The Red Shirt Syndrome

[Spoon]

I especially like Whiran's parts about the mindset of PCs.

Maybe that's something to look into, jrilely. Of course, I have no idea how you play your characters, but if even you are referring to them as red shirts, are they possibly coming out bland and humble? If you want to play Kirk, you've got to get out of you comfort zone and act like a dick all the time.

[Nyr]

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

I would definitely like to see a response to these questions, jriley.  I'm bumping this so that it is not missed.  I'm hopeful that you're interested in dialogue.

[musashi]

Don't do it jriley ... it's a trap!

[Dalmeth]

The problem you have here, jriley, is that most of what you consider to be the, "haves," are social parasites.  Your, "have-nots," are aspiring social parasites.  The do-ers outside of this scheme are what drive the game, be they staff or player, and most people know that whether or not a sponsored role works or doesn't relies on having one or two of these.

Hope that helps.

[Reiloth]

Also, sponsored roles are not teh evil. True, most of the sponsored roles i've applied for i've gotten (With two declines out of maybe six or seven). But i'd like to think it's not because i'm a sycophant or 'favored' by the Staff (in fact I really don't think that's the case). I'd like to think it's because I put in thoughtful, detailed applications, have pretty stellar account notes, and play Armageddon like a boss. The "haves" (If you're speaking about it in an OOC sense) get what they want because they play the game for keeps. I don't play Armageddon to waste time or sit in a bar and be bored (in a virtual game no less, how sad). I play Armageddon to:

• Chop up motherfuckers with bone swords.
• Backstab motherfuckers with bone daggers
• Create intrigue and plots and enemies and allies
• Explore the great unknown of the Known World

And so on. I suppose if you want to be a STAR, nothing is stopping you. Just do what you want, when you want. Someone's being an asshole to you? Stalk them at night and kill them in cold blood. Learn the crim code, and act appropriately. Most people think they are safe in a city, but they really aren't. Someone's talking shit to you in a bar with brawlcode? Brawl them, don't just be passive. Characters I truly enjoy are those that stand for something and have an almost tangible personality. I dunno, man. I was and still can get jaded about this game, and it just isn't fun. You gotta change your perspective so you can have fun again.

[jriley]

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

I would definitely like to see a response to these questions, jriley.  I'm bumping this so that it is not missed.  I'm hopeful that you're interested in dialogue.

Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately I'm running late to class and so will not have time to make a proper response this evening.  I'll respond as soon as I'm able.  In the mean time, it seems like plenty of other folks are weighing in with useful information about game-play that could help any other persons who have similar or related questions.

I'm sorry for the delay.

-Joe

[jriley]

Occupy the North Road. We are the 99%!

Hah!  LOL!  Seriously, I took a careful mental inventory and realized that I can't get behind the Occupation Kids because they are unwilling to promote their own economic welfare, are not willing to take available jobs and expect the people at the top of the pyramid to go out on a limb for them.  By contrast, I have improved my own role-play, I've always been willing to take low-ranking game roles and I've never asked anything from the most privileged players except to be entertaining, and to occasionally allow junior players to have a crack at things.  Some of them react with hostility at the suggestion.  

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

Thank you for asking.  

For example, a couple of years ago I ran into a character that was a Sergeant (or Lieutenant) in a militia.  He had jacked stats, and a steel sword.  Seriously.  My character didn't have anything like that.  I think I fetched him coffee or something.  

I can understand that guy having a cooler job, a loftier title, better stats or a custom item, but having a cooler job, a better rank, jacked stats and a damn metal sword was a bit much.  Did the guy earn it?  Probably.  Was he a better role-player than me?  In my opinion, yes.  But was he like three times awesomer than me?  It's hard not to have that as a take-away.  

What kind of an outreach program would be cool?  Seems like Talia is able to come up with some good metrics.  Why not run a report of everyone in game that has been playing for more than a couple of years and still hasn't gotten anything awesome.  Then send 'em a note asking if they think everything is cool.  You can send my note last.  Maybe ask them if they're happy with the roles they're getting?  Personally, I don't mind playing Redshirts, but I'd be happier playing a redshirt if the wealth were spread a little better.

I've played more bums and winos (need more than one hand to count) than some players have played non-nobles over the same interval.

I came to this thread hoping for tips and advice on playing a Red Shirt and I am severely disappointed.

Well you sure came to the right place!  Believe me, I've got almost ten years experience.  Are you saying you're better at playing nobles?  If you're having trouble playing redshirts, just try to remember that redshirts almost never know that they're a redshirt.  In their own mind, they are the hero of a very lame, lame story.  Also try to bear in mind that playing a redshirt can be quite a challenge!  In most cases, redshirts have something holding them back that has prevented their ascendancy to the ninja ranks.  Try playing a character who doesn't see any point in maintaining a bank account, or a character that can't count past the number ten, or a character that thinks witches are after him, or a character that blurts out inappropriate things at the wrong time.  Redshirts stories are always far more dramatic then whatever guy currently happens to be running the Guild.

I fully endorse the other thread that some guy has written about redshirts.*

Occupy the North Road. We are the 99%!

I'll be there with with the mace.

Careful you will get straight up banned for something this awesome.

lots of stuff

The statistics help.  A little transparency can be a good thing.  Still, it sometimes seems that staff will spend five minutes typing me an email explaining why they can't help me with something that would only take seven minutes to install.

Hmm...I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always found Arm to be rather charming in that the staff gives me a wide berth to be an indie and lets me make a ton of money as a nobody.  As a veteran player, I've seen the overall play of the game improve, with very few actual objections.  Of those, being a rich nobody has never been one of them.

No, I feel the same way.  It's why I always play redshirts.  There's much less constraints on like a human warrior or something.  The most restrictive role I've ever attempted was to play a Soh Lanna Kah, (SLK?) and I didn't like the role for that reason.  Since that experience, I've deliberately played spiceheads, sell-swords and low-lifes.  I can play more or less by my own rules.

The turning point for me was just to design roles that required 0 staff interaction.  

I've had staff do some real cool stuff sometimes, like play NPC and stuff.

Only things I can count on in Armageddon is an obsidian sword and a full skin of water.  

The rules prevent you even from playing with your friends.

I especially like Whiran's parts about the mindset of PCs.

Maybe that's something to look into, jrilely. Of course, I have no idea how you play your characters, but if even you are referring to them as red shirts, are they possibly coming out bland and humble? If you want to play Kirk, you've got to get out of you comfort zone and act like a dick all the time.

Hah hah!  That's not only how to win at Arm, it's how to win a life.

The problem you have here, jriley, is that most of what you consider to be the, "haves," are social parasites.  Your, "have-nots," are aspiring social parasites.  The do-ers outside of this scheme are what drive the game, be they staff or player, and most people know that whether or not a sponsored role works or doesn't relies on having one or two of these.

Hope that helps.

No, seriously I agree.  Another player alluded to this in another thread, and like everyone was privately agreeing with him, but publicly pretending to be scandalized.  I think it's better to admit that a lot of people powergame and that the deck is not stacked evenly.  If that's the case, better to be honest about it.


*Actually I didn't read it.

[Saellyn]

• Backstab motherfuckers with bone daggers

Make sure the dagger is a "Stabbing" weapon (and this is in the helpfile!)

[Synthesis]

Are you trying to argue that it's not fair that you don't get anywhere with your admittedly shitty characters?  You don't need to have the Staff Special-Role Stamp of Approval to get into leadership positions, as long as you:

1) Stay the fuck alive.
2) Don't have any ridiculous social baggage.
3) Do your job well.
4) Kiss your superior's ass.
5) Stay the fuck alive.

If you're a spice-addicted, mentally-deficient half-breed with one hand and inflammatory bowel disease, don't be surprised if you don't get picked to play Sarge, even if you've been in your clan for 10 IC years (although really, most clans would probably still pick you anyway, after only 5).  In the time since I've really learned how to stay alive, I've attempted to reach leadership positions in a clan with maybe 5 or 6 characters, and I was successful 3 times (the other times the PC died to something random, despite my best efforts...happens even to the best of us).

If you want cool items...thanks to the new mastercrafting policy, you can find an indie merchant and ORDER EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT, provided you're willing and able to pay for it.  If you refuse to do the necessary IC hustling, that ain't the staff's fault.  Hell, when the new subguilds are in (are they in yet?), you won't even need to find a legit merchant.

If your argument is that you personally aren't getting picked for special role apps or your special apps are being consistently and unfairly denied or something, I can't really comment because a) I never apply for sponsored roles and b) my special apps are usually so far over the top that they end up being publicly ridiculed.

The only other things I'm kind of picking up on are...you're not getting enough attaboys or enough Staff interaction via NPCs or whatever...which kind of strike me as petty concerns.

[Marauder Moe]

Hehe.  Socialized awesomeness.

Sorry Corporal Malik, despite your ten years of loyal service, you're just too strong, too fast, too tough, and too smart for us to promote you.  We're giving the job to Private Amos because he's a weak, slow, frail, idiot who really needs a break in life.  Oh, while you're here, I'm gonna need that sword back.  Yes, the one that you pried from the cold dead hands of that false templar you slew single-handedly in glorious battle, and have since wielded to great effect in slaying enemies of the king.

Hey Amos, get in here, I got a present for you!


I dunno, Jriley.  I don't understand what it is you think is preventing you from getting awesome stats/ranks/swords.

[Saellyn]

Hehe.  Socialized awesomeness.

Sorry Corporal Malik, despite your ten years of loyal service, you're just too strong, too fast, too tough, and too smart for us to promote you.  We're giving the job to Private Amos because he's a weak, slow, frail, idiot who really needs a break in life.  Oh, while you're here, I'm gonna need that sword back.  Yes, the one that you pried from the cold dead hands of that false templar you slew single-handedly in glorious battle, and have since wielded to great effect in slaying enemies of the king.

Hey Amos, get in here, I got a present for you!


I dunno, Jriley.  I don't understand what it is you think is preventing you from getting awesome stats/ranks/swords.

Not everyone can be awesome and love their Red Shirt job I guess.

Although I think I just went all barechested recently and stripped myself of redshirtdome.

[Marauder Moe]

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

[hyzhenhok]

Seriously, all you have to do is:

1) Stay alive
2) Be able to choose an organization and stick with it
3) Not be an elf

If you feel like the staff is passing you over for other reasons...frankly, the best clan to prove you have leadership skillz is the Byn. High leadership turnover, a preference for IC-hired clan leaders when possible, lax induction and promotion requirements,  and fucking easy to stay alive.

[hyzhenhok]

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

o rly

[Cutthroat]

I guess I don't get this thread. Jriley, at first from your OP I thought you were talking about being passed over as a player, but now it seems like you're saying your PCs aren't getting the attention you would like from staff, which also definitely seems like a problem that is easily solved by communication with staff.

I agree staff should always be pointing out good things players are doing when they notice, and they often do this, but it's probably easier for them to notice if you're in regular contact with them through the request tool and doing things that enrich the game.

[Marauder Moe]

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

o rly

Doesn't really fit the definition of a redshirt... nor would it seem to fit in the context of Jriley's complaints.

[Nyr]

Forewarning:  I'm not going to patty-cake this and I will be honest based on what you've posted here.  Another warning:  This is a long ass-post.  I've also edited it to include information that was discovered a bit later.

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

Thank you for asking.  

For example, a couple of years ago I ran into a character that was a Sergeant (or Lieutenant) in a militia.  He had jacked stats, and a steel sword.  Seriously.  My character didn't have anything like that.  I think I fetched him coffee or something.  

I question the timetable as well as the rank of this person.  Jacked stats:  we don't set stats on anything but NPCs or special applications, and frankly, you can't tell what someone's stat's are unless they told you or unless you're just guessing.  If someone is a sponsored role, we do set their skills.  Regardless, attaining a metal weapon is practically impossible for anyone that is not a noble or a templar (well, with one noteworthy exception in at least one other area of the game, but you could hardly call that normal), and even if you are one of those nobles or templars, you don't get a metal weapon.  You throw resources at things until you EARN a metal weapon, whether it be by having the resources AND the metal to have a merchant house craft it for you, or whatever.  It's rare.  

It's so rare that this seems made-up...

...which leads me to asking you what this Sergeant or Lieutenant's name was.

Go ahead, post it.  It has been more than a year, and it's okay to post basic things like that, at least, after a year.

edit to add:  This was Paryl, a PC that worked from the ground up to obtain the rank he had.  He was not a sponsored role, nor was he a karma role.  He did not get any skills set or stats boosted.  There was RP done over time to add a skill or two, but it was after loads of work on the PC's part.

I can understand that guy having a cooler job, a loftier title, better stats or a custom item, but having a cooler job, a better rank, jacked stats and a damn metal sword was a bit much.  Did the guy earn it?  Probably.  Was he a better role-player than me?  In my opinion, yes.  But was he like three times awesomer than me?  It's hard not to have that as a take-away.  

I've been on staff since 2007, and I can recall every metal weapon that entered the game since then, or at least I'd like to think so.  No new steel weapon has been created EXCEPT once for a templar, and he'd been around for dozens of IC years and earned the hell out of it at the time.  Either you're mistaken, or yes, he was more than three times awesomer than you.  If you're offended by that, sorry--anyone that lasts that long in a templar role does attain some perks for the job, and that's all done IC.  There is one noble I can recall with metal in a weapon (though it was silver and for etching), one templar I can recall with another metal-ish weapon.  

Maybe one of them let a Sergeant or Lieutenant PC hold it while they were snorting lines of spice off of a whore's ass, but again, this does not seem like something a commoner non-Highborn PC would have gotten except on a very temporary basis.  If a commoner gets a metal object, a noble or templar goes "hey, that's cool, let me take a look."  Then, they pretend it's theirs--or kill the guy.  That's pretty awesome, and we're not changing that.

Now, more than "a couple years ago?"  It's more than possible (go back far enough and you have mantis and halflings having booze together in taverns), but when you're arguing about fairness and roles, you don't help yourself by being inaccurate.  I can recall some situations maybe 6 or 7 years ago in which a metal object was stolen, and overall that was a pretty cool plot.  Guess what?  It was flaunted publicly by a few PCs that were not templars or nobles for a while there, but as with anything important or valuable, it found its way back into a templar's hands.

Again, all we need is a name. I'll even be glad to explain why or how that person got to where they were if it is possible for me to do so.

edit to add:  Paryl was one of the ones I knew had their hands on such a weapon for a limited period of time, and it was the same weapon from the above stolen-metal-object plot, but I didn't really consider it to be "their weapon."  This was more than two years ago, however--closer to four or five.

What kind of an outreach program would be cool?  Seems like Talia is able to come up with some good metrics.  Why not run a report of everyone in game that has been playing for more than a couple of years and still hasn't gotten anything awesome.  Then send 'em a note asking if they think everything is cool.  You can send my note last.  Maybe ask them if they're happy with the roles they're getting?  Personally, I don't mind playing Redshirts, but I'd be happier playing a redshirt if the wealth were spread a little better.

"Gotten?"  No.  I don't see why we'd send out this kind of note.  Why?

We put up public role calls for the following "cool roles:"

Allanaki Templars
Allanaki Nobles
Tuluki Templars

We put up public role calls AND these roles can also be attained in-game/IC for the following "cool roles:"

T'zai Byn Sergeant (you can earn your way up)
GMH family members (you can be adopted into the house)
Jaxa Pah family members (you can earn your way in)
Akai Sjir family members (you can earn your way in)
Allanaki militia leadership (we might need a Sergeant or something and haven't had one pop up in-game, but you can always work your way up)
Tuluki militia leadership (see above)
Hell, Tuluki nobility (you can become a noble in-game, how much more "power to the PC" is that?)

We put up public role calls for the following roles we cannot be attained in-game or IC:

Tan Muark tribals
Soh Lanah Kah tribals
Sun Runners tribals

And finally, the following roles are attainable in-game and generally not advertised-for:

GMH military or merchant or agent leadership that is NOT family
Leadership in The Guild (dun dun dun!)

These people aren't "getting" anything; they're earning it by applying for the role we tell them about publicly. A lot of the time, it's their first time in such a role.

We already have a system where we e-mail people that haven't logged into the game in a while and we let them know what's new.  That's the only "outreach" that I think we need to do.  If you play this game with any regularity (or hell, even at all), you can get off your own butt and talk to staff about what you want to do with a role; we don't need to reach out to you to tell you to do that.  You can achieve all sorts of roles in-game and frankly you can do quite a bit without even touching any method of communication with staff.  However, you more than likely won't make it to any sort of IC clan leadership role that way.

lots of stuff

The statistics help.  A little transparency can be a good thing.  Still, it sometimes seems that staff will spend five minutes typing me an email explaining why they can't help me with something that would only take seven minutes to install.

At no point have you been told anything like that that I can tell.  All of your requests have been handled promptly, the only one remotely questionable was one in which you never offered feedback that we asked for.  

That brings me to a slight sideline here:

You have an account that is not ten years old, which to those of us on staff implies that you have another account out there somewhere that you've appeared to take great pains to hide, and allows you to make claims about staff interaction with your old account without any way for staff to offer an honest response, apology, or defense.  I'd recommend putting in a request to tell us what that account was--both for curiosity's sake, and for making sure any notes on your old account are properly linked to your new account (and so that we can ban the old account; you aren't allowed to have two).  You're only telling one side of the story here for the most part, and that is disingenuous, and makes anything you've posted here in general seem a little suspicious.

The rules prevent you even from playing with your friends.

This is incorrect.  We don't care if people play with their friends.  We do care if they play with them in an unrealistic fashion or an exploitative fashion.

I think it's better to admit that a lot of people powergame and that the deck is not stacked evenly.  If that's the case, better to be honest about it.

Now that you've had your moment to reply, I'd like to point out a few other things.  If you have designed your play so that you play roles that require no staff interaction, it stands to reason that those roles require no staff support.  You have dug this hole for yourself, and it is no surprise that you have gotten no staff support.  If you don't communicate with us, we aren't going to bend over backwards for you.  Just like Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't go door to door asking if people have a problem with alcohol, Armageddon's Staff is not going to waste staff resources on players that won't bother to ask us for help, feedback, or provide truthful details about their account history.

Back to your first points from the OP.

Whenever you have a wide divide between the haves and the have-nots in a social situation, the discrepancy invariably becomes conspicuous to the have-nots that the situation is not egalitarian, particularly where there is a (real or perceived) barrier to upward mobility.  

I would say that yes, there is a perceived barrier to upward mobility.

It is your perception.

What I propose is an admission that the situation lacks a consistent judiciousness,

Admitting this implies that it is true.  It is not.  You have not proven your case.  I reject that premise based on what you've provided here.

as well as an outreach program to people who've been playing for a couple of years to make sure that they feel that they've had an adequate chance at stardom.

You never defined "stardom."  I'll have to make assumptions, then.

On the one hand, you want stardom; on the other, you say you've consistently played roles that require no staff interaction.  Even with that said, I've run into several PCs that I considered "stars" that were not leaders (just Regulars in Kurac, or Privates in the militia, or Apprentice bards).  I considered them stars because they roleplayed well and brought a lot to the game.  You may have your own definition of stardom, but I'm not sure what it is.

I'm going to emphasize some points in your next quote and correct something for you there at the end.

That being said, it could also be the case that there is systemic bias against opportunities for my success, and that the merest boost to my own opportunities might rectify the situation and provide boundless benefits for others.  We I won't know until we I try.  

Bluntly:  go app for a templar or a noble or a GMH family member or a T'zai Byn Sergeant or anything when staff open up a call for it.  You'll have to do better than "help me, boost my opportunities;" you'll have to convince us you want to do one of these roles.    That IS your opportunity:  express your desires through communication.

No, that isn't a guarantee that you'll get the role.  Even you said a boost to your opportunities, not a handout of a sponsored role.  It wouldn't hurt for you to reveal your old account information to us as well, and maybe you have some bad notes or horrible notes or some kind of fracas with staff that you do not feel comfortable sharing.  I've seen some pretty crappy notes before, and I've also seen those people turn around.  We can offer you advice on how to improve your standing with us.  It's important to point out one of the reasons suspicion exists:  you may well have been banned (and for good reason--and you can even appeal THAT, if you'd like to). Until you can prove otherwise, that is always going to linger as a suspicion, and that is going to affect our perception of you.

There is a canon of established players that the staff already knows they can trust and rely upon.  Reaching out to new players might require "unnecessary" effort.

Yes, but even we on staff select new players for stuff when they apply, provided they can handle it.

Earning the trust of veteran players who have been stung plenty of times will take years of conciliations.  

This again makes me think you've been stung plenty of times and you're the one feeling that we need to apologize for something we've done, but you won't tell us what it is and won't tell us who you are.  (By "us" I mean staff.  These other people reading the forum?  They don't need to know what your account is, that's a breach of privacy.  Go ahead and toss in a request, let us review it all.)

Hope that helps--it isn't what you asked for exactly, but it is honest at least.

[Tisiphone]

...which leads me to asking you what this Sergeant or Lieutenant's name was.  

Go ahead, post it.  It has been more than a year, and it's okay to post basic things like that, at least, after a year.

Paryl. I'm fairly certain he's remembering when Samos gave a bronze, not steel, sword to Lieutenant Paryl.

To be fair, it wasn't for keeps. If I remember rightly, it was given to him for combat RPTs, with Samos dabbling in the idea of letting him hold onto it at other times. I don't know for certain if Samos ever did give Paryl the sword on a more lasting lease (but still, definitely a lease, and definitely for sensible IC reasons that I can't disclose) because the templar I was playing at the time died.

[Delirium]

Tis beat me to it. Paryl was quite the storied character, and did a lot of unusual things, but he also lived in a rather unusual time of the game.

The character had been around for quite a while at that point, and had climbed his way up from the bottom. Used to be, he was just a private with a fetish for funny hats.

[Nyr]

Yep, that's who I was figuring, too, but I was not in the South at the time.

Paryl came up from the bottom, as indicated by other players here.  This stuff was not granted to him as a handout, it was by dint of hard work.  Any stats were not set by staff (and truthfully, weren't that impressive--though it doesn't detract from a truly engaging PC, when you get right down to it).  Skills were also attained by hard work rather than being set by staff in this case.

edit to add:  and that would've been between 2005-2008, coming on the tail end of the same plot I mentioned with regards to a stolen metal object (the same weapon).  He was one of the ones that was able to flaunt it, IIRC.

second edit to add:  I edited that long post I made to include the info about Paryl.

[Gimfalisette]

Paryl actually did possess a steel shield ("possess" in the sense of the templarate let him keep it after he acquired it during an RPT), but, he never used it. (And my PC was one of the very few to even know he had it--because Paryl knew how dangerous it was to have.) Samos did think about letting him use, or may have actually let him use, a bronze sword during another RPT or two.

There was nothing non-mundane about Paryl, though. He didn't even have great stats...his mate was stronger than he was She was also able to beat him in combat, eventually.

That PC and others of the time were just great examples of surviving and doing a good job, which eventually turns you into a badass mo-fo. Seriously, best role I ever had, and it was all earned in game.

[Kismetic]

Reading this thread makes me want to work even harder to be badass, and smash antagonize redshirts into the dust.  Thanks, jriley!

[EldritchOrigins]

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

[Kismetic]

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

Arm has a pretty high turnover rate for characters.

[Ktavialt]

To Nyr:

You really put a lot of time and effort in responding to jriley.  More than I would.  Remember, you can't reason somebody out of something that they didn't reason themselves into to begin with.