up or sitting on the floor..

then I guess the only response I have for you is

the same response I had in my last post: you need to relax and stop obsessing about something that isn't important.

Also, it IS about you. If it weren't, you wouldn't have posted. Your opinion applies to your situation.  If I'm getting 10 spam-looks at MY character, and *I* don't give a shit, then you have no reason, need, or entitlement to give a shit either.

[A Large Bag]

If anything, this thread is making the devil in me want to look at people more.

[Kiara]

But, I didn't turn my head. I was already looking in that direction, and you showed up. I didn't change my vantage point at all. Nothing about ME has changed. My eyes are still looking at the exact same piece of tavern space as it was 2 seconds before your character chose to occupy it. Now, if you expect me to continually spam

emote is looking at a spot near the entry

over and over and over again, because change ldesc won't allow me to display that unless I'm standing up or sitting on the floor..

then I guess the only response I have for you is

the same response I had in my last post: you need to relax and stop obsessing about something that isn't important.

Also, it IS about you. If it weren't, you wouldn't have posted. Your opinion applies to your situation.  If I'm getting 10 spam-looks at MY character, and *I* don't give a shit, then you have no reason, need, or entitlement to give a shit either.

So every pc is simply staring blankly at the general direction of the door? because without a emote that's exactly what every pc is doing, unless in conversation. So when a pc walks into the 'space' as you call it, everyone is already looking at that 'space' so they don't have to emote looking at you or towards you.

All I have to say to that is wow.

[Lizzie]

If anything, this thread is making the devil in me want to look at people more.

I used to emote-look at everyone but eventually it was like - dood. I don't know if I want to interact with your character yet, because I have no fucking idea who you are, with that hood up of yours. And you can't "look figure's mdesc" so that won't work either.

So now, I generally just type look figure. UNLESS I have reason, interest, or need to interact with that person, no matter who they end up being (like, random raider #46 in the red desert, who forgets to warn my pc not to look)

And when people do that to me, and they don't emote anything special about it, I just assume it's the player wanting to know whether or not my character is interesting enough to them that they'd want to engage in some are-pee.

When a whole bunch of them look one right after the other, I immediately type "examine me" to see if I'm glowing or bleeding profusely or floating or enshrouded by shroudy shadowy shrouds or something. And if I'm not, I -might- have my character respond to the sudden interest in her, by asking the crowd if they were really -that- bored before I showed up

[A Large Bag]

But, I didn't turn my head. I was already looking in that direction, and you showed up. I didn't change my vantage point at all. Nothing about ME has changed. My eyes are still looking at the exact same piece of tavern space as it was 2 seconds before your character chose to occupy it. Now, if you expect me to continually spam

emote is looking at a spot near the entry

over and over and over again, because change ldesc won't allow me to display that unless I'm standing up or sitting on the floor..

then I guess the only response I have for you is

the same response I had in my last post: you need to relax and stop obsessing about something that isn't important.

Also, it IS about you. If it weren't, you wouldn't have posted. Your opinion applies to your situation.  If I'm getting 10 spam-looks at MY character, and *I* don't give a shit, then you have no reason, need, or entitlement to give a shit either.

So every pc is simply staring blankly at the general direction of the door? because without a emote that's exactly what every pc is doing, unless in conversation. So when a pc walks into the 'space' as you call it, everyone is already looking at that 'space' so they don't have to emote looking at you or towards you.

All I have to say to that is wow.

Yes because you know exactly where everyone was looking, facing, or what they were doing -before- you entered the room right? According to you, one cannot simply look at someone with a shift of their eyes without craning their neck and having some sort of out of the ordinary expression on their faces? They're supposed to emote out looking like a bunch of meerkats every time they look at someone?

These are serious questions because that's what I'm getting out of your posts.

[musashi]

I like where this thread has gone. We're all in a very special place right now.

[jstorrie]

Before people being a pile of turds gets this thread locked, I just want to pop in to say that I support emote-less looks being 'hidden but noticeable' a-la the assess command. I also don't think anyone should feel guilty about 'the look-spams' because it is necessary to use the look command to play the game, so do what you gotta do.

Ok, continue flaming, I'm sure Nyr will be by in a minute or two.

[Is Friday]

Rise with me, my brethren! Together, we will not give a shit.

> l figure (not appearing to give one or even two shits)

[Lizzie]

Rise with me, my brethren! Together, we will not give a shit.

> l figure (not appearing to give one or even two shits)

emote eyes ~friday morbidly.

[Synthesis]

I love the fact that looks echo, because it basically lets me know whether I'm hidden or not.

[Lizzie]

I love the fact that looks echo, because it basically lets me know whether I'm hidden or not.

Um..

Just because you have successfully hidden, doesn't mean my character can't see you.

from help scan:

This skill allows a keen use of observational techniques and good vision
to spot invisible and hidden persons. Any such persons will appear as
shadows or blurs only.

[Zoltan]

I don't always play Armageddon, but when I do, I fuckin' 'l' at EVERYONE. The only time I might not look at someone is when I already have a ton of screen scroll and I don't want to throw a splat of text in the middle of it. Shit, I'll look at other PCs more than once in a single encounter!!!

It's this funny thing how this is a text-based game, and the primary way to gather visual, auditory and uh... er, "smell-itory" data is to hit up that look command. I don't throw PC descriptions into a note file or anything, so if I want to see how someone or something looks, I look. Man, I didn't even realize "look spam" was an issue, I thought it was primarily a concern of sensitive and meta-gaming raider and 'gicker types. I guess I'm leaning towards the "make it noticeable like assess" opinion now. Hate to think I'm shattering immersionz with the most basic and necessary information-gathering command in the game. Though, if that change were made, I'd miss being able to do command emotes with it that are guaranteed to be seen.

And is it really a discourtesy to have a player experience your character? As others have mentioned, it can often be the first step in an interaction. The burden isn't on the gemmer to constantly emote his gem, I can simply look at him and at least have an inkling of where our characters stand, and how to interact. And it's solely off of that "visual" queue. Looks are a necessary part of experiencing and interacting with the game world, as well as other player characters.

[chrisdcoulombe]

The way I look at it is the pc's are the ones that stand out, which is why we are the ones that write the story.  This is why we are the ones that get looked at and is why we notice the other pc's as they enter the bar.  The Pc's represent the heroes, the villians, the commoner, the noble, the mundane, the magicker and everything between those.  As Pc's we are the ones that are conspicuous, distinctive, or prominent., so get used to being looked at.

[Maso]

Look, I don't care if you call me silly or stupid for posting about something I find rather annoying. But again it's also another one of the reasons I hate posting on the GDB because 80% of the GDB population degrade and insult you.

Hrm. I hear ya. I think it's because when they post something the same thing happens to them.

The spam look thing though...Seriously, just get used to it. Be proud. Revel in the attention for a brief moment until everyone has looked at you. :p

[Synthesis]

I love the fact that looks echo, because it basically lets me know whether I'm hidden or not.

Um..

Just because you have successfully hidden, doesn't mean my character can't see you.

from help scan:

This skill allows a keen use of observational techniques and good vision
to spot invisible and hidden persons. Any such persons will appear as
shadows or blurs only.

Dear, if you can see me with scan, it means I'm not hidden.

[Patuk]

Look, I don't care if you call me silly or stupid for posting about something I find rather annoying. But again it's also another one of the reasons I hate posting on the GDB because 80% of the GDB population degrade and insult you.

Hrm. I hear ya. I think it's because when they post something the same thing happens to them.

The spam look thing though...Seriously, just get used to it. Be proud. Revel in the attention for a brief moment until everyone has looked at you. :p

Yeah.

[solera]

emote is looking at a spot near the entry

over and over and over again, because change ldesc won't allow me to display that unless I'm standing up or sitting on the floor..

I never knew this until today.  All those sprawlings at the bar wasted.

[Nyr]

look thread