Karma Discussion Thread: CGP and regeneration

[Adj]

No, Desert Elf is 1 karma, and Rukkian/Viv are 2. So 2 was the minimum, I think.

Is it not three karma for that?

[SpyGuy]

No, Desert Elf is 1 karma, and Rukkian/Viv are 2. So 2 was the minimum, I think.

Is it not three karma for that?

After CGP maybe.  But right now karma just opens up options.  To the best of my knowledge you can combine those options however you want.

[Dalmeth]

After CGP maybe.  But right now karma just opens up options.  To the best of my knowledge you can combine those options however you want.

This is a misunderstanding.  The CGP system is separate from karma.  Karma determines what special class and race selections you can choose.  It is not expended.  CGP, though the maximum is based on your karma, only applies to extended subguilds and boosts.  It is expended and regenerated, to a total of your karma level.  Apart from the maximum CGP, the karma and point systems are entirely separate.

[Twilight]

While that would be awesome, its wrong.  Please see:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html

[Dalmeth]

While that would be awesome, its wrong.  Please see:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html

Drat, and here I thought they said that specifically.

[Morgenes]

While that would be awesome, its wrong.  Please see:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41934.0.html

Drat, and here I thought they said that specifically.

What Dalmeth stated here:

After CGP maybe.  But right now karma just opens up options.  To the best of my knowledge you can combine those options however you want.

This is a misunderstanding.  The CGP system is separate from karma.  Karma determines what special class and race selections you can choose.  It is not expended.  CGP, though the maximum is based on your karma, only applies to extended subguilds and boosts.  It is expended and regenerated, to a total of your karma level.  Apart from the maximum CGP, the karma and point systems are entirely separate.

Matches my understanding of what I'm implementing.  Although I wouldn't say they are completely separate.  I'm not sure what the argument to this post is.  Reread my example of char gen to see that the choices you make expend CGP, and your karma limit what options are available, but also your remaining CGP limits it. 

So if you have 3 karma, today you can create a Half-giant Water Elementalist.  In the new system you could not as choosing a Half-giant would expend 3 CGP, and you would not have any karma left to choose a Water Elementalist (2 CGP).  You would have to have 5 karma in order to make that choice.

So, I would say they are intertwined.  Karma is never expended.  CGP are.  Your choices in char gen expend CGP, effectively lowering the options that you have today.

[Dalmeth]

So, I would say they are intertwined.  Karma is never expended.  CGP are.  Your choices in char gen expend CGP, effectively lowering the options that you have today.

Yeahp, I was mistaken in this case.  That pretty much sums it up right there.

[MeTekillot]

So karma is just going to be the max-cap for your CGP, then?

[A Large Bag]

So karma is just going to be the max-cap for your CGP, then?

Yes, that's the way I understood it.

[Twilight]

What I was responding to Dalmeth was regarding Guilds and Races.  He stated that CGP would apply only to extended subguilds and boosts.  I was trying to point out that this was not the case, that it would extend to guilds, races, extended subguilds and boosts, and would be additive.

[Pale Horse]

Breaking it down.

Karma: It unlocks racial and guild options the more of it you have, and acts as the upper limit of how much CGP you can have.  5 Karama = 5 max CGP and "whatever" racial/guild options.

CGP: Character Generation Points.  You spend these on Karma dependent races and guilds during new character creation.  Per Morg's example, half-giant costs 3 CGP due to it's higher karma value, and water-elementalist costs 2, for the same reason.  Ergo you could have that half-giant vivaduan, but you could not have a half-giant whiran even if you have the option for whiran, as whiran costs 3 CPG which would raise the total CGP cost to 6, when you only have a max of 5 available with your karma level.

Please note that you can special app. to get 3 more CGP, effectively raising your Karma level to 8 for the purpose of having a half-giant whiran (6 total CGP) and still have 2 CGP left over.  It is my understanding that this does NOT unlock the racial and guild options available to a naturally 8 level karma account if you would not have said options already unlocked.

[Morgenes]

Nice summary Pale Horse, thanks.

Please note that you can special app. to get 3 more CGP, effectively raising your Karma level to 8 for the purpose of having a half-giant whiran (6 total CGP) and still have 2 CGP left over.  It is my understanding that this does NOT unlock the racial and guild options available to a naturally 8 level karma account if you would not have said options already unlocked.

One thing to note however, the Special App process WILL still allow you to unlock karma options up to 3 levels higher than you currently have, effectively granting you a temporary 3 bonus karma, and the CGP that would give you.

So, to our example of a 5 karma player.  If they special app, they would have access to all options at 8 effective karma, and have access to 8 CGP to spend on the special application.  So they could play a sorcerer and expend all 8 CGP, or they could play a half-giant whiran (6 CGP) and spend 2 CGP on skill boosts or choosing an extended subguild.

This also works the same if you have more than 5 karma. So an 8 karma player that special apps could have 11 effective karma (not changing their options), but also 11 CGP to work with in their application.

[Lizzie]

....

and then...

when you have created your half-giant vivaduan with your 5 karma...

your CGP is now at 2 (even though you just expended all the 5 that you have). You can't go lower than 2. You also re-build those points at the rate of 1 per month, until you have reached the number of points equal to your karma level (5).

And so:
You have 5 karma, and 5 CGP.

HG Viv = 5
You now have 2 CGP

Your HG Viv dies 1 month + 1 day after you log him in.

You now have 3 CGP. You can roll up another HG, or another vivaduan, but you can't do an HG vivaduan this time, without a special app.

If you would prefer to play something mundane, then a month later, you will then have 4 CGP, and be able to play a whiran. But not a HG whiran. And not a D-Elf Whiran (since D-elf = 1, Whiran = 4, 1+4=5, and you only have 4 to spend).

The only thing I'm not sure about, is if you want to play a desert-elf (mundane guild), or a rukkian/vivaduan (no-karma race).

Since the lowest you can get is 2 CGP (assuming you have at least 2 karma in the first place), then when you play a rukkian - which is a 2-karma guild, does that mean you can continually roll up vivaduans and rukkians, one right after the other (assuming the staff doesn't say "enough with the magickers Lizzie, time to roll a mundane)?

[Akaramu]

I'd kind of prefer if CGP dropped to 0, not a minimum of 2 or 3. Wouldn't mind seeing less karma guilds about, with 2/3 being the minimum the amount of vivaduans and rukkians ingame compared to other flavors would skyrocket.

[musashi]

I wouldn't mind if CGP dropped to 0 either.

[Morgenes]

Our current (behind the scenes) plan is to actually drop it to 1 minimum, but increase the regeneration rate to one point per two weeks.

Of course, if there is enough public outcry we could drop it to 0 minimum

[Nyr]

NO YOU TOLD THEM OUR SECRET PLANS

[Morgenes]

Sorry.

[Nyr]

A lot of math was involved.

[Pale Horse]

I think I would prefer having CGP drop to 0, but with the caveat that the standard starting races and guilds have no CGP cost attached to them.

I feel that this would help keep the karmatic races and guilds more "rare" than is currently seen IG due to how karma works in it's current incarnation, with those of higher karma (justifiably and perfectly within their rights, having earned the privilege, as seen by the Administration) being able to roll out their higher guild/race options each time they create a new character (I myself have been guilty of this, I will admit).  No one is unfairly "penalized" as the reduction in CGP is applicable in the same way to one and all, no matter their Karma level.

[Nyr]

Char Gen Points
Char Gen Points (CGP) are the currency granted by your karma level to affect character generation.  They are spent in char gen when you choose an option that requires karma.  They regenerate over time, at the rate of 1 point per two week period. The first CGP is never truly spent, you will always have access to at least 1 point.

I've edited this original post from Morgenes to lay out the current system.  The change is minor, but significant enough to mention, and would derail an existing thread on the extended subguilds.

[Nyr]

I think I would prefer having CGP drop to 0, but with the caveat that the standard starting races and guilds have no CGP cost attached to them.

That was never proposed as far as I am aware.  Standard starting races and guilds (I assume) would be any race or guild that a 0 karma player could achieve.  There is not (and has not been) a requirement of karma (or the spending of any CGP) for these.

The following applies if the CGP "floor" were lowered to 0.

1 point of CGP regeneration every 2 weeks:
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 8 unmodified desert elves in a 2 week period, then 1 every 2 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 4 unmodified stone or water elementalists in a 2 week period, then 1 every 4 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 2 unmodified half-giants in a 2 week period, then 1 in the next 2 week period, then 1 every 6 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 2 unmodified krathis or whirans in a 2 week period, then 1 every 8 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 1 unmodified drovian or elkran in a 2 week period, then 1 every 10 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 1 unmodified void elementalist in a 2 week period, then 1 every 12 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 1 unmodified mul in a 2 week period, then 1 every 14 weeks after that.
An 8 karma player with 8 CGP can play 1 unmodified psionicist or sorcerer in a 2 week period, then 1 every 16 weeks after that.

Your personal possibilities will vary depending on how much karma you have, how long your characters live, how many special applications you decide to use, whether or not you use extended subguilds, and whether or not you use any CGP for skill bumps.

The same laid out for a 4 karma player:

1 point of CGP regeneration every 2 weeks:
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 4 unmodified desert elves in a 2 week period, then 1 every 2 weeks after that.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 2 unmodified stone or water elementalists in a 2 week period, then 1 every 4 weeks after that.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 1 unmodified half-giant in a 2 week period, then 1 in the next 2 week period, then 1 every 6 weeks after that.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 1 unmodified krathi or whiran in a 2 week period, then 1 every 8 weeks after that.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 3 unmodified drovians or elkrans per year (if approved) by using a special app.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 3 unmodified void elementalists per year (if approved) by using a special app.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP can play 3 unmodified mus per year (if approved) by using a special app.
A 4 karma player with 4 CGP cannot play a sorcerer or a psionicist as it is outside of their karma range and the extended reach of a special application.

[A Large Bag]

Char Gen Points
Char Gen Points (CGP) are the currency granted by your karma level to affect character generation.  They are spent in char gen when you choose an option that requires karma.  They regenerate over time, at the rate of 1 point per two week period. The first CGP is never truly spent, you will always have access to at least 1 point.

I prefer this to the original way I heard it. Regen one point every two weeks is good I think. Would be fine with it dropping to zero if you used all your CGP with this regen rate but one is good too. *shrug*

One per month and dropping all the way to zero would be really lame. I app a sorc, it dies due to a freak accident and now I can't try it again for eight months? Ouch, that would turn me off from even wanting to app one for the pure chance that could happen. The way you all intend to do it now will put time in between them but not an excessive amount of time. That's good.

[Feco]

Our current (behind the scenes) plan is to actually drop it to 1 minimum, but increase the regeneration rate to one point per two weeks.

Of course, if there is enough public outcry we could drop it to 0 minimum

I'd like to express my public approval of this.  It sounds like it will control "problems," and allow some room for fun (that's the point, right?)

I don't like the idea of dropping it to 0.  I just don't like the idea of restricting desert-elves like that -- and I've only played one, so this isn't some personal favoritism.

[Nyr]

I don't like the idea of dropping it to 0.  I just don't like the idea of restricting desert-elves like that -- and I've only played one, so this isn't some personal favoritism.

Restricting them?

So instead of being able to hypothetically make desert elves back-to-back-to-back every few hours (something we wouldn't really allow anyway), you would be forced to make desert elves every two weeks, assuming your desert elves died within a two week time period every time?  The horror! 

[Feco]

Nyr-casm making me feel silly, again. :l

I guess I failed to recognize that 2 weeks isn't really that long.  So.  Changed my mind already; I still like the idea of 1 minimum, but would be neutral if it changed.

[number13]

Is there an idea when GCPs and the non-special app interface for using them might be implemented?

[Akaramu]

I can't wait for the implemenation. *bounces excitedly*

[Lizzie]

Now that the suggestion is to have it 1:2 weeks verse 1:4 weeks, I can be on board with the idea. Even if it drops to 0 karma and has to build up from there.

I think also folks should remember that there are only 2 open d-elf clans. So even if you had 1 karma all the time, you'd still be limiting yourself to one of 2 clans. I imagine that would get pretty old, pretty fast if you were to only make d-elves and no other race. So not being allowed to play one for 2 weeks, doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

[Twilight]

Timing is everything, in this case.

I would suggest that there be an 11+ category for non extended subguild/boost applications.  So as to not loose Mul + any of the 5+ karma options. 

More angrycrazy mul nilazis pls k thks bye.

[Patuk]

I'll enter the obligatory newbieshame mode on this one if I'm wrong, but.. Aren't Mul magickers supposed to be bred out of existance?

[Dar]

I like the idea of limiting it to 1 karma minimum.

Sometimes if you have a long lived character (or in some cases, a short lived, but very busy character), you end up miring yourself in all kinds of avenues of Zalanthas. Tuluk, Allanak, nobility, crime, etc, etc, etc.

After that chara dies, you'd kind of prefer playing something more removed from the general people that you've played with as another character just yesterday.  So you roll up some crazy ass mul, or gicker, or whatever and die in 121 minutes due to a tregil on steroids. Then you find yourself fresh out of CGP and an option of either playing in areas you'd kind of want to stay away from, or just not playing for two weeks and then going for a Delf.

[BadSkeelz]

I'll enter the obligatory newbieshame mode on this one if I'm wrong, but.. Aren't Mul magickers supposed to be bred out of existance?

I think the operative phrase is "supposed to be." No one has to know you're a big bald Carrie, just waiting for your Zalanthas Prom Dance to go awry and make you (or more accurately, everyone else in the room) explode.

[HavokBlue]

I don't see any reason to lower the floor below 1 point (and in fact prefer the original 3 point floor).

Besides putting a weird restriction on desert elves, it might dissuade people from playing a desert elf who might otherwise do so. The first karma point is the only one that directly affects the size of in-game clans, and in fact almost all PCs in the Tablelands. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing here, but I can't imagine any real benefit from dropping the floor to 0.

[Nyr]

I would suggest that there be an 11+ category for non extended subguild/boost applications.  So as to not loose Mul + any of the 5+ karma options. 

More angrycrazy mul nilazis pls k thks bye.

Actually, we considered that in the process, and that is why you can't do it under this system.  All part of game balance.

I like the idea of limiting it to 1 karma minimum.

Sometimes if you have a long lived character (or in some cases, a short lived, but very busy character), you end up miring yourself in all kinds of avenues of Zalanthas. Tuluk, Allanak, nobility, crime, etc, etc, etc.

After that chara dies, you'd kind of prefer playing something more removed from the general people that you've played with as another character just yesterday.  So you roll up some crazy ass mul, or gicker, or whatever and die in 121 minutes due to a tregil on steroids. Then you find yourself fresh out of CGP and an option of either playing in areas you'd kind of want to stay away from, or just not playing for two weeks and then going for a Delf.

You could always put in a special application for a desert elf.  We also may have some kind of appeals process for the odd/occasional situation in which someone nukes their high-karma role or special app within moments. 

Besides putting a weird restriction on desert elves, it might dissuade people from playing a desert elf who might otherwise do so.  The first karma point is the only one that directly affects the size of in-game clans, and in fact almost all PCs in the Tablelands. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing here, but I can't imagine any real benefit from dropping the floor to 0.

You could always put in a special application if you wanted to play a desert elf.

One benefit of dropping the floor to 0 would be that it would be fair across the board, something others have mentioned.

[A Large Bag]

Even with max karma you couldn't do a mul character with an extended subguild? Or you can but only through a special app?

[bcw81]

Spec app adds plus three to your CCG (or whatever it's called), thus meaning you can play a psionist outdoorsman.

[Nyr]

Even with max karma you couldn't do a mul character with an extended subguild? Or you can but only through a special app?

I would suggest that there be an 11+ category for non extended subguild/boost applications.  So as to not loose Mul + any of the 5+ karma options. 

Actually, we considered that in the process, and that is why you can't do it under this system.  All part of game balance.

Mul magick-users no longer exist due to careful breeding techniques.

As mentioned on the board here, you'd have to spec-app for a mul magicker anyway, and it has been that way (hard-coded) for a few years.

[A Large Bag]

Well yes, I knew that about mul magickers. I was talking about the extended subguilds for mul characters. At max karma you would still need to spec app for a mul with an extended subguild for the most part then also right?

[Nyr]

Ah, didn't realize you were asking about that or that it was called into question.  No, basic math still applies; the most you can apply for (if you have 8 karma) is something that costs 11 CGP.