Concepts

[bcw81]

I have no real idea how to word this, so if it seems like I'm rambling, hit me.

Anyhow, how does the playerbase feel about characters speaking about IRL concepts? For example, Occam's Razor; If a character said something about "the Razor", would you feel that's taking too much OOC into the game? Is it fine?

What about other things like popular poetry? Some Joe-Schmoe in Tuluk speaking about a poem from some famous bard. (When in reality it's one of Shakespeare's Sonnets)

Myself, I feel the first would be fine so long as the concept isn't something terribly outside of the dox (Religious concepts/Concepts on advanced mathmatics/Concepts based on the turning of the planets/etc.) But on the other hand, the latter, I would find quite annoying.

On that same note, I've seen the exact opposite in game. Over a year and a half ago, some bard started singing 'I Fought the Law' in one of the taverns (playing it off as his own) and no one seemed to give two shits. However, I've never heard of a IG philosopher bringing in such concepts into the world.

[Cutthroat]

I think referencing basic concepts would be okay ("hey Amos, it's best to give a simpler explanation"). Light or vague references to popular culture, philosophy, etc. can be appropriate or even amusing, if done sparingly. Pushing it beyond that into IRL names for concepts (especially names derived from historical figures, like Ockham) is awkward.

It's going to be natural that performances will take things that we're comfortable with - for example, when we see a rhyming poem in-game, we disregard the fact that sirihish is an entirely different language and just let it rhyme as we read it in English. However, works that derive very heavily from IRL culture is potentially obnoxious/OOC in my opinion, especially because there is already a whole host of player-created works to use if you want to perform a "well-known" song, story, or poem - and because this game is basically all about creativity if you want to make a new piece for the IG world.

That said, I think Shakespeare and rock and roll are off-limits (no one seemed to give two shits probably because going OOC about that might have started an argument). You might be able to slip by with an edited version of a very vague piece, but why do that if you can come up with something of your own, right?

[Kaineus]

Cutthroat posted before me, but I had this to contribute anyway....

My characters have used real life proverbs in game all the time, I just substitute real life animals for IG ones, sea metaphors for the silt sea, etc. I think it's fine.

As for songs and poems, I think we all agree songs and poems in game that have lyrics that are taken verbatim from real life compositions are bad and mess up people's immersion. However, seeing how incredibly difficult it can be to write a good song, I feel like if a player bases a song off one composed in real life, it's fine if it has been changed enough to (1) fit the setting of Zalanthas and (2) not be immediately recognizable as the song or poem it's based off of. The Shakespeare case is fail because very few players talk in Shakespearean English in game, so that messes up immersion in that regard. Songs based off modern popular music also suck for similar reasons.

[Marauder Moe]

A lot of songs in the original submissions (especially the older ones) are adaptations of RL songs, though.

I've heard this song first and often in-game: http://www.armageddon.org/original/showSubmission.php?submission=77

As such, it was very surreal when I heard it in real life at a medieval dinner show.

[MeTekillot]

All my sing-song characters just hash together a Blink-182 song with different lyrics for Zalanthas or something from popular submissions. Nobody seems to notice.

[Morrolan]

Something you probably should not do, but I could not resist:

The Cremation of Sam McGee Sarge Kuree
Original by Robert Service


There are strange things done in the midnight 'fore dawn sun
     By the men who moil for gold glass;
The Arctic Red Sand's trails have their secret tales
     That would make your blood run cold fas';
The Northern Lirathu's Lights have seen queer sights,
     But the queerest they ever did see
Was that night on the marge of Lake Lebarge path to Vrun Driath
     I cremated Sam McGee Sarge Kuree.


Now Sam McGee Sarge Kuree was from Tennessee Tenneshi, where the cotton blooms and blows.
Why he left his home in the South North to roam 'round the Pole sands, God Krath only knows.
He was always cold a pain in the ass, but the land of gold glass seemed to hold him like a spell;
Though he'd often say in his homely northie way that "he'd sooner live in hell."

On a Christmas One Terrin Day we were mushing grebbing our way over the Dawson Western trail.
Talk of your cold heat! through the parka's fold our leather-clad feet it stabbed like a driven nail.
If our eyes we'd close 'slits we spurned, then the lashes froze our eyes just burned till sometimes we couldn't see;
It wasn't much fun, but the only one to whimper was Sam McGee Sarge Kuree.

And that very night, as we lay packed tight in our robes beneath the snow atop the sand,
And the dogs kanks were fed, and the stars sky o'erhead were was dancing heel and toe sword in hand,
He turned to me, and "Cap," says he, "I'll cash in this trip, I guess;
And if I do, I'm asking that you won't refuse my last request."

Well, he seemed so low that I couldn't say no; then he says with a sort of moan:
"It's the cursed cold Krath, and it's got right hold burning wrath till and I'm chilled burned clean through to the bone.
Yet 'taint being dead — it's my awful dread of the icy grave being et' by gith that pains that pains;
So I want you to swear that, foul or fair, you'll cremate my last remains."

A pal's last need is a thing to heed, so I swore I would not fail;
And we started on at the streak of dawn; but God Krath! he looked ghastly pale.
He crouched hunched on the sleigh his kank, and he raved all day as he drank of 'bout his home in Tennessee crew in Tenneshi;
And before nightfall a corpse was all that was left of Sam McGee Sarge Kuree.

[Tenua]

For me, if someone started talking about "the Razor" I would assume it was a weapon. Complex philosophic thoughs just aren't common, and even if you wanted to play someone who is a "philosopher" I wouldn't call anything "the Razor".

As for songs/poems... I think everything is fair game so long as it Zalanthanized.

[Yam]

Philosophy is a fine side pursuit for those with education who can read and write. You could reinvent the concept of Occam's Razor. And then name it after yourself.

Malik's Razor.

Be sure to vigorously test your theories on guinea pigs (commoners) in amusing ways.

[boog]

When I had my bard, I never, ever, EVER used anything based off of anything anyone else had written. Ever. Not even the rhythm. It's too creepy to me! I imagine I'd feel like a succubus or something.

[Delirium]

I think it's okay to heavily alter or take an idea from a song you like, as long as it's not pop40s. Especially the very old traditional tunes.

When I play bards, I'd say maybe 90% of my stuff is original, and if it's for a commission, it's always original. That seems like an okay guideline to me.

There is a lot of offscreen legwork that goes into playing a bard, and for that reason I will always OOCly respect the effort a bardic PC puts forward, even if my PC doesn't.

As far as OOC and/or modern concepts: no thanks. There's so much rich history you can draw from in the gameworld without dragging RL philosophy and science into it.

[Ktavialt]

I was tempted to hijack a popular song and Zalanthan-ize it.  I think I may do it.

I think that in these cases the rule of thumb should be that you can do it.  You want some brownie points seeing if other characters get the original song?  Yeah, that's cool, just make sure you alter it enough and make it flow so it could actually fit in a Zalanthas setting.  Otherwise, its jarring and reeks too much of OOC-ness.

[Malifaxis]

I think there are about 40 different Zalanthan versions of America's "Horse with No Name"

[Iiyola]

One Bynner was once singing the song: "I wear my sunslits at night."

[BleakOne]

One of my first PCs was caught commiting a crime and sent to prison. He shout-sang "30 bottles of Sky in the Gaj". All the way from 30 to 0.

[FantasyWriter]

I've got a lovely bunch of elven skulls, di-duh-di-di.
There they are sitting in a row, bom-bom, bom.
Big ones, small ones, some as...

I never had to do this for the Sun-King.
The black robed templar of doom looks down on the jester, raising an eyebrow.

[Case]

I never Zalanthise anything I haven't written. I rejig proverbs and phrases to suit Zalanthas though. Sometimes they end up better than real ones.

[Synthesis]

Samos's Razor:  The hypothesis that Great Lord Samos accepts is the correct hypothesis.

The Salt Grebber's Paradox:  For a mekillot to reach you on the Salt Flats, it must travel half the distance to you, but to do that, it must travel half of that distance....

Zalanthan Cogito:  I think, therefore pretty much everyone knows my business.

[bennybubonic]

I prefer originality. Making obvious thefts of real-world songs or poems, even ones altered for that "gritty" feel, seems paltry and definitely ruins my immersion into the game. Any game, really.

That said, I don't think your average Zalanthan peasant would have any grasp whatsoever of complex philosophical principles. Making references to real-world concepts, like Occam's Razor, doesn't seem fitting to me. Granted, I'm new to the game, but it still seems a theft. Perhaps an observant and thoughtful person might make observations about the world that relate to these concepts - "If you've got two stories from two people, head for the simpler one" - but the concepts themselves? Not likely, not in my book.

Regardless, I'd love to play or run into some character in-game with a philosophical bent. Might be interesting to see how he/she grates against the setting, considering most people are all "Argh, cut, bash, stab, slash!" and whatnot.

[SMuz]

Nobody really recognizes songs, because people spot the melody in songs more often than the lyrics, unless you're going for something people hear all the time.

As for things like Plato's Cave or whatever philosophy, I think it's way too OOC. Make up philosophy in game, I'd say philosophy is an invention/culture in itself. I don't think Zalanthans have developed other concepts like economy of scale, assembly line, insurance, most forms of education, or pretty much any military tactic. Concepts just translate really poorly.

[Morrolan]

your average Zalanthan peasant would [not] have any grasp whatsoever of complex philosophical principles

That would probably be true of the average person, who is of average intelligence and experience. Then again, that is true in our culture, as well.

I believe we need to be careful when we explore intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom in non-literate cultures.

Regardless, I'd love to play or run into some character in-game with a philosophical bent. Might be interesting to see how he/she grates against the setting, considering most people are all "Argh, cut, bash, stab, slash!" and whatnot.

Sure, PCs are short-lived killers, but most people are probably less that way than we imagine. "Adventurers" need to exist against a more reasonable backdrop. A world of adventurers lasts less than two generations, and looks like The Road.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think Zalanthans have developed other concepts like ... most forms of education, or pretty much any military tactic. Concepts just translate really poorly.

I disagree completely.

I also disagree that philosophy would be under developed, and not prevalent in at least the more intelligent and wealthy parts of the population.

[Kalai]

Yeah education and tactics are definitely things that exist. They will be specific though - and better in some ways, if you take seriously the laments by Socrates of the influence of writing on the discipline of the youth - which makes me want to compose an epic poem (entirely mentally if I do it hardcore) and see how much of it I can get away with reciting. 

As for taking worldly influences, you know the saying - good artists borrow, great artists steal.  Figure out what you can manage seamlessly.

[Quell]

I have no real idea how to word this, so if it seems like I'm rambling, hit me.

Anyhow, how does the playerbase feel about characters speaking about IRL concepts? For example, Occam's Razor; If a character said something about "the Razor", would you feel that's taking too much OOC into the game? Is it fine?

What about other things like popular poetry? Some Joe-Schmoe in Tuluk speaking about a poem from some famous bard. (When in reality it's one of Shakespeare's Sonnets)

I don't think this is a high sin or grand blasphemy or anything, but a lot of people play this game because of the high immersion value, and you need to recognize that the more this is done the more damage will be done to that immerssion. Personally I'd be much more prone to doing this in very small groups with people who's preferred styles of playing I'm fairly familiar with. As taking things from the real world becomes more public, it becomes more officially part of the world and thus more aggravating to people that want to play entirely inside a fantasy realm. I would personally reall avoid this in any sort of RPT, IG board post, and even just run of the mill tavern performances.

Shooting the breeze with people you've been playing with for months though, I'd say you're probably a lot safer there.

[Marauder Moe]

You should make up your own philosophy rather than borrow it from Earth.  It's more fun that way.

[Morrolan]

I am a huge fan of creating in-game philosophies. The danger is, of course, that they disappear because characters rarely last more than a couple of IG years. I once had a rukkian (former mercenary) who had a developed set of rules by which he lived, and which he talked about and made decisions using.

It makes me wonder if there is a place for an IG scribe available to commoner PCs, where the entries will be placed in a library. Let's say it would cost 1000 coins per page, and there is no access to reading it for commoners. That would, among other things, give a way for ideas to stay in-game longer than the life of a character, give Nobles a larger base of ideas to read, and create a history of ideas that would grow over time.

This way, Nobles could gain access to much more information that people considered "important." Need to know about kryl? Maybe there is an entry on it in "The Records." Combat strategy and tactics? Perhaps there are a few entries on that.

Yes, a noble could possibly do something like this. I would be interested to see a semi-automated version of it. I believe that it would add to the game by adding more depth of known history.

Example entries:

On Fanged Bunnies,

There are three distinct breeds of fanged bunnies, all covering different territories.

The first, the burning bunny, lives in the West of Allanak, and feeds mostly on small game and obsidian grebbers. They are small, fluffy, and white, and can be recognized by their teeth and their poisonous bite.

The second type, the poop-bunny, lives north of Tuluk, and eats leaves and kryl-poop. They live in the Grey Forest, and their presence means that there are kryl nearby. Their skins are highly prized in the Desert Outpost.

The third type, the shadow-bunny, is found in dark places throughout the known. They live on the fear of their victims. Little more is known about them.

These are the collected sayings of Lieutenant Kilemal, recorded to honor the victory against the gith in which he sacrificed himself to hold the line against their main invasion force.

On battle:

In battle, we are not friends, or even people. We are Izdari pieces.

A knife at hand is deadlier than a sword at home.

Strike first. Strike hard. No mercy.

No death is too good for the enemy.

On leadership:

Before the battle, prepare them. During the battle, use them. After the battle, reward them.

Get drunk with every recruit. Once.

Death is a tool, not a punishment.

Let it be know and recorded that Berio, son of Malik, has taken on a life-debt to House Toriash in recognition of their assistance to him in the Salt Flats in avenging his father's murder.

A public record, if somehow verified, could be extremely useful for both nobles and the Templarate(s). It could spur plots, pass on information, record ideas, and even become the central focus of plots itself.