A Task System

[hatchets]

I really do enjoy Armageddon. But sadly, when there is noone around. I am horrifically bored. While one of the neatest things about Zalanthas is how strong everything you run into can be, it also is a detriment. (Hard to explore solo without dieing) So I was thinking some sort of, city/clan task system would be enough to spice things up. What it would entail I imagine would probably be better suggested by older players.

In previous muds I have played, there have been NPC's whom collected rare/unique items. Some of items could only be gained on a specific day from a specific city (festivals normally, such as Goblin' Whomping Day in the Dwarven Home Town, you might get a Whompin' Club. Which would only occur one day out of the whole IC year) Gave you stuff to shoot for, and gave other PC's stuff to hold onto and barter off.

There have been tasks, which increase in difficulty as you progress. It might start out with, kill a rabbit, and then move on to a deer, boar, bear, Ogre, Demon ect...

There have been 'delivery' tasks. In which one NPC citizen asks you to deliver a crap item to another NPC citizen, giving you a small description or a name. And you gotta run around town looking to deliver it.

There have been Bounty Hunter Tasks. Given permission to hunt down a specific NPC without getting criminalized for taking them in, dead or alive (rewarded of course less if dead) Sometimes the NPC wasn't just a city side crook, he'd venture out into the world and you'd have to hunt him down. (Last seen east of the Elven City)

There have was also an 'achievements' command for all of this. Which would list things like, deadliest creature you have killed (if you were teamed with multiple people think only a % of the value of 'danger' was given to you, so if a rabbit has a value of 2 and 4 people team up to kill it, they get .5 value for it, where as a person who goes out and kills a rabbit on their own would get the whole 2 value) It also had things like, the healthiest Food you have ever cooked (game had alot of health related to food, inproper nutrition would cause sicknesses, including a cold, nothing like sneezing right before you sneak up on a target in the shadows to assassinate them) One of my favorite achievements was the % of the world explored. each 'room' was worth a fraction of a percent, and youd explore and could then relate to how much of the world that character has actually seen.

There was also work to be done in the different cities one was as a cook for a restraunt, which you'd have to prepare different types of food, an NPC would show up and purchase what they wanted, but if you didn't have what they wanted ready you'd be docked pay and discredited as a cook after to many. And another was working as a Mortician's Aide, Guards would bring in dead bodies and put them on a cart, youd have 3 carts. You could send the body to the mortician or to the morticians aide, the mortician of course worked faster. They would determine if the corpse was diseased, or just regularly dead (diseased had to be cremated and took longer to dispose of) and in the mean time youd have to keep the carts clean for the next body so you wouldnt cross contaminate. (could be quite enthralling to keep up with the mess) If you completed X number of either type successfully, youd start to unlock an underground trade market, just for a few semi unique items. Maybe trade a rope belt for a red rope belt, with the insignia of the Goblin Traders on it. Shows you have worked well for them ect...

These are just a few things from previous muds that have helped keep me busy in down time. And helped lead to plans of Adventuring. When there are players around to play with, I am easily excited to interact with them, without them, I find theres little to do unless you go 'forage' for hours and hours which just gets redundant.

In a game like Zalanthas I could easily see a Task giving NPC for the different clans/houses/cities. Tasks moldable to each clan. Maybe once in a while an NPC merchant brings out a few rare items or something, or brings out lots of coins to buy rare items, and hires body guards prior to it. It is a very rough idea, and not very filled in towards Zalanthas since I don't know all of what is out there, perhaps more experienced players already have some such ideas.

Rewards are equally left open. Perhaps some sorta special city reward tokens that are traded in at a specific city shop designed to reward those whom serve Tek/Mek/ the sub cities leaders. Some tasks might simply be some coin for reward. Like I said, just a rough idea, would like to hear what others would suggest for it.

[Maso]

I wouldn't actually mind seeing a few 'coded' jobs, like the mortician one, scattered throughout the game. Most of the non-PC related, non-clan, lower skill jobs you can do in Zalanthas pretty much involve going and collecting something (dung, salt, cotton, whatever) and taking it back to an NPC for not very much 'sid.

Something that was a little more involved would be great. However, I'm pretty sure it will be considered that the game is fine as it is, and that your off-peak time should be used for solo-RP.

[Creslin]

I would enjoy something like this. On a somewhat related but off-topic note, it would be cool if you could hire NPC mercenaries for X coins to serve you for Y days and basically can order them around much like Militia / Templars can order NPC soldiers / guards.   

Tasks where you have to do escort missions would be hella cool, escorting a merchant wagon from Allanak to Luir's for example. Would open up many more opportunities for raiders too. 

Unfortunately this kind of stuff would take a lot of work and I doubt it will be added. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Eh. No thanks. I'd hate for stuff like this to take away player interaction. I imagine a scenario where people grind these little tasks for their benefits, instead of looking for people to interact with.

[A Large Bag]

Eh. No thanks. I'd hate for stuff like this to take away player interaction. I imagine a scenario where people grind these little tasks for their benefits, instead of looking for people to interact with.

Pretty much my thoughts too.

[jstorrie]

I feel like accessible automated quests would sort of detract from the whole the-world-is-a-blasted-hellscape feeling.

There are plenty of little things to do that you can do alone:

- explore, finding rare resources outside (like rare poisons, herbs, mineral deposits, gemstones, etc.)
- the various 'get stuff' jobs like salting, mining, and so on
- hunt
- raid gith / tribals
- craft
- trade between different areas

Players of authority figures like nobles and templars could stand to hand out a few more 'quests' for the little guys, though. Whenever I'm in that position, I try to make a habit of creating tasks that unaffiliated or off-peak players can pick up.

[Bushranger]

In previous muds I have played, there have been NPC's whom collected rare/unique items. Some of items could only be gained on a specific day from a specific city (festivals normally, such as Goblin' Whomping Day in the Dwarven Home Town, you might get a Whompin' Club. Which would only occur one day out of the whole IC year) Gave you stuff to shoot for, and gave other PC's stuff to hold onto and barter off.

I really prefer the current system Armageddon MUD has where there are rare/unique items that come out only once ever or on special festivals like LuirsFest which takes players to organize and run. These almost always try to cater at least one or two events for when off peak players like myself can attend. Much nicer for an RPI than an automated NPCs come out dressed as tribal elves on this one day of the year every year with or without player involvement, and it makes the rare/unique items from these events even more special when you manage to obtain one.

Armageddon MUD also has even more rare/unique items that are sometimes passed down from player to player, through PK and trade, that have grown histories for themselves. A certain chair comes to mind as does a few of the metal items. Try for one of those nifty copper daggers  

There have been 'delivery' tasks. In which one NPC citizen asks you to deliver a crap item to another NPC citizen, giving you a small description or a name. And you gotta run around town looking to deliver it.

There have been Bounty Hunter Tasks. Given permission to hunt down a specific NPC without getting criminalized for taking them in, dead or alive (rewarded of course less if dead) Sometimes the NPC wasn't just a city side crook, he'd venture out into the world and you'd have to hunt him down. (Last seen east of the Elven City)

This is the kind of thing I much prefer come from players. I agree with jstorrie and RogueGunslinger here.

There have was also an 'achievements' command for all of this. Which would list things like, deadliest creature you have killed (if you were teamed with multiple people think only a % of the value of 'danger' was given to you, so if a rabbit has a value of 2 and 4 people team up to kill it, they get .5 value for it, where as a person who goes out and kills a rabbit on their own would get the whole 2 value) It also had things like, the healthiest Food you have ever cooked (game had alot of health related to food, inproper nutrition would cause sicknesses, including a cold, nothing like sneezing right before you sneak up on a target in the shadows to assassinate them) One of my favorite achievements was the % of the world explored. each 'room' was worth a fraction of a percent, and youd explore and could then relate to how much of the world that character has actually seen.

There was also work to be done in the different cities one was as a cook for a restraunt, which you'd have to prepare different types of food, an NPC would show up and purchase what they wanted, but if you didn't have what they wanted ready you'd be docked pay and discredited as a cook after to many. And another was working as a Mortician's Aide, Guards would bring in dead bodies and put them on a cart, youd have 3 carts. You could send the body to the mortician or to the morticians aide, the mortician of course worked faster. They would determine if the corpse was diseased, or just regularly dead (diseased had to be cremated and took longer to dispose of) and in the mean time youd have to keep the carts clean for the next body so you wouldnt cross contaminate. (could be quite enthralling to keep up with the mess) If you completed X number of either type successfully, youd start to unlock an underground trade market, just for a few semi unique items. Maybe trade a rope belt for a red rope belt, with the insignia of the Goblin Traders on it. Shows you have worked well for them ect...

No. Just no. I really don't want to have people zooming around for some sort of achievement mini-game with no regard for RP. "I'm an aide to Lord Winrothol, but I'm out here in the Silt Sea because killing a silt horror is next on my achievement list." really isn't something I'd like to hear. You can be a cook in game already, join a clan (official or unofficial), it is even a great job for an off-peak player as you can log in to find a kitchen full of raw meat, fruit and vegetables the clan hunters have brought in and then do some solo RP cooking it all up to stock the shelves for the rest of the clan when they log in. I don't want jobs to just be a part of some achievement list for characters though where everyone has been a beggar, cook, cleaner, dung hauler, salt collector, obsidian miner, cotton picker, clay digger - pick roles that are In Character.

In a game like Zalanthas I could easily see a Task giving NPC for the different clans/houses/cities. Tasks moldable to each clan. Maybe once in a while an NPC merchant brings out a few rare items or something, or brings out lots of coins to buy rare items, and hires body guards prior to it. It is a very rough idea, and not very filled in towards Zalanthas since I don't know all of what is out there, perhaps more experienced players already have some such ideas.

Rewards are equally left open. Perhaps some sorta special city reward tokens that are traded in at a specific city shop designed to reward those whom serve Tek/Mek/ the sub cities leaders. Some tasks might simply be some coin for reward. Like I said, just a rough idea, would like to hear what others would suggest for it.

Rewards should not be open, I really don't want to see any kind of token system so every warrior can get level 9 raid armor set from killing rats in the sewers to collect tokens from NPC Lord Templar Whosit. This is Armageddon. Rewards should be sparse and hard to get, rewards that are worth anything that is.

[tiptoe]

I really do enjoy Armageddon. But sadly, when there is noone around. I am horrifically bored. While one of the neatest things about Zalanthas is how strong everything you run into can be, it also is a detriment. (Hard to explore solo without dieing) So I was thinking some sort of, city/clan task system would be enough to spice things up. What it would entail I imagine would probably be better suggested by older players.

My best advice for an off-peak player is a ranger-type guild with a crafting-type subguild and starting in the North. While many creatures are too difficult, there are quite a few near Tuluk that are much easier. It can be pretty entertaining figuring out which ones are. Explore and test the waters. In downtime, find materials and make shit. In the beginning, for me, it was more about seeing how long I could keep a character alive. Once you get past that initial hardship of finding enough coin to keep yourself fed/watered, you'll discover there are many other facets to the game, and many other things you don't need other players to enjoy.

Don't be dependent on others for your entertainment. It's all about making your own fun.

More on topic with your suggestion...I think a task system would take a lot away from the game itself. Armageddon is a role play intensive MUD. I feel that automated quest-giving NPCs really would detract from the whole experience. There's plenty of busy-work to be found in salting, clay digging, poop scooping, cotton picking, and spice sifting.

But don't get discouraged is the main thing. Most MUDs get us very used to having very specific tasks to complete before you can move further in the game. Here, you have the freedom to decide your own tasks. Set goals for yourself like collecting X amount of obsidian, figuring out how to make X item, joining X clan, etc.

[EldritchOrigins]

Back in the day, House Kadius used to have weekly orders that needed to be filled.  These orders were unique and changed each week.  Players that were able to fill the orders were given bonuses as compensation.  However if the orders weren't filled by players, it was assumed that the house was somehow able to fill these orders from some other means (NPC or virtual sources).

For example lets say some virtual member of House Nenyuk ordered a snakeskin bound ledger.  House Kadius would award cash bonuses to house hunters (or any house member really) that brought in a certain amount of snake skins.  This could mean they hunted the snakes down themselves or bought them from someone else.  However the would acquire the item didn't matter.  The idea was that this gave players some kind of objective that they could peruse on their own but at the same time being optional instead of become some kind of busy work that had to be accomplished each week.

Other examples might be sapphires, vestric feathers, bahamet shells, jozhal hides, tribal clothing, marble, anything really that the house might need to fill an order.

The best part about this was that most, if not all of the orders were for virtual customers.  This really helped me as a player by drawing my attention to the virtual world and how active and robust it really is, but by not using my imagination to envision the virtual world, I really limit myself and my creativity in game.


What some of you are probably thinking is that this isn't code driven, and you're right.  I that some sort of coded quest system would detract from the social aspect of the game by taking the focus away from roleplaying with others.  However this might be different if the tasks somehow involving multiple parties.

As for achievements, I think they'd also take the focus off of roleplaying.  Sure this would give us something to do, but it might also create a mentality of racking up achievements would shift the focus from roleplaying (unless of course one is playing a dwarf following their own focus.

There could stand to be more of the automated gathering quests though (mining obsidian/glass, lumber jacking, gathering salt, digging for clay or amicably picking cotton.  These seem to be realistic for roleplay and also providing rewarding activities for when things are slow.

[Potaje]

However, a Pc (or pcs) could be the ones to initiated such things for other players.

Even the mortician thing, though I doubt many would be so obvious with letting themselves be known, I could still see a Nilazi posing as a mortician. hiring folks to haul bodies or assist in this or that.

But still, Pc to pc is best, and it does seem there are several off peakers, so they just need to find each other and make these things happen.

[hatchets]

Eh. No thanks. I'd hate for stuff like this to take away player interaction. I imagine a scenario where people grind these little tasks for their benefits, instead of looking for people to interact with.

Guess you missed the part where its not meant to take away from the player interaction but rather to be something to fill the void when there is no interaction to be found. Sorry but the game is complete crap when noone is around in the morning hours, cept for a random fellow whom looks at you in passing and runs along.

Foraging crap is already redundant and in alot of situations unrealistic. The Obsidian Lode appears in the same spot every time to go bash it. The cave never runs out of shards and stones. You can forage for days. The salt is generally slave work, but thats cool cause you can make 1000 sid an IC day doing it (which ruins the whole idea that making a living is hard to come by anyways)

I am not talking about quests and tasks that would make you run around and do them all the time. I am talking about having it as an option, and not with some over powering reward for doing them.

I feel like accessible automated quests would sort of detract from the whole the-world-is-a-blasted-hellscape feeling.

There are plenty of little things to do that you can do alone:

- explore, finding rare resources outside (like rare poisons, herbs, mineral deposits, gemstones, etc.)
- the various 'get stuff' jobs like salting, mining, and so on
- hunt
- raid gith / tribals
- craft
- trade between different areas

Players of authority figures like nobles and templars could stand to hand out a few more 'quests' for the little guys, though. Whenever I'm in that position, I try to make a habit of creating tasks that unaffiliated or off-peak players can pick up.

Again, this was focused more towards solo RPing, which hunting, raiding, and trading can all kill you if you haven't been around a while and trained your skills up. Personally, I am tired of sitting around for 3-5 hours a day, waiting for someone in my clan to show up to 'training' and then sometimes it doesn't even happen till an 'off day' which then I have to wait another 3 hours to get back to a 'training day' and folks aren't feeling up for doing anything except sitting in the tavern talking shit.

'get stuff' jobs I mentioned above. They are not involving enough, they are repetative operations, which while yes I can set a trigger up to keep doing them, and hope someone shows up to RP with, I have already fallen asleep waiting, so I don't use triggers for it anymore.

While yes, it would be ideal that players in leading positions would create tasks. It again comes  back to off peak solo RP. Or even Peak Solo RP if the player isn't in the mood to deal with people. (anyone who has ever played muds for an extended period of time has reached the point where they just feel off, or pissed or some such over real life and feel they wouldn't play their character appropriately in their current state of mind so finds solo busy work to do instead of interacting with others) Which it is better to have them in the game for the chance interaction, (perhaps one that even brightens their mood) then to have them just not log in.

Rewards should not be open, I really don't want to see any kind of token system so every warrior can get level 9 raid armor set from killing rats in the sewers to collect tokens from NPC Lord Templar Whosit. This is Armageddon. Rewards should be sparse and hard to get, rewards that are worth anything that is.

The idea isn't to have some over powered reward system. Again the idea is to create some sub busy work for solo RP that isn't as mind numbing as salting for a few hours to make an rediculous amount of coins in a game, as you put it, where rewards should be sparse. Everyone talks about how hard it is to provide food and water for your character, when its not at all. Maybe if there were raiders whom posted up around salting areas, but as of yet I ain't seen any. Not sure how much shoveling poop pays, but from experience, in about thirty minutes or so of salting I can make 500-1000 coin. I just have to stay awake through the mind numbing problem.

Rewards in previous muds were things as simple as a water token, fill a container with 3 drinks of water. A canteen of soup.

Reward 'tokens' could even be player traded in some instances. Maybe House Salarr provides discounts to Salarr tokens provided as proof of services rendered to House Salarr, even if menial in task. Sky is really the limit. Its no different then the soapstone coins you get from that one guy, cept with more possibilities.

But still, Pc to pc is best, and it does seem there are several off peakers, so they just need to find each other and make these things happen.

Of course PC to PC is best. No arguement against it. And as for 'several off peakers' I sign on and type who, and see 13 people online sometimes, luckily I don't only sign on in off peak times I get the benefit of having enough free time at the moment to sign on through out the day. Now there are easily more then 13 clans. So with some luck MAYBE, 2 people are in the same clan. Because the average breaks down to be less then 1 person per clan. So if you are one of the lucky ones this time and have 2 people in the same clan, maybe you have some pc on pc interaction. But otherwise, your only hope is to hope you can go sit in a tavern, and someone shows up, and considering the number of taverns, and cities, you may be lucky if there is even another person in your town at the time, let alone, in the same bar. So you bar hop, to see if someone is in another one. In a game where there is supposed to be an bustling virtual world, npcs every where, but no real interaction with them, you shouldn't feel alone and more importantly stuck. You cannot hardly consider it RP, that your character hops from bar to bar to bar looking to find someone to talk to (and sometimes theres not even much of a conversation to be had, you look at then with some clever add on, squinting or some such, they look at you. Maybe you nod to each other, then one of you stands up and walks out after the silence becomes boring.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've always supported automated quests. It's pretty simple to come up with good ideas that are not grand, and that'll offer entertainment for off-peak players or those in more isolated places, like Red Storm or Cenyr and such. It's not hard to come up with multitudes of realistic IC tasks that won't make you rich. Some could be pretty dangerous, even.

What's more, you don't have to do the quests alone. If you and a buddy are around, maybe you two can go collect that weed the local baker needs. It gives you a IC reason to go do this, experience that, and do this. What's more, it's a in-game goal, and can be used to flesh out the world even more than now.

People worry about PC interaction, but if I'm honest, I think it'll promote PC interaction in ways that don't currently exist. Sometimes players need a reason to be - automated quests are a reason to be.

PC jobs will always be more lucrative, but I absolutely support the subsystem of automated tasks.

Uhm, no achievements. That's too lame. Armageddon is just not that sort of game.

[Dar]

I am all for tiny little, not very profitable quests like that that help players (newbie or otherwise) get the feel of a bustling economy that includes houses that are virtual.


I all for Jal to announce that they will kill anyone that brings them yet another bit of salt too. 1.5k every 2 rl hours is not something I consider a good idea. Yes, you need to be skilled and very spammy to get those numbers, but they're sure as hell possible enough to turn a 5 day ranger into (pfffth, I dont need your sid mr Noble) dude.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I all for Jal to announce that they will kill anyone that brings them yet another bit of salt too. 1.5k every 2 rl hours is not something I consider a good idea. Yes, you need to be skilled and very spammy to get those numbers, but they're sure as hell possible enough to turn a 5 day ranger into (pfffth, I dont need your sid mr Noble) dude.

Gawd yes. I really do wish the economy was balanced differently.

[Maso]

Meh, the economy is a hard one. For the less spammy players it's hard to earn enough just to stop your character from starving - never mind move them forwards. And a cushty clan isn't always a viable option...

[Nyr]

Actually, all of the automated jobs have been recently rebalanced.  We enabled tracking on them, toned down the ones that were making too much money, and amped up one that was making too little money.  The automated jobs that you can do on your own reflect the difficulty of the task.  Cotton picking, poop scooping, and clay digging are all lower-yield.  Salt-grebbing, glass mining, obsidian mining, and spice grebbing are all higher-yield.  If you spend a reasonable amount of time per RL day working on the higher-yield stuff, you can make a living off of it and also have plenty of time to play.  In fact, these are designed with independents in mind--the idea being to spend some time making 'sid, then some time enjoying the use of that 'sid for other things.

Anyway, part of that rebalancing means you can't make 1000 sid per day salting.  It has been toned back to be more reasonable.

We already do have a scant few of these automated "quests" in game.  This isn't a bad idea to expand into places where it makes sense.  The question then is time, effort, and agenda for the project for whomever might be over such things.

However, you also seem to indicate that it's difficult to connect with clanmates.  Might I suggest leaving your clan (if ICly feasible) or storing the PC?  If you can't find your clannies on a regular basis, they are off-peak, you are off-peak, they don't play much, or you don't play much.  One of these is true.  You would have better luck going where the PCs are when you are playing, and sometimes that takes some trial and error (or maybe a chat with staff via the request tool, they might be able to help).  Then having this quest system becomes more of an idle want rather than a need that is not being met by your current play.

[Jeshin]

To confirm Nyr's post (not that he needs it), salt grebbing is now capped out at roughly 400+. I saw 400+ because I don't want to give a specific number but rest assure you can no longer net 1000 sid even with high forage or luck on which salt you pick up.

[Dakota]

This thread makes me want to app for the next roll call thinking their would be hope for an active, off-peak leadership position in a mid-high traffic clan.

[hatchets]

However, you also seem to indicate that it's difficult to connect with clanmates.  Might I suggest leaving your clan (if ICly feasible) or storing the PC?  If you can't find your clannies on a regular basis, they are off-peak, you are off-peak, they don't play much, or you don't play much.  One of these is true.  You would have better luck going where the PCs are when you are playing, and sometimes that takes some trial and error (or maybe a chat with staff via the request tool, they might be able to help).  Then having this quest system becomes more of an idle want rather than a need that is not being met by your current play.

While it is a solid suggestion by some situations. I do not have trouble connecting to clan mates all the time. I am not strictly an off peak player thankfully. I mean yes, I could just choose not to log in till peak time, run off a couple peak hours, then stop playing and repeat. But somedays I have the day to myself (seeming to be more often now that my sister is back to watching her kids) So I get up early, no kids to deal with, nothing interesting on TV, and lots of armageddon to sit around idly waiting. Again, it is not to say I don't get interaction with clan mates, cause I do soon as it starts getting closer to peak play times, lots of interaction some days. Just have to wait 3-5 hours for it.

[Semper]

However, you also seem to indicate that it's difficult to connect with clanmates.  Might I suggest leaving your clan (if ICly feasible) or storing the PC?  If you can't find your clannies on a regular basis, they are off-peak, you are off-peak, they don't play much, or you don't play much.  One of these is true.  You would have better luck going where the PCs are when you are playing, and sometimes that takes some trial and error (or maybe a chat with staff via the request tool, they might be able to help).  Then having this quest system becomes more of an idle want rather than a need that is not being met by your current play.

While it is a solid suggestion by some situations. I do not have trouble connecting to clan mates all the time. I am not strictly an off peak player thankfully. I mean yes, I could just choose not to log in till peak time, run off a couple peak hours, then stop playing and repeat. But somedays I have the day to myself (seeming to be more often now that my sister is back to watching her kids) So I get up early, no kids to deal with, nothing interesting on TV, and lots of armageddon to sit around idly waiting. Again, it is not to say I don't get interaction with clan mates, cause I do soon as it starts getting closer to peak play times, lots of interaction some days. Just have to wait 3-5 hours for it.

Ranger, magicker, crafter. Those three come to mind immediately. If you /are/ one of these guilds/subguilds and/or solo-rp is not your thing, find ways to get the off-peak players together and run a plot. If your clan doesn't allow it, talk to staff or store your character if it's becoming a bother. Go ask a willing noble or merchant family PC for a little task to do, and gather people to do it.

Seems kind of straight-forward to me. Just gotta be willing to experiment or go out of your comfort zone. 

[hatchets]

However, you also seem to indicate that it's difficult to connect with clanmates.  Might I suggest leaving your clan (if ICly feasible) or storing the PC?  If you can't find your clannies on a regular basis, they are off-peak, you are off-peak, they don't play much, or you don't play much.  One of these is true.  You would have better luck going where the PCs are when you are playing, and sometimes that takes some trial and error (or maybe a chat with staff via the request tool, they might be able to help).  Then having this quest system becomes more of an idle want rather than a need that is not being met by your current play.

While it is a solid suggestion by some situations. I do not have trouble connecting to clan mates all the time. I am not strictly an off peak player thankfully. I mean yes, I could just choose not to log in till peak time, run off a couple peak hours, then stop playing and repeat. But somedays I have the day to myself (seeming to be more often now that my sister is back to watching her kids) So I get up early, no kids to deal with, nothing interesting on TV, and lots of armageddon to sit around idly waiting. Again, it is not to say I don't get interaction with clan mates, cause I do soon as it starts getting closer to peak play times, lots of interaction some days. Just have to wait 3-5 hours for it.

Ranger, magicker, crafter. Those three come to mind immediately. If you /are/ one of these guilds/subguilds and/or solo-rp is not your thing, find ways to get the off-peak players together and run a plot. If your clan doesn't allow it, talk to staff or store your character if it's becoming a bother. Go ask a willing noble or merchant family PC for a little task to do, and gather people to do it.

Seems kind of straight-forward to me. Just gotta be willing to experiment or go out of your comfort zone. 

Changing character guild/subguild isn't going to really do anything for me. 'solo rp' There really isn't any. You can forage for hours and hours and hours, or you can idle. Finding the off-peak players sounds good, except again, you missed the pryer mention that there are 13 people online. You are lucky if 2 of those people are even in the same city as you, depending on the city you chose. Let alone that your character will even relate to them in any real fashion. It isn't about experimenting or going out of my comfort zone.

I have played muds for 16 years, I have played many different muds, many different characters. I enjoy roleplaying, I enjoy starting plots or as I call it stirring the pot. To even listen to folks suggest that somehow its my fault by my choice of guild/subguild/ or even worse, my own lack of 'trying' is simply absurd and insulting to say the least and likely to drive off more folks then it attracts even if its meant to be helpful. This coding suggestion was not a "im bored and cant find anything to do ever" thread, it is a suggestion to add more spice to the game, especially for those people whom are playing in the down time which I have been recently having more experience with.

What some of you do not seem to realize is Down Time is not always simply because there are no players around, a character could be in down time smack dead in the middle of peak. This comes about from a player whom is playing a specific type of character whom has no real desire to interact with the general masses, but enjoys their RP with the click they have gotten in with. It just so happens that the click is not around today for whatever reason, now a player is left with two options, either don't play, or break the RP he has taken the time to develop. This coding suggestion is a third option, a way of finding stuff to do. If they are, for example, a clan of elves, whom should, by the help files, not be trusting of everyone, it might be nice if an npc of their clan, had little tasks to do, with small rewards (NOT OVER POWERING REWARDS) for doing them. Cause simply saying "Well its your own fault if you can't find anything to do at those times, maybe you just shouldn't play that character at those times then." Really doesn't sound like anyone is enticing those players to actually play. Rather to stop playing until that peak window.

[Synthesis]

Most of this should be handled by your clan leadership.  You don't need automated tasks.  All you need is a post on your clan board that says "do [task] by [deadline]."

Beyond that, it's just a matter of someone giving you the leeway to do it.  If you prove to your bosses that you aren't an idiot, they usually will waive the idiot rules for you and let you do whatever, as long as a) you're useful and b) you maintain your non-idiot status.

[Nyr]

I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that you try to fit your style of play and your availability of play to the role you wish to play rather than the other way around.  No one is saying you need to avoid logging in.  The suggestions have been to find a role that suits that kind of play. 

If the problem is off-peak player activity, you should definitely look into a role that is more conducive to that.  This may be more of an independent role or a role in a clan that has more off-peak players.

If the problem is that you play more than the PCs you are currently playing around, that is a different issue.  You can't mix up the two issues here because the solutions are going to be different for both.  This issue might be helped by the system you have proposed.  It also might be helped by freeing up the IC limitations on your role (that may be addressed in the process of playing the current PC or by working on a new one).

Some of the things you have suggested for tasks seen in other games are not feasible for the game.  Percentage of the world explored/deadliest creature killed/healthiest food crafted achievements?  In an RPI, you can just lie and say you did those things.  Sure, we can code it up, but it doesn't make much sense to do that.  Kill different stuff that gradually gets harder and harder as a bounty system?  In the first place we do not have a level-based system in this game (and would not implement one).  Templars, nobility, or practically anyone with the 'sid to do it can put up an IC rumor board post detailing their bounty on something.  This has been done by PCs before and it can continue to follow that line (there are actually posts on boards now detailing exactly this).

Some of the things you have suggested might be feasible for the game.  Delivery tasks?  Sounds reasonable.  Automated jobs working temporarily for someone?  There's framework for this concept already in place, though not necessarily ready for implementation in the current engine or the Javamug engine. 

Unfortunately, all of the ideas that are feasible along these lines are not going to be implemented overnight, nor is there a guarantee they'd be implemented at all.  In the absence of those ideas fleshed out and in-game...yes.  You do have to make choices concerning what works for your playstyle, as well as your available playtimes.  No one is advocating that you just not play, they're just trying to find options for you in the interim--or options that use what is already available.  They're not trying to be insulting about it, they're just trying to help you with what is already there. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd honestly like to see the game balanced enough so that being in a clan was the most lucrative choice, and being an rich independant was hard, not easy. Yes, Templars can charge extra tax, etc, but ... I'd like to see it actually balanced that way. The reality exists that nobles are not the richest characters in the game, and neither of GMH merchants. It's indies. Yes, the balance of power is by blood and whatever, but I'd love to see nobles and GMH merchants having more power because they had the coin you want, too.

Those who are in clans shouldn't be able to do automated tasks. Even if you have to cheat and have the NPC check the player's pfile, instead of some IC articale of clothing or something, I'd retain those tasks for indies only, or certain clans, like Bynners and poop.

[Patuk]

I'm honestly of the opinion that nobles and highly ranked GMH people should just get any amount of coin they would desire. Both these roles are special apped to begin with, so the chances of any abuse showing up are low, and the amount of money both people have realistic access to is far, far more than anyone could ever blow ICly, barring the special projects for which staff would need to look at things anyway.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, no. I understand your thoughts here, but I do understand the need for a budget, even OOCly. You want to encourage politics for nobles and GMH leaders. A budget forces you to politic. Secondly, if we have unlimited money, then so do the underlings. Because then they can barter with us, instead of grabbing with eager hands for it might be gone soon.

No. A budget is needed. But that's not the issue. The issue is that nobles and GMH merchants are not rich, in game terms. And game terms should reflect IC world terms. In IC world terms, they are rich.

It could be as simple as halving current sell prices in NPC shops. That alone would introduce a vastly different economy for indies. The goal, as far as I am concerned, is to make clans easy and desirable, even OOCly, and to make indies hard and initially poor, and still keep the economy in balance. Clans are easy now but not desirable, and indies are hard now but rich.

[Patuk]

Well, no. I understand your thoughts here, but I do understand the need for a budget, even OOCly. You want to encourage politics for nobles and GMH leaders. A budget forces you to politic. Secondly, if we have unlimited money, then so do the underlings. Because then they can barter with us, instead of grabbing with eager hands for it might be gone soon.

If you're a noble, and you're going to not play politics simply because you already have money.. You're doing something wrong. Furthermore, politics like these are about far more than just money in the first place. I'm saying here that the amount of money a player may withdraw could easily be unlimited because realistically, you're never going to spend THAT much cash on anything, anyway. But in the grand scheme of things? The amounts of money, resources, men and alliances a noble house is tied to is laughable compared to what your PC can buy in shops and pay his underlings, and something any noble PC will get to deal with, if they like it or not.

The idea of underlings being paid too much simply because their bosses will be (mechanically) richer is one I don't see happening, either. Nothing changes ICly, and hired people definetly won't go 'but you have unlimited cash anywayyyyy' all of a sudden.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Ok. I'm not referring to politics in the sense of House vs House, necessarily. I mean politics in gaining the favor of the common man. Currently, if a noble says, we're offering a 1k bount on x's head, we know OOCly that the noble is committing a large portion of his available resources to catching this guy. This gives us a sense of the gravity of the situation, and we're shocked by the amount of coin offered. We know that we can go get that new piece of armor we want if we catch this guy, and we're gonna gain tons of favor with the said noble if we win.

With unlimited funds, we're going to be wondering why they are only offering 1k. Why not 4k, so I can get the whole suit of armor and pay for six months of my apartment. For all we know, the guy is probably just a deserter, and maybe not even that experienced. Shit, he might have already died to a scrab. We'll have less motivation to do it, because, relative to our knowledge of the noble's wealth, we understand that it's a small bounty.

What I'm suggesting, in making sid harder to garner for the common indie, is that that 1k allows you to now go get that mid-tier piece of armor that you would have had to bring in 20 hides for, instead of the ten you need to bring in now. I'm suggesting forcing indies to scrap and scrounge and survive until they really do become successful, while clan employees surf along at a decent pace because of their monthly income and their free food, water, and board.

In hand with such a change to the selling habits of the indie, is a change to food cost, in which it takes less sid to eat and drink, so as not to force PCs to starve just because of the change. In summary, if you reduce food and water and ale by a third, reduce npc sales by half, and leave everything else the exact same cost, I think you'll find more people clamoring to do the small jobs that nobles and rich people have to offer, and more appeal in playing the 'easy' game of being a noble house employee.

[Patuk]

Yeah, I.. I really don't see that happening already. Two situations:

Current system, Nobles have to acquire cash somehow:

Amos: Look, Lord Amos Borsail wants this Hasan guy dead. Bounty set at one large.

Malik: Woah man, one large? That's a -lot- of cash for a noble, let's totally get him!

Or.

My proposed system, nobles have a mechanic to withdraw cash at will:

Amos: Look, Lord Amos Borsail wants this Hasan guy dead. Bounty set at one large.

Malik: Pffff, one large? That's stingy, screw it, I'm just gonna sit at taverns and drink all day.



These both scenarios are awfully OOC in nature, and I don't like the idea behind the both of them. One large is a -lot- of cash in Zalanthas. Would your character go 'meh, stingy noble' or 'that guy could've easily doubled that bounty'? He wouldn't, he'd go 'damn, one large, MUST GET', and act accordingly. Not doing something because OOCly, you think someone is acting stingy, is really nothing short of metagaming.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I suppose you're right. I'm not sure I mean that to go the way I wrote it. Perhaps I should have said it like this.

1k bounty, currently. Well, I have to hunt down this guy by running all over the world, asking x and x and x if they have seen him. For 1k. Or, I could go kill x and x and x and sell x here, and x there, and have 2k. Probably take less time.

I'm suggesting that the 1k should look immensely larger to you. It should look more like it looks to an NPC, than it does to you. You can suggest it's a lot of money ICly as much as you want, but for a number of indies, it's not, and it might not be worth it, particularly if they don't care about the noble offering it.

The average NPC will probably kill a relative for 1k. Would you, the PC?

[Schrodingers Cat]

Nobles have the power and influence. Indies have the wealth and are relativly untethered fom politics.  If an enterprising noble could find something to offer indies they might find themselves in a profitable situation.

[Patuk]

I suppose you're right. I'm not sure I mean that to go the way I wrote it. Perhaps I should have said it like this.

1k bounty, currently. Well, I have to hunt down this guy by running all over the world, asking x and x and x if they have seen him. For 1k. Or, I could go kill x and x and x and sell x here, and x there, and have 2k. Probably take less time.

I'm suggesting that the 1k should look immensely larger to you. It should look more like it looks to an NPC, than it does to you. You can suggest it's a lot of money ICly as much as you want, but for a number of indies, it's not, and it might not be worth it, particularly if they don't care about the noble offering it.

The average NPC will probably kill a relative for 1k. Would you, the PC?

There. -That- is a real problem, but it doesn't relate to my suggestion concerning nobles and their wealth. This isn't just the independent merchants, though.. I find that most everyone is too rich for their own good. I've said this before, for a MUD that prides itself on such a harsh environment, making money is awfully easy in Zalanthas.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nobles have the power and influence. Indies have the wealth and are relatively untethered from politics.  If an enterprising noble could find something to offer indies they might find themselves in a profitable situation.

And I've done this before, to good effect, in fact. But there's a limit to what you can offer. The reality is that the noble should have the power, wealth and influence, and the indie should have freedom.

I find that most everyone is too rich for their own good. I've said this before, for a MUD that prides itself on such a harsh environment, making money is awfully easy in Zalanthas.

Yep. Look, for our current environment, your idea is probably the best. Nobles should have their stipend to spend solely upon themselves, their whores, their armor, clothes, food, etc, and unlimited (to a point) house funds to conduct events. When I played a noble, I did almost everything on my stipend or supplemented it with my stipend, which made doing things hard at times.

Nobles DO have access to a House Bank, though. They just have to have permission to use it, and during my tenure, the House Bank's limit was smallish.

I'd love to see a situation in which, e.g Tor was hard capped at 5 PCs, and people had to hope someone died to get in, and they really wanted to get in because the armor was better, the weapons were better, the food and water was free, and they had a place to store their stuff that was free(ish) from break ins. Clans should never have to 'recruit'. Rumor boards should talk about the newest noble's name to beg entry to the clan from, not that they are looking for 'men and women of discerning quality'.

[Maso]

I don't think one large is a lot of money. I also don't think nobles get anywhere near enough for their stipends. The Arm economy is a pretty complicated scenario to debate and I've just got off an 11 hour flight...but...an economy should be a living breathing thing...but in Arm it's not...it's fixed, in regards to what the clans get from the staff and in regards to the sell/buy prices in shops...But it can all be a little bit random...For example not particularly rare food stuffs or clothing (not silks) - being the same as a months rent in an 'alright' apartment.

Sometimes it just doesn't feel like it adds up.

I think moderately successful indie's should be left alone! Rather than make it harder for them to make coin (and probably lower the level enjoyment of their players)....just make nobles and GMH family members richer by default. Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

My brain isn't working.

[Kryos]

Its the whole bag of bricks:  costs of nurishing items IG, relative to the consumptive values and times for PCs.  Cost of storage, most of which is unsafe anyway and will end up costing you far more then rent alone.  Conversely, returns on selling things to shops, how much of what to where, and so on.

I think this is no simple matter.  A detailed, carefully observed plan would need to be engaged to balance this in what should be the correct flavor.

I think that flavor is that if you bust your chops in a clan, you will get just a bit more than enough to get by, and possibly get rewarded with gear, status, or more coin then they average bum.  If you really bust your ass as an indep you will get the more then scraping by but no perks.  

If you're an indep merchant, you should risk to gain, with greater risk and routes, greater rewards(meaning local goods in the same area are barely profitable, with consideration to components and investment).  Time, energy, bribes, and routes would need hashed out.  The additional difficulty is, to use a bit of hyperbole, that looking at a merchant might cause them to die and they are always very profitable.  Not a glass cannon, to use game jargon, but instead a glass piggy bank.  One part of that is good, and should encourage the whole buying friends/protectors.  The latter is bad, as, it negates the need for travel.  Further, the whole 'how dangerous is it out there' question applies here.  Is it dangerous enough to encourage(maybe require) merchants to have escort for their travel?

The nobles and GMH reps should get enough money to sway any one commoner easily, a few commoners possibly, and influence politics if carefully plied.  They too should have to work to do more.

Just my opinion/contribution to the discussion.

[Yam]

I'd honestly like to see the game balanced enough so that being in a clan was the most lucrative choice, and being an rich independant was hard, not easy. Yes, Templars can charge extra tax, etc, but ... I'd like to see it actually balanced that way. The reality exists that nobles are not the richest characters in the game, and neither of GMH merchants. It's indies. Yes, the balance of power is by blood and whatever, but I'd love to see nobles and GMH merchants having more power because they had the coin you want, too.

Those who are in clans shouldn't be able to do automated tasks. Even if you have to cheat and have the NPC check the player's pfile, instead of some IC articale of clothing or something, I'd retain those tasks for indies only, or certain clans, like Bynners and poop.

It definitely is the most lucrative choice. Independents who go around trying to acquire wealth or power have far shorter lifespans than their clanned counterparts.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Er. It's the safest choice. It's not the lucrative choice. Per hour played, indies will obtain more wealth.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think one large is a lot of money. I also don't think nobles get anywhere near enough for their stipends. The Arm economy is a pretty complicated scenario to debate and I've just got off an 11 hour flight...but...an economy should be a living breathing thing...but in Arm it's not...it's fixed, in regards to what the clans get from the staff and in regards to the sell/buy prices in shops...But it can all be a little bit random...For example not particularly rare food stuffs or clothing (not silks) - being the same as a months rent in an 'alright' apartment.

Sometimes it just doesn't feel like it adds up.

I think moderately successful indie's should be left alone! Rather than make it harder for them to make coin (and probably lower the level enjoyment of their players)....just make nobles and GMH family members richer by default. Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

My brain isn't working.

I think you make a good point here, and I also think there deserves to be some elaboration.

First off, money isn't a concern here.  Since resources are fixed, money operates much like in a free market, making it largely useless.

Typically, the ability to make money, and many other different things, could be considered a real resource.  Nobles have very few resources beyond money, group lodgings, and free time.  If anything, I'd give them properties for rent and special brokers to buy off a partisan's junk before I would give them more money..

[Patuk]

Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

No.

I'm fine with inflation. I'm fine with obsidian being devaluated. All of this is realistic, and can be RPed out accordingly. Unfortunately, a MUD doesn't work that way. One large might not be a lot of money when compared to the super-rich independent merchant over there, but it can still buy you a fuckton of food, water, and a nice apartment to go along with it. As long as prices are as they are, one large -is- a lot of money, no matter how you look at it.

[Kalai]

Accept that 1 large...just isn't -that- much anymore.

No.

I'm fine with inflation. I'm fine with obsidian being devaluated. All of this is realistic, and can be RPed out accordingly. Unfortunately, a MUD doesn't work that way. One large might not be a lot of money when compared to the super-rich independent merchant over there, but it can still buy you a fuckton of food, water, and a nice apartment to go along with it. As long as prices are as they are, one large -is- a lot of money, no matter how you look at it.

So, 1-4 weeks' salary in this world.

Things get a bit odder with clothes.

[Cutthroat]

Er. It's the safest choice. It's not the lucrative choice. Per hour played, indies will obtain more wealth.

They can't do much with that wealth if they're dead, though. Nor can they really do anything with it while alive, besides buy stuff (at full price or higher), rent apartments for storage (that will be broken into), and maybe give money to important folks that start to get a very stabby feeling as they watch the wealth gather. They're rarely, if ever, going to be allowed in higher-level plots or given special treatment like clanned wealthy individuals for the simple fact that they can't be trusted with something like a wagon, a building, or a slave.

That said, clanned life is always going to be preferable for a player who wants a long-lived, well-involved character - it's just not as accessible to an off-peaker. Although the reasoning behind OP's idea is sound, I think there are enough hard-coded collection quests in-game for now, and more complicated work is going to be tough to code for minimal returns. What could be beneficial is having one or two off-peak sponsored role leader types in each major playing area that can hire other off-peakers and put them to a wide variety of work. I think off-peak leaders already exist to an extent, at least sometimes - but other off-peak players don't really take advantage of it.

[Red Ranger]

Independents who go around trying to acquire wealth or power have far shorter lifespans than their clanned counterparts.

They can't do much with that wealth if they're dead, though. Nor can they really do anything with it while alive, besides buy stuff (at full price or higher), rent apartments for storage (that will be broken into), and maybe give money to important folks that start to get a very stabby feeling as they watch the wealth gather. They're rarely, if ever, going to be allowed in higher-level plots or given special treatment like clanned wealthy individuals for the simple fact that they can't be trusted with something like a wagon, a building, or a slave.

That said, clanned life is always going to be preferable for a player who wants a long-lived, well-involved character...

Medichi, Khann, Garrick, and all the other legendary movers and shakers of the gameworld agree.  The average PC doesn't live very long.  Some manage to get wealthy during that inevitably short period of time, but that doesn't mean that they were Important.  In the ossified societies of Zalanthas, mere personal wealth does not equal importance, influence, or power.  To me it's as though IRL you could get rich quickly off of digging for gold in minefields with your friends, but that gold won't make you a Senator or a CEO or the chief of police even if it transiently makes your checking account larger than theirs, and it's inevitable that you're gonna get blown to bits soon on one of your gold digs.  Of course every player plays for different reasons and derives fun from different in-game activities, and maybe the majority of players have an OOC goal of a large IC bank account, but we seem to be focusing on those IC lunatics that keep going out into the minefield.  Despite that seeming focus on money as an end in itself (perhaps because of the importance of money in our modern RL lives), in the long term I think that the game still actually does a good job of distinguishing between fleetingly wealthy indies and the Powers that Be who are pulling the strings (see the names above). 

Clans should never have to 'recruit'. Rumor boards should talk about the newest noble's name to beg entry to the clan from, not that they are looking for 'men and women of discerning quality'.

Preach the gospel!  IC'ly it should be a "buyer's market" that favors the clan recruiters out there.

Those who are in clans shouldn't be able to do automated tasks. Even if you have to cheat and have the NPC check the player's pfile, instead of some IC articale of clothing or something, I'd retain those tasks for indies only, or certain clans, like Bynners and poop.

I disagree.  If you're wanting to make clans more attractive to PCs and more lucrative (because of the OOC focus on money), why not add the automated tasks inside the clans to provide coin bonuses to clanned PCs for doing those automated tasks?

Like Nyr, I'm not against automated tasks as such.  What I'm against are automated tasks that feel OOC'ly motivated and video-gamey (i.e. killing advancing "levels" of creatures), and what I'm for are automated tasks that make sense in the game world.  What I'm really for are automated tasks that actually add to the gameworld and flesh out things that are currently only virtual.

As an example of an automated intraclan task that would make real something that is currently (mostly) virtual, I suggest coded deliveries within the GMH clans.  Kadians PCs might be able to transport wood from Tuluk to a clan facility in Allanak and be paid for their trouble.  The same might work for Salarris transporting obsidian from Allanak to a clan stockpile in Tuluk and for Kuracis moving spice from Red Storm to clan warehouses in Luir's or Tuluk (or Allanak...).  In my mind, the GMH's are all constantly bustling with travel and activity so these sorts of world-spanning deliveries are happening on a weekly basis IC'ly, but right now it's mostly virtual and I think it would be fun to involve PCs in these rote tasks that are nonetheless necessary for the GMH clans IC'ly.  Maybe doing these delivery tasks wouldn't even result in automatic pay, just automatic tokens that require RP with a PC leader who could then issue a bonus as she/he deems fit.  "Only fifteen delivery tokens in the last month, Hunter?  You're slacking, no bonus pay for you."

All that said, I ultimately don't find the addition of any automated tasks to be really urgent for all the reasons previously mentioned in the thread.  Neat suggestion!  Just not a pressing issue in my eyes.

[Patuk]

I think off-peak leaders already exist to an extent, at least sometimes - but other off-peak players don't really take advantage of it.

Off-peakers aren't all gathered in some kind of club, you know. The only way of knowing that other people are around I have is the WHO command, and even that doesn't tell me much. I'd -love- to find people with playtimes more suited to mine, but really, how am I supposed to find them somehow?

[RogueGunslinger]

The only way of knowing that other people are around I have is the WHO command, and even that doesn't tell me much. I'd -love- to find people with playtimes more suited to mine, but really, how am I supposed to find them somehow?

You find someone you like roleplaying with, and then OOC: Hey, if you don't mind, what's your standard playtimes so we can meet up more?

And then just 'contact person' during those times to see if they're on for some interaction.

[Patuk]

That's another matter than 'there's offpeak leaders already, I've no idea why offpeakers just don't go there.'

Yes, you can ask people for playtimes. But when you -don't- know anyone, and can't find anyone either.. You can't simply go around waying random people.

[Nyr]

You would have better luck going where the PCs are when you are playing, and sometimes that takes some trial and error (or maybe a chat with staff via the request tool, they might be able to help).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Excellent point about retention.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm all for an automated task sort of thing that allows people to come together and meet up in a place. Sadly most of the ones in the game currently only spread people out, or put them in places too dangerous for someone to want to go to to socialize. There's a reason why the taverns are the place you're most likely to run into someone.

The more of these sorts of automated tasks you put in the more chances for players to dilute further, because they will have a plethora of options to be spread out among.

That's what I'm talking about when I say this will cause less interaction, instead of more. And I seriously doubt the amount of retention you will get from adding more of them will make up for that dilution.

[Maso]

And I seriously doubt the amount of retention you will get from adding more of them will make up for that dilution.

Data to back up this statement please.

[RogueGunslinger]

... Just think about that for a moment. And you'll realize how that's impossible.

However I can illustrate the point pretty easily: People who are going to leave because of not enough things to do in the game while offpeak, won't be impressed by one or two more salt-mining jobs. After all, they could just go salt mining. People who want to do things while off-peak generally want to play with other players, more so than they want to have another boring repetitive grind to make a few 'sids for.

If you add more of these things that pull people away from eachother, that person who's bored is going to have a harder time finding said people, and thus, in the long run, possibly want to leave the game even more. Sure, it's speculation. But it at least makes more sense to me and is less intangible than "if you add more meaningless grind jobs for people then they will want to play more instead of leaving"

It's sort of like a rookie ranger trying to bandage you for the first time. You have a chance of helping the problem, sure, but you also have a chance of making the wound even bigger. And you're not really even trying to bandage the problem of player retention, you actually trying to bandage the problem of people being bored when no one else is around. Don't you think we should address that 'no one being around' problem first?

[musashi]

*short, overly dramatic yawn*

Nope. Not persuaded. All your speculation is bias, unlike the OP's.

>_>

In the big cities I agree that we have enough coded jobs, but I could see adding some to Luirs, and perhaps Cenyr to give those people trying to get away something to keep them busy and able to buy food.

[RogueGunslinger]

*short, overly dramatic yawn*

Nope. Not persuaded. All your speculation is bias, unlike the OP's.

>_>

In the big cities I agree that we have enough coded jobs, but I could see adding some to Luirs, and perhaps Cenyr to give those people trying to get away something to keep them busy and able to buy food.

*turn, squint, pause, wink*

So you agree with me, you just don't agree with my argument? I'd ask why you believe we have enough jobs in the big cities, then? Isn't more better if I'm wrong? Variety being the spice of life, and all that.

How is my speculation bias?

[musashi]

Well it's bias because it supports what you're saying instead of what the OP is saying. Obviously. 

I think that inside of the cities are quite a few coded jobs to do already so ... go and do those. If you think it's unrealistic that you can continuously forage the same area for the same resource ... stop going there and vary where you forage a bit. Let staff know that area is being over foraged. They've been known to reflect this in the game world before.

But in very isolated places like Cenyr, the people who are there are likely trying to avoid much interaction from other PC's. So maybe giving them something they can do to participate in that settlement's meager economy wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

Nope, that sounds like a good idea to me too.

[musashi]

Well then it's obviously biased.

[Maso]

I'm totally lost now. But my original point that was that you were making bias and speculative assumptions on player behaviour based off your behaviour. Which doesn't really mean anything. When you are discussing stuff like what really influences player retention then you need a more accurate way to study player behaviour and the direct results of implementing various...stuffs.

Anyway, off-topic.

If people want to interact with other people...they will. If they want to go grind on some quest type tasks...then they will. Not providing people with grindy tasks will not force them to interact if they don't want to. It's a game, people do what they want to do.

I'd be totally down to see some more interesting coded 'tasks/jobs/quests/whatevers'. There are plenty of times I don't want to interact with other people and I'd prefer to go make some 'sid so my character can afford some new shoes. But lacking a feasible way for my character to do that - I'll just log off instead, on-peak or off-peak. I certainly won't go tavern sit if I'm not in the mood.

If it's off-peak and I DO want to interact but I log on and there's 4 players on...I'll also just log off. If there was something else to do that I wanted to do, then I might hang around longer and then eventually bump into someone to interact with.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes, my argument against the speculative idea that this will help with player retention was also speculative. This is generally how one forms an argument without have complete knowledge of everything... with speculation. 

[/last word syndrome-aaaahhhh]

[Maso]

Speculate that. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Oi, I ain' got any last words for this one, I surrender!

[Maso]

Haha. I knew I could outsmart you. 

[Hot_Dancer]

A few RPI's of ye olde past often featured in game message boards at important local shops (which were often PC owned, but ours would be GMH owned).

PC's left an order, shop owner replied. Date/meet was set. Items and Funds were exchanged. (Kind of how the worlds had to work when you didn't have the Way)

This could also work in reverse for local businesses that need orders filled. Owners would post current needs, when they could be available to pick up said items and grebbers would greb and reply post when they planned to step in to sell said merchandise.

PC leaders would be able to soothe the bulging veins in their foreheads and just go, "Go ahead and tell my assistant at the shop about your orders."

Sadly, these boards would likely require fairly regular upkeep but it would help offpeakers interact with the rest of the gameworld.

[Maso]

Ok....that would actually be really cool. PC's filling PC's needs...but giving them a way to communicate across play times. Salarr needs wood, it says so in the Salarr shops and how much they are paying. PC GMH deposits coin with the shopkeeper...So...Grebbers could go get would...and...sell it to the Salarr shop (who wouldn't normally buy wood) until the requirement was filled and the shopkeeper was out of the deposited funds?

Or would you have to wait until you could meet a PC to make the trade? That would remove the benefit for off-peakers.

[Hot_Dancer]

For simplicity sake you'd probably still have to meet a PC from the organization.

The thing is - you could arrange your appointment through the message board instead of getting lucky and catching
someone online via the Way.

It's not supposed to be completely automated just more of a compromise and useful utility to encourage interaction.

[Dalmeth]

The problem lies less in the fact that we need more tasks but that the tasks we currently have kinda suck in terms of leisure and availability.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

GMH's certainly have access to both IG boards, and of course GDB boards. This could be begun without any delay at all, frankly, in clan.