Discussion thread - Extended Subguilds

[racurtne]

Yeah, you are indeed not mistaken. It will likely make spec-apping an easier process, though.

I hope I have some time to set aside to play soon, I'd like to see this all in game whether I take advantage of it or not.

[Qzzrbl]

Right, which means if I want to play... let's say a Vivaduan/Protector who's a Bynner and doesn't know he's a magicker. That would actually require five karma, if I'm not mistaken. The cheapest combination I'm seeing is 4 CGP, but at severely limited choices.

The new choices are cool and all, and I'm glad staff spent the time to work them out but... I was just hoping they'd expand the options for people at the lower end of the karmic scale without requiring spec apps.

Orite.... Forgot using karma main guilds would cost too. x-X

[Dalmeth]

Gotta ask, will the protector subguild come with a weapon skill?  It seems to be the one thing missing from the description.

[Aaron Goulet]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented.  No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts.  You can bet my next PC will be a special app!

[HavokBlue]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented.  No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts.  You can bet my next PC will be a special app!

But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.

[Armaddict]

Really...these kinda things look really cool.  I really can't give any sort of real criticism, though, until I see how the majority of -players- use them.  So here in a couple months I may rant, or I may say major kudos.

[Aaron Goulet]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented.  No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts.  You can bet my next PC will be a special app!

But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.

There are still some mundane classes (e.g. sneaky types) who might wish to avoid being guild sniffed.

[Fathi]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented.  No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts.  You can bet my next PC will be a special app!

But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.

Given that you currently have to special app to get access to this system anyway, I don't see what the problem is? Because when you special app, you can request a concept that's up to three points above your current level. Since you are already having to special app to get these subguilds, is it that awful to just ask for your three extra points in your special app?

Which means that if you want to play your Vivaduan/Protector idea, you'd be able to app it just fine on normal Vivaduan karma, provided staff approve it.

I'm honestly not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to figure out how you think we'd need "a lot" of karma for these.

There are still some mundane classes (e.g. sneaky types) who might wish to avoid being guild sniffed.

Agreeing with this. The only time I ever got seriously guild sniffed, I was playing a ranger of all things. It sucked. I was trying to play a PC who had never seen combat at all and was terrified of fighting, but led people through storms as a guide for a living. (This was before direction sense became a skill that subguilds could pick up--woe for that PC.) She got hired into Kurac as a sifter, which was AWESOME.

... Until the local Fist Sarge found out she could see in storms and knew she'd "have a knack for fighting" and forced her into the Fist. It took me approximately 5 RL days of being in a scheduled combat clan in Red Storm as an offpeaker before I stored. I don't think I saw a single PC after Sergeant Asshat forced me into the unit.

[Dark Fate]

If your new, and don't have any karma, can you still special app for something?

Let's say that special app gets accepted. Will I then be forced to play that character, and have to quit my current one? Does it just wait for you until the living, active character dies?

[My 2 sids]

Really...these kinda things look really cool.  I really can't give any sort of real criticism, though, until I see how the majority of -players- use them.  So here in a couple months I may rant, or I may say major kudos.

True.

Although, I'm predicting the end of the GMHs  

In fact, disregard of most of the docs as magickers become more prevalent

[Aaron Goulet]

Really...these kinda things look really cool.  I really can't give any sort of real criticism, though, until I see how the majority of -players- use them.  So here in a couple months I may rant, or I may say major kudos.

True.

Although, I'm predicting the end of the GMHs  

In fact, disregard of most of the docs as magickers become more prevalent

Perhaps at first, but once GCP goes live I suspect we will actually see a net decrease after everyone uses up their points.

[Rathustra]

If your new, and don't have any karma, can you still special app for something?

Let's say that special app gets accepted. Will I then be forced to play that character, and have to quit my current one? Does it just wait for you until the living, active character dies?

According to 'help special application':

Special Applications                                               (Account)

  Players may submit up to three special applications per year, at most one
per month.  A special application allows players to request to play a
character that is up to three karma points higher than their current karma.

  All Special Applications should be submitted through the Request Tool.

See Also:
  Karma, Request Tool

That means yes! a new player with 0 karma can submit a special application for a character with any of the currently available extended subguilds. It is important to consider what we mean by 'new' though - for a player's first character? This is unlikely to be approved as even when players apply for guilds, etc. within the +3 karma range we consider their account notes and so on before approving it.

If approved, your new guild/subguild options will be available the next time you create a character. This requires the storage or death of your existing character.

[Armaddict]

In fact, disregard of most of the docs as magickers become more prevalent

I don't think they can get more prevalent than a few different times in the past that I've seen.  Considering that these are also special applications at this time, I wouldn't expect a giant influx like you're making it sound, either.

Besides.  They're being tested out.  If something ends up being a problem, well...here is where we'll find out.  I'd suggest you keep in touch with staff during this time to provide good feedback.  Nothing will get found out based off of our speculations here, regardless.

[musashi]

Considering that the magicker subguilds are not even selectable at this moment, even with a special app ... I don't see a surge of magickers happening just yet anyway.

[Booya]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you special app for your next character with a super subguild while you're still playing your current one?

Or do you have to take a week or more out the game while you get approved and work out a time to hook up with the staff to set up your character?

[HavokBlue]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented.  No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts.  You can bet my next PC will be a special app!

But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.

Given that you currently have to special app to get access to this system anyway, I don't see what the problem is? Because when you special app, you can request a concept that's up to three points above your current level. Since you are already having to special app to get these subguilds, is it that awful to just ask for your three extra points in your special app?

Which means that if you want to play your Vivaduan/Protector idea, you'd be able to app it just fine on normal Vivaduan karma, provided staff approve it.

I'm honestly not trying to be a dick here, I'm just trying to figure out how you think we'd need "a lot" of karma for these.

There are still some mundane classes (e.g. sneaky types) who might wish to avoid being guild sniffed.

Agreeing with this. The only time I ever got seriously guild sniffed, I was playing a ranger of all things. It sucked. I was trying to play a PC who had never seen combat at all and was terrified of fighting, but led people through storms as a guide for a living. (This was before direction sense became a skill that subguilds could pick up--woe for that PC.) She got hired into Kurac as a sifter, which was AWESOME.

... Until the local Fist Sarge found out she could see in storms and knew she'd "have a knack for fighting" and forced her into the Fist. It took me approximately 5 RL days of being in a scheduled combat clan in Red Storm as an offpeaker before I stored. I don't think I saw a single PC after Sergeant Asshat forced me into the unit.

I'm pretty sure they only require special applications during the trial period before actual CGP code is implemented.

[Rathustra]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but can you special app for your next character with a super subguild while you're still playing your current one?

Or do you have to take a week or more out the game while you get approved and work out a time to hook up with the staff to set up your character?

I know for certain that the expanded subguilds will not require setup - you will be able to enter the game with them. I cannot say for sure if the same is true for skill bumps arranged via special application, however.

[Nyr]

We're not going to give warriors backstab, by the way.  I think it's kinda obvious we wouldn't, but just to be clear, we are not going to do that at all.

warrior/slipknife

also i linked to the original post but i could not right the date.

Three things:

--I said this (6 months ago--by the way, the date will be inputted automatically if you use the "quote" button on an existing post as I did with yours) knowing full well we had a system going in place that would create this possibility; this has been in the works and in discussion for about a year or more.  We typically don't speculate on projects going on staff-side until they have been revealed.
--This system was developed with the idea of balancing more powerful subguilds with the expectation that CGP would have to both exist and be used to "pay" for it.
--This thread is for discussion of the extended subguilds.  Please limit discussion here to the extended subguilds rather than what staffers have said about the game when this system was not a speck in the eyes of the players.  If you have nothing better to do, keep your opinions to yourself.

[Aaron Goulet]

I don't suppose that the GCP concept is in the works already?  Or is it pending a successful trial run first?

[brytta.leofa]

I think it's a step in the right direction, especially when GCP(?) are implemented.  No more spamming magicker characters every time you die, but more importantly, it should help to combat guild sniffing and give people more flexibility with their character concepts.  You can bet my next PC will be a special app!

But it only helps with guild sniffing if you have a lot of karma, or are playing a mundane class already.

Aggressor, protector, and slipknife both cost 3 CXP, so, if you're able to play a given magick guild, beefing them up as a mundane combatant is within extreme specapp range.  Which seems about right.  A krathi with parry and ultimate shield use--or hide--probably should be karma 7.

[brytta.leofa]

Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?

[Nyr]

Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?

Looks like Master Trader has you covered.  It alludes to it; perhaps it should be more clear.

[Nyr]

I don't suppose that the GCP concept is in the works already?  Or is it pending a successful trial run first?

CGP, good sir, CGP.  The concept is certainly laid out, but we are doing a trial run of some of the subguilds first, yes.

[AreteX]

I was quite excited at the first prospect of reading into this and thinking how I might be able to try out some of these subguilds, then I saw they all required CGP(Karma).   I then realized that most of these, even the most "basic" mundane versions are out of my reach.

I really do like how things are being added to enhance the game, but there are a very large group of us players who do NOT have Karma and are unable to experience ANY of this new stuff going into the game.  I do hope with the CGP system that perhaps it flows more freely in the future(for instance character longevity) and the like... but...

Its a bit disheartening that things are being added and they're just more things out of my reach.


Otherwise:  This is a really awesome addition and I am sure if I had access to any of it I would be extremely pleased and happy

[Aaron Goulet]

Oh, oh, more question:
3) Subguild cavilish?

Yes, please!  I'd say it would be cool if it came with any of the master crafting guilds (making it easier to fly under the radar).  Another option might be to let players add new languages at a CGP-per rate in additon to a subguild (effectively functioning similarly to skill bumps).

Edit: Looks like I was in too late.  And thanks for correcting me, Nyr, I was making myself look stoopid.