A Task System

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, no. I understand your thoughts here, but I do understand the need for a budget, even OOCly. You want to encourage politics for nobles and GMH leaders. A budget forces you to politic. Secondly, if we have unlimited money, then so do the underlings. Because then they can barter with us, instead of grabbing with eager hands for it might be gone soon.

No. A budget is needed. But that's not the issue. The issue is that nobles and GMH merchants are not rich, in game terms. And game terms should reflect IC world terms. In IC world terms, they are rich.

It could be as simple as halving current sell prices in NPC shops. That alone would introduce a vastly different economy for indies. The goal, as far as I am concerned, is to make clans easy and desirable, even OOCly, and to make indies hard and initially poor, and still keep the economy in balance. Clans are easy now but not desirable, and indies are hard now but rich.

[Patuk]

Well, no. I understand your thoughts here, but I do understand the need for a budget, even OOCly. You want to encourage politics for nobles and GMH leaders. A budget forces you to politic. Secondly, if we have unlimited money, then so do the underlings. Because then they can barter with us, instead of grabbing with eager hands for it might be gone soon.

If you're a noble, and you're going to not play politics simply because you already have money.. You're doing something wrong. Furthermore, politics like these are about far more than just money in the first place. I'm saying here that the amount of money a player may withdraw could easily be unlimited because realistically, you're never going to spend THAT much cash on anything, anyway. But in the grand scheme of things? The amounts of money, resources, men and alliances a noble house is tied to is laughable compared to what your PC can buy in shops and pay his underlings, and something any noble PC will get to deal with, if they like it or not.

The idea of underlings being paid too much simply because their bosses will be (mechanically) richer is one I don't see happening, either. Nothing changes ICly, and hired people definetly won't go 'but you have unlimited cash anywayyyyy' all of a sudden.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok. I'm not referring to politics in the sense of House vs House, necessarily. I mean politics in gaining the favor of the common man. Currently, if a noble says, we're offering a 1k bount on x's head, we know OOCly that the noble is committing a large portion of his available resources to catching this guy. This gives us a sense of the gravity of the situation, and we're shocked by the amount of coin offered. We know that we can go get that new piece of armor we want if we catch this guy, and we're gonna gain tons of favor with the said noble if we win.

With unlimited funds, we're going to be wondering why they are only offering 1k. Why not 4k, so I can get the whole suit of armor and pay for six months of my apartment. For all we know, the guy is probably just a deserter, and maybe not even that experienced. Shit, he might have already died to a scrab. We'll have less motivation to do it, because, relative to our knowledge of the noble's wealth, we understand that it's a small bounty.

What I'm suggesting, in making sid harder to garner for the common indie, is that that 1k allows you to now go get that mid-tier piece of armor that you would have had to bring in 20 hides for, instead of the ten you need to bring in now. I'm suggesting forcing indies to scrap and scrounge and survive until they really do become successful, while clan employees surf along at a decent pace because of their monthly income and their free food, water, and board.

In hand with such a change to the selling habits of the indie, is a change to food cost, in which it takes less sid to eat and drink, so as not to force PCs to starve just because of the change. In summary, if you reduce food and water and ale by a third, reduce npc sales by half, and leave everything else the exact same cost, I think you'll find more people clamoring to do the small jobs that nobles and rich people have to offer, and more appeal in playing the 'easy' game of being a noble house employee.

[Patuk]

Yeah, I.. I really don't see that happening already. Two situations:

Current system, Nobles have to acquire cash somehow:

Amos: Look, Lord Amos Borsail wants this Hasan guy dead. Bounty set at one large.

Malik: Woah man, one large? That's a -lot- of cash for a noble, let's totally get him!

Or.

My proposed system, nobles have a mechanic to withdraw cash at will:

Amos: Look, Lord Amos Borsail wants this Hasan guy dead. Bounty set at one large.

Malik: Pffff, one large? That's stingy, screw it, I'm just gonna sit at taverns and drink all day.



These both scenarios are awfully OOC in nature, and I don't like the idea behind the both of them. One large is a -lot- of cash in Zalanthas. Would your character go 'meh, stingy noble' or 'that guy could've easily doubled that bounty'? He wouldn't, he'd go 'damn, one large, MUST GET', and act accordingly. Not doing something because OOCly, you think someone is acting stingy, is really nothing short of metagaming.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I suppose you're right. I'm not sure I mean that to go the way I wrote it. Perhaps I should have said it like this.

1k bounty, currently. Well, I have to hunt down this guy by running all over the world, asking x and x and x if they have seen him. For 1k. Or, I could go kill x and x and x and sell x here, and x there, and have 2k. Probably take less time.

I'm suggesting that the 1k should look immensely larger to you. It should look more like it looks to an NPC, than it does to you. You can suggest it's a lot of money ICly as much as you want, but for a number of indies, it's not, and it might not be worth it, particularly if they don't care about the noble offering it.

The average NPC will probably kill a relative for 1k. Would you, the PC?

[Schrodingers Cat]

Nobles have the power and influence. Indies have the wealth and are relativly untethered fom politics.  If an enterprising noble could find something to offer indies they might find themselves in a profitable situation.

[Patuk]

I suppose you're right. I'm not sure I mean that to go the way I wrote it. Perhaps I should have said it like this.

1k bounty, currently. Well, I have to hunt down this guy by running all over the world, asking x and x and x if they have seen him. For 1k. Or, I could go kill x and x and x and sell x here, and x there, and have 2k. Probably take less time.

I'm suggesting that the 1k should look immensely larger to you. It should look more like it looks to an NPC, than it does to you. You can suggest it's a lot of money ICly as much as you want, but for a number of indies, it's not, and it might not be worth it, particularly if they don't care about the noble offering it.

The average NPC will probably kill a relative for 1k. Would you, the PC?

There. -That- is a real problem, but it doesn't relate to my suggestion concerning nobles and their wealth. This isn't just the independent merchants, though.. I find that most everyone is too rich for their own good. I've said this before, for a MUD that prides itself on such a harsh environment, making money is awfully easy in Zalanthas.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nobles have the power and influence. Indies have the wealth and are relatively untethered from politics.  If an enterprising noble could find something to offer indies they might find themselves in a profitable situation.

And I've done this before, to good effect, in fact. But there's a limit to what you can offer. The reality is that the noble should have the power, wealth and influence, and the indie should have freedom.

I find that most everyone is too rich for their own good. I've said this before, for a MUD that prides itself on such a harsh environment, making money is awfully easy in Zalanthas.

Yep. Look, for our current environment, your idea is probably the best. Nobles should have their stipend to spend solely upon themselves, their whores, their armor, clothes, food, etc, and unlimited (to a point) house funds to conduct events. When I played a noble, I did almost everything on my stipend or supplemented it with my stipend, which made doing things hard at times.

Nobles DO have access to a House Bank, though. They just have to have permission to use it, and during my tenure, the House Bank's limit was smallish.

I'd love to see a situation in which, e.g Tor was hard capped at 5 PCs, and people had to hope someone died to get in, and they really wanted to get in because the armor was better, the weapons were better, the food and water was free, and they had a place to store their stuff that was free(ish) from break ins. Clans should never have to 'recruit'. Rumor boards should talk about the newest noble's name to beg entry to the clan from, not that they are looking for 'men and women of discerning quality'.

[Maso]

I don't think one large is a lot of money. I also don't think nobles get anywhere near enough for their stipends. The Arm economy is a pretty complicated scenario to debate and I've just got off an 11 hour flight...but...an economy should be a living breathing thing...but in Arm it's not...it's fixed, in regards to what the clans get from the staff and in regards to the sell/buy prices in shops...But it can all be a little bit random...For example not particularly rare food stuffs or clothing (not silks) - being the same as a months rent in an 'alright' apartment.

Sometimes it just doesn't feel like it adds up.

I think moderately successful indie's should be left alone! Rather than make it harder for them to make coin (and probably lower the level enjoyment of their players)....just make nobles and GMH family members richer by default. Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

My brain isn't working.

[Kryos]

Its the whole bag of bricks:  costs of nurishing items IG, relative to the consumptive values and times for PCs.  Cost of storage, most of which is unsafe anyway and will end up costing you far more then rent alone.  Conversely, returns on selling things to shops, how much of what to where, and so on.

I think this is no simple matter.  A detailed, carefully observed plan would need to be engaged to balance this in what should be the correct flavor.

I think that flavor is that if you bust your chops in a clan, you will get just a bit more than enough to get by, and possibly get rewarded with gear, status, or more coin then they average bum.  If you really bust your ass as an indep you will get the more then scraping by but no perks.  

If you're an indep merchant, you should risk to gain, with greater risk and routes, greater rewards(meaning local goods in the same area are barely profitable, with consideration to components and investment).  Time, energy, bribes, and routes would need hashed out.  The additional difficulty is, to use a bit of hyperbole, that looking at a merchant might cause them to die and they are always very profitable.  Not a glass cannon, to use game jargon, but instead a glass piggy bank.  One part of that is good, and should encourage the whole buying friends/protectors.  The latter is bad, as, it negates the need for travel.  Further, the whole 'how dangerous is it out there' question applies here.  Is it dangerous enough to encourage(maybe require) merchants to have escort for their travel?

The nobles and GMH reps should get enough money to sway any one commoner easily, a few commoners possibly, and influence politics if carefully plied.  They too should have to work to do more.

Just my opinion/contribution to the discussion.

[Yam]

I'd honestly like to see the game balanced enough so that being in a clan was the most lucrative choice, and being an rich independant was hard, not easy. Yes, Templars can charge extra tax, etc, but ... I'd like to see it actually balanced that way. The reality exists that nobles are not the richest characters in the game, and neither of GMH merchants. It's indies. Yes, the balance of power is by blood and whatever, but I'd love to see nobles and GMH merchants having more power because they had the coin you want, too.

Those who are in clans shouldn't be able to do automated tasks. Even if you have to cheat and have the NPC check the player's pfile, instead of some IC articale of clothing or something, I'd retain those tasks for indies only, or certain clans, like Bynners and poop.

It definitely is the most lucrative choice. Independents who go around trying to acquire wealth or power have far shorter lifespans than their clanned counterparts.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Er. It's the safest choice. It's not the lucrative choice. Per hour played, indies will obtain more wealth.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think one large is a lot of money. I also don't think nobles get anywhere near enough for their stipends. The Arm economy is a pretty complicated scenario to debate and I've just got off an 11 hour flight...but...an economy should be a living breathing thing...but in Arm it's not...it's fixed, in regards to what the clans get from the staff and in regards to the sell/buy prices in shops...But it can all be a little bit random...For example not particularly rare food stuffs or clothing (not silks) - being the same as a months rent in an 'alright' apartment.

Sometimes it just doesn't feel like it adds up.

I think moderately successful indie's should be left alone! Rather than make it harder for them to make coin (and probably lower the level enjoyment of their players)....just make nobles and GMH family members richer by default. Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

My brain isn't working.

I think you make a good point here, and I also think there deserves to be some elaboration.

First off, money isn't a concern here.  Since resources are fixed, money operates much like in a free market, making it largely useless.

Typically, the ability to make money, and many other different things, could be considered a real resource.  Nobles have very few resources beyond money, group lodgings, and free time.  If anything, I'd give them properties for rent and special brokers to buy off a partisan's junk before I would give them more money..

[Patuk]

Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

No.

I'm fine with inflation. I'm fine with obsidian being devaluated. All of this is realistic, and can be RPed out accordingly. Unfortunately, a MUD doesn't work that way. One large might not be a lot of money when compared to the super-rich independent merchant over there, but it can still buy you a fuckton of food, water, and a nice apartment to go along with it. As long as prices are as they are, one large -is- a lot of money, no matter how you look at it.

[Kalai]

Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

No.

I'm fine with inflation. I'm fine with obsidian being devaluated. All of this is realistic, and can be RPed out accordingly. Unfortunately, a MUD doesn't work that way. One large might not be a lot of money when compared to the super-rich independent merchant over there, but it can still buy you a fuckton of food, water, and a nice apartment to go along with it. As long as prices are as they are, one large -is- a lot of money, no matter how you look at it.

So, 1-4 weeks' salary in this world.

Things get a bit odder with clothes.

[Cutthroat]

Er. It's the safest choice. It's not the lucrative choice. Per hour played, indies will obtain more wealth.

They can't do much with that wealth if they're dead, though. Nor can they really do anything with it while alive, besides buy stuff (at full price or higher), rent apartments for storage (that will be broken into), and maybe give money to important folks that start to get a very stabby feeling as they watch the wealth gather. They're rarely, if ever, going to be allowed in higher-level plots or given special treatment like clanned wealthy individuals for the simple fact that they can't be trusted with something like a wagon, a building, or a slave.

That said, clanned life is always going to be preferable for a player who wants a long-lived, well-involved character - it's just not as accessible to an off-peaker. Although the reasoning behind OP's idea is sound, I think there are enough hard-coded collection quests in-game for now, and more complicated work is going to be tough to code for minimal returns. What could be beneficial is having one or two off-peak sponsored role leader types in each major playing area that can hire other off-peakers and put them to a wide variety of work. I think off-peak leaders already exist to an extent, at least sometimes - but other off-peak players don't really take advantage of it.

[Red Ranger]

Independents who go around trying to acquire wealth or power have far shorter lifespans than their clanned counterparts.

They can't do much with that wealth if they're dead, though. Nor can they really do anything with it while alive, besides buy stuff (at full price or higher), rent apartments for storage (that will be broken into), and maybe give money to important folks that start to get a very stabby feeling as they watch the wealth gather. They're rarely, if ever, going to be allowed in higher-level plots or given special treatment like clanned wealthy individuals for the simple fact that they can't be trusted with something like a wagon, a building, or a slave.

That said, clanned life is always going to be preferable for a player who wants a long-lived, well-involved character...

Medichi, Khann, Garrick, and all the other legendary movers and shakers of the gameworld agree.  The average PC doesn't live very long.  Some manage to get wealthy during that inevitably short period of time, but that doesn't mean that they were Important.  In the ossified societies of Zalanthas, mere personal wealth does not equal importance, influence, or power.  To me it's as though IRL you could get rich quickly off of digging for gold in minefields with your friends, but that gold won't make you a Senator or a CEO or the chief of police even if it transiently makes your checking account larger than theirs, and it's inevitable that you're gonna get blown to bits soon on one of your gold digs.  Of course every player plays for different reasons and derives fun from different in-game activities, and maybe the majority of players have an OOC goal of a large IC bank account, but we seem to be focusing on those IC lunatics that keep going out into the minefield.  Despite that seeming focus on money as an end in itself (perhaps because of the importance of money in our modern RL lives), in the long term I think that the game still actually does a good job of distinguishing between fleetingly wealthy indies and the Powers that Be who are pulling the strings (see the names above). 

Clans should never have to 'recruit'. Rumor boards should talk about the newest noble's name to beg entry to the clan from, not that they are looking for 'men and women of discerning quality'.

Preach the gospel!  IC'ly it should be a "buyer's market" that favors the clan recruiters out there.

Those who are in clans shouldn't be able to do automated tasks. Even if you have to cheat and have the NPC check the player's pfile, instead of some IC articale of clothing or something, I'd retain those tasks for indies only, or certain clans, like Bynners and poop.

I disagree.  If you're wanting to make clans more attractive to PCs and more lucrative (because of the OOC focus on money), why not add the automated tasks inside the clans to provide coin bonuses to clanned PCs for doing those automated tasks?

Like Nyr, I'm not against automated tasks as such.  What I'm against are automated tasks that feel OOC'ly motivated and video-gamey (i.e. killing advancing "levels" of creatures), and what I'm for are automated tasks that make sense in the game world.  What I'm really for are automated tasks that actually add to the gameworld and flesh out things that are currently only virtual.

As an example of an automated intraclan task that would make real something that is currently (mostly) virtual, I suggest coded deliveries within the GMH clans.  Kadians PCs might be able to transport wood from Tuluk to a clan facility in Allanak and be paid for their trouble.  The same might work for Salarris transporting obsidian from Allanak to a clan stockpile in Tuluk and for Kuracis moving spice from Red Storm to clan warehouses in Luir's or Tuluk (or Allanak...).  In my mind, the GMH's are all constantly bustling with travel and activity so these sorts of world-spanning deliveries are happening on a weekly basis IC'ly, but right now it's mostly virtual and I think it would be fun to involve PCs in these rote tasks that are nonetheless necessary for the GMH clans IC'ly.  Maybe doing these delivery tasks wouldn't even result in automatic pay, just automatic tokens that require RP with a PC leader who could then issue a bonus as she/he deems fit.  "Only fifteen delivery tokens in the last month, Hunter?  You're slacking, no bonus pay for you."

All that said, I ultimately don't find the addition of any automated tasks to be really urgent for all the reasons previously mentioned in the thread.  Neat suggestion!  Just not a pressing issue in my eyes.

[Patuk]

I think off-peak leaders already exist to an extent, at least sometimes - but other off-peak players don't really take advantage of it.

Off-peakers aren't all gathered in some kind of club, you know. The only way of knowing that other people are around I have is the WHO command, and even that doesn't tell me much. I'd -love- to find people with playtimes more suited to mine, but really, how am I supposed to find them somehow?

[RogueGunslinger]

The only way of knowing that other people are around I have is the WHO command, and even that doesn't tell me much. I'd -love- to find people with playtimes more suited to mine, but really, how am I supposed to find them somehow?

You find someone you like roleplaying with, and then OOC: Hey, if you don't mind, what's your standard playtimes so we can meet up more?

And then just 'contact person' during those times to see if they're on for some interaction.

[Patuk]

That's another matter than 'there's offpeak leaders already, I've no idea why offpeakers just don't go there.'

Yes, you can ask people for playtimes. But when you -don't- know anyone, and can't find anyone either.. You can't simply go around waying random people.

[Nyr]

You would have better luck going where the PCs are when you are playing, and sometimes that takes some trial and error (or maybe a chat with staff via the request tool, they might be able to help).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Excellent point about retention.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm all for an automated task sort of thing that allows people to come together and meet up in a place. Sadly most of the ones in the game currently only spread people out, or put them in places too dangerous for someone to want to go to to socialize. There's a reason why the taverns are the place you're most likely to run into someone.

The more of these sorts of automated tasks you put in the more chances for players to dilute further, because they will have a plethora of options to be spread out among.

That's what I'm talking about when I say this will cause less interaction, instead of more. And I seriously doubt the amount of retention you will get from adding more of them will make up for that dilution.

[Maso]

And I seriously doubt the amount of retention you will get from adding more of them will make up for that dilution.

Data to back up this statement please.

[RogueGunslinger]

... Just think about that for a moment. And you'll realize how that's impossible.

However I can illustrate the point pretty easily: People who are going to leave because of not enough things to do in the game while offpeak, won't be impressed by one or two more salt-mining jobs. After all, they could just go salt mining. People who want to do things while off-peak generally want to play with other players, more so than they want to have another boring repetitive grind to make a few 'sids for.

If you add more of these things that pull people away from eachother, that person who's bored is going to have a harder time finding said people, and thus, in the long run, possibly want to leave the game even more. Sure, it's speculation. But it at least makes more sense to me and is less intangible than "if you add more meaningless grind jobs for people then they will want to play more instead of leaving"

It's sort of like a rookie ranger trying to bandage you for the first time. You have a chance of helping the problem, sure, but you also have a chance of making the wound even bigger. And you're not really even trying to bandage the problem of player retention, you actually trying to bandage the problem of people being bored when no one else is around. Don't you think we should address that 'no one being around' problem first?