Voicemail!

[musashi]

Like Lizzie pointed out as well, at least I think it was Lizzie ...

I bet a lot of those "messages" you got would be people thinking you're online.

"Hey what's up?"
"I'm thinking of going hunting you wanna come?"
"Are you there?"
"Helllllllllllllllo?"
"Ok maybe you're just busy or sleeping or something, I'll talk to you later."
x6

That would probably get a bit annoying.

[FantasyWriter]

I throw my vote in that it would be more trouble than it is worth for both players and staff.

[Synthesis]

I don't see why "it would let you know when people have died" is being put forth as a legitimate counter-argument.  Assuming you know your contact skill is able to crush any barrier given enough repeated attempts, it certainly stands to reason that you would in fact be able to tell with a fairly high degree of certainty (psi-blocking powers etc. notwithstanding) whether someone is dead or not.  That is, the only reasonable explanations for failing to contact someone should be: 1) I suck at contact; 2) He has a barrier up; 3) He's in some miscellaneous psi-blocked state; or 4) He's dead.  There should be no 5) He's merely off-line.

The "ooh, but it adds an element of mystery" argument is silly.  Morgenes could code a chest-relocating routine that would periodically remove chests from people's apartments and randomly place them in another room, and it would be awfully mysterious, and would generate a shitload of miniquests as people tried to recover their loot.  It also would make no fucking sense whatsoever.  Sort of like the argument given.

[Down Under]

I don't see why "it would let you know when people have died" is being put forth as a legitimate counter-argument.  Assuming you know your contact skill is able to crush any barrier given enough repeated attempts, it certainly stands to reason that you would in fact be able to tell with a fairly high degree of certainty (psi-blocking powers etc. notwithstanding) whether someone is dead or not.  That is, the only reasonable explanations for failing to contact someone should be: 1) I suck at contact; 2) He has a barrier up; 3) He's in some miscellaneous psi-blocked state; or 4) He's dead.  There should be no 5) He's merely off-line.

The "ooh, but it adds an element of mystery" argument is silly.  Morgenes could code a chest-relocating routine that would periodically remove chests from people's apartments and randomly place them in another room, and it would be awfully mysterious, and would generate a shitload of miniquests as people tried to recover their loot.  It also would make no fucking sense whatsoever.  Sort of like the argument given.

That's one argument, but I can't honestly think you'd approve of logging into a slew of "hey, what's up" or 'hey, where's my order" messages is cool, Synthesis. It doesn't really add anything to the game, and would be a waste of time for coders (I imagine).

[Synthesis]

I wouldn't really mind having psi reminders about what I'm supposed to be doing in-game.

I'd just make it like an invisible, automated rumor board that follows you around wherever you go.  Post title is the sdesc you received from the psi, post message is the psi message they sent.  Board is readable whenever/wherever you decide to read it.  Aesthetically, it's identical to something already in-game, and its obtrusiveness is countered by the fact that, you know, now you can actually receive that final, desperate psi-message from your mate right before he's tracked down and eaten by a robo-mantis.

I'm pretty sure that the playerbase can handle the responsibility.  Egregious offenders could simply have their ability to leave messages revoked.

Edited to add:  Also, the board could be updated when you're online as well, which would cover a second feature that's been asked for before--the ability to recall a list of recent psi messages you've received (server-side, rather than client-side).

[Delirium]

I actually like this, in theory. It'd make it a little easier to stay in touch with PCs if your playtimes get out of sync for a while.

The problem I see is how to alert the sender as to whether they're not responding because they're offline (and would otherwise get back to you), or not responding for an IC reason, without opening the "yep, s/he is definitely logged out" can of worms, or alternatively, the "why didn't you respond to my desperate plea for help you jerkbag!" can of worms.

[Lizzie]

Templar Sue contacts Amos, and gets voicemail.
Templar Sue sends, psionically, in templar-accented sirihish, "You'd better answer me - I know you're there. If you don't answer me I will kill your husband, the Lord Oash, who I have in my room with me right now. You have one hour to respond."

Except - you're at work, and don't even know Templar Sue was looking for you, til you get home 6 hours later, have supper, and log on. And now, Lord Oash is dead. And it's your character's fault, ICly, because your character was perfectly messagable, but refused to answer the summons. Sucks to be you, huh.

And if voicemail wasn't an option and Sue really intended to force you to answer, with Oash as the bait - her player would've known to try another time and hope to ACTUALLY get in touch with you. Or maybe she killed Oash on purpose, BECAUSE she knew you were logged out and there wasn't a damned thing you could do to prevent it. You'll never know, thanks to the handy addition of voicemail.

Armageddon is a multi-player game, not a forum game. It is a "live" game, not an e-mail game. It is also not a turn-based game, where one person does something, and life comes to a halt until the other person responds. Armageddon is this way, for a reason. If I wanted turn-based or forum-based or e-mail based fun, I'd play a turn-based or forum-based or e-mail based game.

I'm still not over the staff's withdrawal from playing clan bosses to regularly address clan PC leaders in game. Though I understand the reasoning behind it, I still can't stand sending e-mailed reports ICly, to my character's IC bosses and hoping for an e-mailed IC response. The last thing I want is a list of messages I've missed from characters while I was logged out of the game - or worse - while I had my barrier up, on purpose, because I did -not- want to be contacted.

[DustMight]

Templar Sue contacts Amos, and gets voicemail.
Templar Sue sends, psionically, in templar-accented sirihish, "You'd better answer me - I know you're there. If you don't answer me I will kill your husband, the Lord Oash, who I have in my room with me right now. You have one hour to respond."

Having played a noobish templar, I have to say that is silly.   

[Synthesis]

Templar Sue contacts Amos, and gets voicemail.
Templar Sue sends, psionically, in templar-accented sirihish, "You'd better answer me - I know you're there. If you don't answer me I will kill your husband, the Lord Oash, who I have in my room with me right now. You have one hour to respond."

Except - you're at work, and don't even know Templar Sue was looking for you, til you get home 6 hours later, have supper, and log on. And now, Lord Oash is dead. And it's your character's fault, ICly, because your character was perfectly messagable, but refused to answer the summons. Sucks to be you, huh.

And if voicemail wasn't an option and Sue really intended to force you to answer, with Oash as the bait - her player would've known to try another time and hope to ACTUALLY get in touch with you. Or maybe she killed Oash on purpose, BECAUSE she knew you were logged out and there wasn't a damned thing you could do to prevent it. You'll never know, thanks to the handy addition of voicemail.

Armageddon is a multi-player game, not a forum game. It is a "live" game, not an e-mail game. It is also not a turn-based game, where one person does something, and life comes to a halt until the other person responds. Armageddon is this way, for a reason. If I wanted turn-based or forum-based or e-mail based fun, I'd play a turn-based or forum-based or e-mail based game.

I'm still not over the staff's withdrawal from playing clan bosses to regularly address clan PC leaders in game. Though I understand the reasoning behind it, I still can't stand sending e-mailed reports ICly, to my character's IC bosses and hoping for an e-mailed IC response. The last thing I want is a list of messages I've missed from characters while I was logged out of the game - or worse - while I had my barrier up, on purpose, because I did -not- want to be contacted.

1) The scenario wouldn't make sense because:
a) under the current game-code setup, there's no guarantee that the person contacted is actually at the keyboard, anyway.  It's perfectly common to contact someone and not get a response for an hour, or even never.
b) if people know there's an answering system in place, it would be ridiculous to make time-sensitive demands like that over the Way, and you could easily justify filing a player complaint about it.

2) Your forum vs. live-action argument isn't really consequential, as far as I can tell.

3) Okay, some people have made the point that they don't like to be annoyed by Way messages.  Actually, I find this stance curious, given your seething insistence that Armageddon is a multi-player game.  To address this point, I suggested a recorded-messages format that would be as little intrusive as possible (a rumor-board format, accessible anywhere, at leisure...not automatically upon login).  You can feel free to completely ignore these messages, just as you're free to ignore messages you receive via the Way when you're logged in.

4) To counter (3), above:  many people find it annoying that it is quite difficult to communicate with some PCs, because either they, or the target PC logs in infrequently.  I believe that if you calculated up the relative hedons here, the nuisance (to which we've admittedly grown quite accustomed) of being unable to contact a character who by all rights should be contactable vastly outweighs the nuisance of having to read some additional lines of text, the vast majority of the time.  In other words:  you'd just have to deal with it, for the greater good.

[Whiran Luck]

Not going to touch 1 or 2, but I will 3.

I don't think anyone has made the argument that they are annoyed by being contacted by people via the way. When someone is ICly, and they are sufficiently 'annoyed' or have one of twenty other reasons for using the 'barrier' skill which ensures, given the skill is high enough, that they will most likely not have people successfully use psionically-based communication skills on them, that would mean that they are -not contactable- by these people leaving messages. However, this does not check that the person can leave them a message. It just assumes that they can and are able to leave them some message outside of a skill check automagically, whether or not they are able to receive it. It's not just a one way street. I'm not going to hazard a guess whether or not this is always true, but in most cases, try to use a psionic skill when you have barrier up. How is it remotely fair or feasible to add a workaround to something codebased which ignores a skill being used to prevent it in the first place? Unless you propose that barrier and any barrier related skills are removed or the psionics system is completely revamped in order to facilitate this 'voicemail'.

As far as 4 goes:

Sure. It's a fair argument. But does anything really change when instead of actually being able to roleplay or sit down, what then ensues is a weeks-long equivalent to answering-machine tag? How does this benefit the game more than telling your aides/friends/associates/allies to contact this person and arrange a time to actually meet or discuss what you're trying to do anyways? How does doing otherwise add more to the game than the current system, in your eyes, detracts from it?

And further, how is it fair to any classes who presumably have ways to catch psionic transmissions (not confirming or denying they can or hazarding a guess as to what is possible). But assuming some not-common psionic talents allow you to do this, doesn't 'psionic voicemail' rob these sorts of characters from IC opportunities to listen in on said conversations via the way? How would you allow this sort of thing to happen, if it will interfere with the playability or skills of these sorts of characters? Or is their enjoyment/skillset also something which does not contribute to the game? Will you have all messages sent to them too?

Finally, what makes you qualified to judge as to the nuisance level people are feeling as opposed to one scenario or another? While some people wouldn't mind a couple lines of extra text, other players may very much mind logging in to see 30+ lines of 'missed' messages, or putting down their barrier, which they have expressly kept up, only to be flooded with messages. And if there's the possibility of -ignoring- these messages, as in a virtual message board, then what is the point of having it in the first place?

I see a lot of the problems or OOCly awkward situations caused by something like this far outweighing the benefits of even getting to the point where implementing something like this is possible without making other aspects of the game, coded ones, worthless.

[Synthesis]

Not going to touch 1 or 2, but I will 3.

I don't think anyone has made the argument that they are annoyed by being contacted by people via the way. When someone is ICly, and they are sufficiently 'annoyed' or have one of twenty other reasons for using the 'barrier' skill which ensures, given the skill is high enough, that they will most likely not have people successfully use psionically-based communication skills on them, that would mean that they are -not contactable- by these people leaving messages. However, this does not check that the person can leave them a message. It just assumes that they can and are able to leave them some message outside of a skill check automagically, whether or not they are able to receive it. It's not just a one way street. I'm not going to hazard a guess whether or not this is always true, but in most cases, try to use a psionic skill when you have barrier up. How is it remotely fair or feasible to add a workaround to something codebased which ignores a skill being used to prevent it in the first place? Unless you propose that barrier and any barrier related skills are removed or the psionics system is completely revamped in order to facilitate this 'voicemail'.

As far as 4 goes:

Sure. It's a fair argument. But does anything really change when instead of actually being able to roleplay or sit down, what then ensues is a weeks-long equivalent to answering-machine tag? How does this benefit the game more than telling your aides/friends/associates/allies to contact this person and arrange a time to actually meet or discuss what you're trying to do anyways? How does doing otherwise add more to the game than the current system, in your eyes, detracts from it?

And further, how is it fair to any classes who presumably have ways to catch psionic transmissions (not confirming or denying they can or hazarding a guess as to what is possible). But assuming some not-common psionic talents allow you to do this, doesn't 'psionic voicemail' rob these sorts of characters from IC opportunities to listen in on said conversations via the way? How would you allow this sort of thing to happen, if it will interfere with the playability or skills of these sorts of characters? Or is their enjoyment/skillset also something which does not contribute to the game? Will you have all messages sent to them too?

Finally, what makes you qualified to judge as to the nuisance level people are feeling as opposed to one scenario or another? While some people wouldn't mind a couple lines of extra text, other players may very much mind logging in to see 30+ lines of 'missed' messages, or putting down their barrier, which they have expressly kept up, only to be flooded with messages. And if there's the possibility of -ignoring- these messages, as in a virtual message board, then what is the point of having it in the first place?

I see a lot of the problems or OOCly awkward situations caused by something like this far outweighing the benefits of even getting to the point where implementing something like this is possible without making other aspects of the game, coded ones, worthless.

1) It's already been argued that barrier stays up while offline, and barrier would prevent messages from being left, assuming the barrier skill is appropriately high.

2) Sometimes week-long phone tag is all you need.  For example, if I'm a ranger sharing an apartment with a merchant who only logs in once a week, I can leave him a message saying "what kind of shit you need, brah?" and he can leave me a message saying "yo dawg, I need some of them pimp-ass striped skins for my pimp cloaks," and we can both get on with our business.

3) I'm sure appropriate psionic skills can be added or modified to allow for psi-voicemail snooping.

4) Maybe I'm not a qualified judge of nuisance level, but then again, being annoyed by text messages from other players in the context of a text-based multiplayer game is supremely picky.  Deliberately advocating against allowing other players to receive such messages, regardless of the benefits they may gain, because you can't be arsed to read a few lines of text is just plain being a dick, quite frankly.

[Nyr]

We're not going to do this; we've expressed this before on similar proposals.

[evilcabbage]

We're not going to do this; we've expressed this before on similar proposals.

I agree with Nyr. This would drive me batshit insane, and it would probably drive other people insane when I tried to message them with it because I'm inclined to use it even though I really don't think it's a good idea, so I'm glad that staff says*DEEP BREATH* that they're not going to do this.

[Synthesis]

We're not going to do this; we've expressed this before on similar proposals.

Well, yeah, I know this.

But there are good reasons and bad reasons for not doing it, and I was a little bored with seeing the bad reasons getting all the airtime.

[Nyr]

Oh, yeah.  There are good and bad and in-between, for sure.

[evilcabbage]

My biggest peeve would be if I were to, say, take a month vacation from Arm.

I don't want to come back and see a months worth of Psi's from, say, superiors, inferiors, common folk, nobles, people I slept with, people I won't sleep with, asking me where I am, how I'm doing, why the fuck I'm not at training, why am I not talking to them. For a month.

Not to mention the obvious "barrier" issue where if you have barrier up, there's a reason it's up.

Maybe if the psi's expired after an RL day it would be more doable and feasible?

[Synthesis]

My biggest peeve would be if I were to, say, take a month vacation from Arm.

I don't want to come back and see a months worth of Psi's from, say, superiors, inferiors, common folk, nobles, people I slept with, people I won't sleep with, asking me where I am, how I'm doing, why the fuck I'm not at training, why am I not talking to them. For a month.

Not to mention the obvious "barrier" issue where if you have barrier up, there's a reason it's up.

Maybe if the psi's expired after an RL day it would be more doable and feasible?

If it were implemented like a board, with a date and a time, you could simply ignore the ones that were too far in the past.  Alternatively, there could be a 50-psi maximum, with the oldest being automatically removed from the list.

[EldritchOrigins]

I think it'd be a problem getting the messages to the correct recipient.  Considering that messages are intended for characters that aren't currently logged on.  That's a lot of characters, many of them share names/keywords.  I think that when using certain keywords to contact people there'd be a considerable chance to send the message to the wrong person.  And then there's the problem that others have mentioned that there is no way of knowing if a person ever got the message.

I can only imagine reviving several messages from a jilted lover begging repeatedly to find out why they are being ignored.

[Akaramu]

What if this was implemented only for clan leads, and would only work for those PCs who are in their clans? Joe Schmoe couldn't spam lord templar Fancypants to death, but his militia captain and aide could reach him despite dodgy playtimes.

[Samoa]

What if this was implemented only for clan leads, and would only work for those PCs who are in their clans? Joe Schmoe couldn't spam lord templar Fancypants to death, but his militia captain and aide could reach him despite dodgy playtimes.

That's what the clan forums are for.

[Akaramu]

What if this was implemented only for clan leads, and would only work for those PCs who are in their clans? Joe Schmoe couldn't spam lord templar Fancypants to death, but his militia captain and aide could reach him despite dodgy playtimes.

That's what the clan forums are for.

You can't put IC information on clan forums unless it's something vague and adresses the whole clan equally.

[Samoa]

What if this was implemented only for clan leads, and would only work for those PCs who are in their clans? Joe Schmoe couldn't spam lord templar Fancypants to death, but his militia captain and aide could reach him despite dodgy playtimes.

That's what the clan forums are for.

You can't put IC information on clan forums unless it's something vague and adresses the whole clan equally.

"Private Amos has been seen in the barracks regularly, asking around for Lieutenant Malik."

Coordinate playtimes from there. If you can't coordinate playtimes at all due to being in differing time zones, you probably shouldn't be in the same clan with that person as your superior/hireling.

[Akaramu]

This isn't about coordinating playtimes, it's about forwarding critical IC info that helps keep plots alive even though you can't find the other person online for awhile. Like you would do with normal waying ingame, except it's for someone important whose playtimes don't match.

Such like: "psi I am sitting in jail - lord Templar Fancypants has threatened to execute me if he does not hear from you to explain this task you ordered me to do, my lord."

I actually did lose one PC because her superior was never online...

"Private Amos has been seen in the barracks regularly, asking around for Lieutenant Malik."

Coordinate playtimes from there. If you can't coordinate playtimes at all due to being in differing time zones, you probably shouldn't be in the same clan with that person as your superior/hireling.

I'm European. 85% (guess based on experience) of all clan leaders are outside of my timezone. Are you telling me not to play in clans? I usually have to live with meeting leaders every other weekend, and then someone is ill, or swamped with work, and I miss a full month of clan reports and my plot has died.

I know how to coordinate playtimes... but maybe you find it hard to imagine just how much my timezone sucks. 

[Talia]

You have solutions available to you already. 1. Leave a message with another PC in game. 2. Post on the clan forum that you want to see them. 3. Send the player a PM asking for an IC meeting. 4. If all else fails, use the request tool to write to your clan staff and see if the message can be relayed by staff.

If you do all that and still somehow cannot connect with your clan leader, then your clan leader has probably stopped playing. And any number of alternate solutions to get that character a message are not going to help, when the PC is stored or dead or completely inactive.