The Red Shirt Syndrome

[jriley]

A couple of months ago I saw a post by someone that mentioned something along the lines of having the feeling that pretty much every character they've ever played on arm is a Red Shirt*.

I had to laugh when I saw this, because I pretty much felt the same way.  At the time it didn't mean too much more to me than something worthy of a chuckle, but the idea has had time to foment for a bit.  I feel inclined to post about it because a few people don't even seem to be aware of the problem, or are in active denial about it. 

Whenever you have a wide divide between the haves and the have-nots in a social situation, the discrepancy invariably becomes conspicuous to the have-nots that the situation is not egalitarian, particularly where there is a (real or perceived) barrier to upward mobility. 

What I propose is an admission that the situation lacks a consistent judiciousness, as well as an outreach program to people who've been playing for a couple of years to make sure that they feel that they've had an adequate chance at stardom.  I'll post some principles below and also a few more radical suggestions. 




Principles:
Denying that things are great at the top or crappy at the bottom makes things worse, not better.

Any system produces winners and loosers.  It could very well be that I'm some sort of looser who is unfit to succeed in the current hierarchical competitive pyramid of the game through my own defects of character.  That being said, it could also be the case that there is systemic bias against opportunities for my success, and that the merest boost to my own opportunities might rectify the situation and provide boundless benefits for others.  We won't know until we try. 

There is a canon of established players that the staff already knows they can trust and rely upon.  Reaching out to new players might require "unnecessary" effort.

Change must happen gradually.  If the staff were to give me or any other player a psionicist mul-templar sorcerer with a loyal private army and the mandate to reshape the game world according to my own tastes, I might deliberately or accidentally change the game too quickly for the comfort of my fellow players. 

Some players including myself joined the game and spent our formative years under a very different administrative climate.  While improvements like gentler policies, the request tool as well as active quality-control metrics and improved customer service have indeed improved gameplay quite measurably, players who have spent their formative years under "the players don't matter"-type administrations will be hesitant to personally accept that the staff have become as nice and helpful as they may in fact have become.  Earning the trust of veteran players who have been stung plenty of times will take years of conciliations. 


*a stock "cannon fodder" character, originating in the original Star Trek TV series

[Case]

Or players should get over it, work with the people who volunteer to operate your free game and should encourage, inspire and contribute to the game world as best they are able without feeling entitled to some degree of recognition, authority or reward in a relatively deprived context.

[Armaddict]

Or players should get over it, work with the people who volunteer to operate your free game and should encourage, inspire and contribute to the game world as best they are able without feeling entitled to some degree of recognition, authority or reward in a relatively deprived context.

That was beautifully written.

[Krishnamurti]

Occupy the North Road. We are the 99%!

[HavokBlue]

I'll summarize what everybody is going to tell you.

If you want to be a star, go do it.

[Nyr]

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

[Cutthroat]

Denying that things are great at the top or crappy at the bottom makes things worse, not better.

How is claiming that a wide group of players is somehow mistreated without any non-anecdotal evidence any better?

There is a canon of established players that the staff already knows they can trust and rely upon.  Reaching out to new players might require "unnecessary" effort.

Staff sometimes open up sponsored roles very suitable for newer players to get their bearings in a leadership setting. They give tips on how to maintain good contact with them publicly and privately. They allow new players (and vets)  to get in contact with themselves and with Helpers for assistance. I believe they approve new players' characters more quickly. They do a lot of things for new players that tend to go unnoticed, and older established players were new players once.

Any system produces winners and loosers.  It could very well be that I'm some sort of looser who is unfit to succeed in the current hierarchical competitive pyramid of the game through my own defects of character.  That being said, it could also be the case that there is systemic bias against opportunities for my success, and that the merest boost to my own opportunities might rectify the situation and provide boundless benefits for others.  We won't know until we try.

- Participate in private discussions with staff when necessary
- Write character reports regularly (weekly, every two weeks, every month, or less often than that... whatever is necessary for your PC and fits your RL schedule)
- Follow the rules of the game

Those are things any player can do that will boost their opportunities.

Some players including myself joined the game and spent our formative years under a very different administrative climate.  While improvements like gentler policies, the request tool as well as active quality-control metrics and improved customer service have indeed improved gameplay quite measurably, players who have spent their formative years under "the players don't matter"-type administrations will be hesitant to personally accept that the staff have become as nice and helpful as they may in fact have become.  Earning the trust of veteran players who have been stung plenty of times will take years of conciliations.  

You were previously talking about staff treating newer players better, but here it seems you're asking staff to consider veterans more favorably. I'm not entirely sure what to think of this. Veterans have the advantage of increased knowledge of the game, more available roles, and more general experience. Honestly, it seems strange to ask staff to reconcile with you when you were previously asking for equal treatment of all players (which, IMO, is already done though obviously there are exceptions for players who break rules, etc.).

I'd write more but I'd end up repeating myself from previous threads even more. If you want more options, better roles, more experience, go and take it. Do the things that any player can do. In the Antagonize thread Nyr responded to one of your posts with some observations that you might find helpful. You can improve your experience with the game very quickly by following that advice.

[Thunkkin]

I came to this thread hoping for tips and advice on playing a Red Shirt and I am severely disappointed.

[Rhyden]

I came to this thread hoping for tips and advice on playing a Red Shirt and I am severely disappointed.

No joke, so was I.

[Jeshin]

How to play a Red Shirt... Like a boss.

1. You're going to die. Your primary function is to have the most memorable death possible.
2. You need to know some people, but not be important to them. START TALKING TO FOLK.
3. You need to be funny but not make them laugh. Interesting but not make them remember. They have you like you and forget about you the moment you leave their sight.
4. Do -anything- your PC would do. Did that Templar put you in a cell with your longtime red shirt rival. Cue some star trek death music and get to: verbal arguing, slap festing, all out death match.
5. Don't join the byn, instead be that indie who shows up for all the RPTs.

Provided: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AphxyjrH4SE <--- star streak death music.

[Dakota]

Occupy the North Road. We are the 99%!

I'll be there with with the mace.

[Talia]

Whenever you have a wide divide between the haves and the have-nots in a social situation, the discrepancy invariably becomes conspicuous to the have-nots that the situation is not egalitarian, particularly where there is a (real or perceived) barrier to upward mobility. 

What I propose is an admission that the situation lacks a consistent judiciousness, as well as an outreach program to people who've been playing for a couple of years to make sure that they feel that they've had an adequate chance at stardom.  I'll post some principles below and also a few more radical suggestions. 

Just glancing through the request tool, since we started taking role applications that way in the first half of 2010...I see that 18 players have been accepted to play noble or templar roles in Allanak. Of those 18 players, 6 had never played a noble or templar previously. That's a full third. (Most of the newbies had shown us they could perform in the roles by doing things like working their way up into leadership in another clan, or playing a GMH sponsored role responsibly.)

When choosing players for roles, we do weigh in whether a player has played that role previously. Newbies may get a little bit of preference over someone who's gotten to do it a few times before. Of course, newbies also have the noob factor and the "we don't know if this player is going to store immediately" uncertainty factor weighing against them. But all in all, I believe that staff does a very good job of considering all these angles and making good decisions and spreading the love of sponsored roles around.

I very much disagree that staff needs to do outreach so that players can achieve "stardom." For one thing, "stardom" isn't what this game is about; it's not about prima donna moments and calling the shots, rather it's a collaborative storytelling game. For another thing, why is it staff's responsibility to cajole players into applying for sponsored roles, or sending in character reports, or whatever else would need to happen for players to achieve "stardom"?

I guess I just don't get it. If you want the role, the "stardom," the whatever, just go for it. I mean, please, go for it, and stop blaming others for barriers that aren't even there.

[chrisdcoulombe]

[Whiran Luck]

Since I have a habit of writing long posts:
tl;dr version: No one goes into the game a star. It takes time and effort. And a bunch of tips on how to make stuff happen for your character, both plot-wise and rp-wise.

****

I have no idea if I am one of the 'star' players that the OP is referring to. I'm probably not really. I don't read my account notes, I don't request them. I've never requested a karma review. I never go into a character to be a star or a non-red shirt. I've only applied for (and gotten) two characters via sponsored roles ever. I've only ever played 4 non-mundanes in over a decade of playing. I have played some high profile characters in the past. Many of my characters end up in leadership-type positions, without me working hard at actually playing a leader, and sometimes it's been foisted upon me whether I have wanted to play this type of character or not. I have never felt I was playing a red-shirt. Ever. I suspect I am one of the types of players jriley is speaking of.

It's been a long time, but I certainly didn't come into the game this way. I'm not sure if this is just a thread to bitch about entitlement and expectation, but if it isn't, and I'm taking it seriously as asking 'How can I become a trusted, reliable player who plays consistent and fun characters?' then I will tell you what I do (in a way, similar to some of the stuff I posted in the antagonist thread).

- Communicate with staff. I send in a report every week to every two weeks. This is broken into IC and OOC sections, detailing my character's goals, who they interact with, and the things they've done and intend on doing, and also includes information on their current friendships, romantic relationships (If they have any), and people they don't like. If I am planning to kill something or someone, I -always- inform them. I have never been smacked down for doing this, ICly or OOCly. This is my experience, and I cannot speak for everyone. I know some people have complained on other threads. I won't lie, I've had a handful of less than stellar responses in my longer-than-a-decade of playing Arm. But considering I've probably sent in hundreds of character reports and updates, that handful is small comparitively. If you are consistently getting negative responses, try changing the tone of your emails. Generally, if you go into this whole communication thing with an open and flexible mind, and a polite and sincere mode of expressing yourself, you'll generally get favorable responses, even if they may not be the responses you were looking for.

- Limit non-essential communications with other players. There are people I talk to who play or have played Arm. I am not perfect, but I really try to limit the amount of information I give and receive from people currently playing. While I would love to know the details and stories of things, I would rather hear about them IC. If it involves my character, I really don't want to hear it at all. I don't want OOC in my IC, and if I feel it is becoming a problem, I get a little pissed off. I don't like OOC collusion, and I'm not naive enough to imagine it doesn't happen, but I make an active choice to not be part of it and to enjoy my game as cleanly as I can make it.

- Play your characters consistently and appropriately to their mindset. It's a good idea to go into the game having a certain personality to your character that is deep and has reason and meaning. Even if you don't, try to think of something interesting that they do, or are interested in besides the ubiquitous 'chopping muthafuckaz up with bone swordz'. If you play your character as a collection of stats and skill percentages, no matter how good you are at applying veneer over that, it's generally still pretty obvious. Playing realistic characters suited to the environment, and playing them consistently to their mindset, with changes occurring due to IC stimuli instead of player whim is a good way to make your character feel alive and... well, real. And 'real' characters are the really fun ones to interact with. This isn't limited to other players either, as I'm pretty sure the holy grail of admin interaction goes mostly toward characters that are the type I've just talked about. It also gives them reasons to get that interaction instead of trying to extract it, all the while knowing nothing about what makes your character tick. Or randomly and infathomably tocking when you usually tick.

- Don't rush into playing a leader. Minions can be stars and often are, especially well-played minions. It's also a great place to learn how to be a leader and a star, if you're fortunate enough to get a good leader. And usually the best and most fun leaders are the ones who have grown into the job anyway (non-noble/templar roles).

- Don't fall into the mindset of thinking that just because X is a karma class/race it will automatically be fun and not make you a red-shirt. If you can't be fun and a star in a 0-karma role, then you're going to have similar problems in a karma or sponsored role.

- Don't abuse the game, either the code or the role. If you do something that could be considered questionable, let the staff know and explain why you did it and why it seemed realistic. Be prepared to explain yourself. If you cannot conceive of an explanation of why your character would do something, then don't do it. Being trustworthy and communicative as a player goes a long way toward fostering trust toward karma and sponsored leadership roles.

- Don't go into a character with expectations or feeling entitled, no matter how good a player you think you are. You will invariably be disappointed when reality fails to meet your expectations, or what you feel you are entitled to does not mesh with what you actually deserve. Unless you have had a point-blank yes answer to a request, then you're probably not entitled to squat.

- Play as brutal a character as you want, but be considerate of other players. Give other players an out, but don't feel crappy if it's blown off and you end up having to murdalize them anyway.

- Play things out as they go along. Even if it causes you to need to roll up a new character. Sometimes a really awesome and epic death is better than playing someone who constantly plays it safe. But also, don't go against your character's mindset. If your character is paranoid and cautious, unless there's a good reason for it, don't suddenly throw caution to the wind and become super reckless.

- Don't suicide. Especially don't suicide over stats. The second thing is just... well, retarded. The first thing doesn't fit into the game world, leaves a lot of loose ends, and is not only overdone, but generally delivers less into the story line than leaving the character alive and weaving their suicidal griefs into the story. If you are truly bored with a character, or not enjoying playing them and cannot foresee the possibility of enjoyment, just put in a storage request and let the admins know what's been going on, so if loose ends need to be tied up, they can be.

- Do enjoy yourself. People can tell when you're having fun, and they want to be part of it. This includes admins, since they're people too.

- Organic plotlines are a lot more fun and involving than forced plotlines, so think about ways to just let them happen. But never expect other people to make your fun for you. Including any leaders you might have. Minions relying solely on leaders to make conflict and fun for them is the most burnout-inducing aspect of playing a leader, in my estimation.

- Even if it sounds naive, and you're jaded and bitter and have bad experiences happen to you, try to keep an open mind toward your fellow players and expect the best from the players. However, if something happens that's obviously unkosher, then send in a complaint. Just don't make the complaint about how you don't like how the other person RP'd something. I mean you could, but not being an rp nazi and realizing other people rp differently and still have a place with you will probably contribute to you involving more people and more people seeing you as the 'star' you want to be.

- You don't have to be an emoting genius, but dictionaries, thesauruses and having a wide vocabulary help in making emotes interesting. Reading a lot also helps you broaden your literary skills, and this game is about reading. Good grammar helps, and so does capitalization and punctuation. If you can make the world come alive around you without echoes from admins, people are going to make you a star because they want to be around you, and see what you come up with next. This isn't to say that nod/smile isn't a perfectly valid form of expression-- it is. But from my experience, people are more likely going to want to interact with you if you can convey something along with that nod and smile. Doesn't have to be jaw-dropping 3-liner emotes every time, but a little extra can and is often appreciated by your fellow players, and it makes your character stand out from the background, as opposed to fading into it like many red-shirts do.

[Intrepid]

Hmm...I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always found Arm to be rather charming in that the staff gives me a wide berth to be an indie and lets me make a ton of money as a nobody.  As a veteran player, I've seen the overall play of the game improve, with very few actual objections.  Of those, being a rich nobody has never been one of them.

[Saellyn]

I'm confused, what exactly is a red shirt?

[HavokBlue]

I bet there's a line in the OP that explains exactly what a red shirt is.

[Celest]

For those who want a more in depth explanation

[Talia]

I'm not even supposed to be here. I'm just "Crewman Number Six." I'm expendable. I'm the guy in the episode who dies to prove how serious the situation is. I've gotta get outta here.

[Saellyn]

I'm not even supposed to be here. I'm just "Crewman Number Six." I'm expendable. I'm the guy in the episode who dies to prove how serious the situation is. I've gotta get outta here.

Oh.

I have characters like that too. I have characters who start to take their shirts off, and get ready to suit up, and somebody slices their stomach open and laughs with glee. Doesn't stop me from trying to take that shirt off. One of these days I'll have my suit -under- the shirt.


[Edit for "shirt" typo ^^]

[Intrepid]

Oh my god.  Galaxy Quest! 

I love you, Talia.

[boog]

WL's basically right, and I need to take some advice from that post as well.

[TheBadSeed]

-Lotta stuff..

+1

[Fathi]

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

I really hate to just quote Nyr, but I would have a hard time formulating a response to this until I understood what you were talking about, jriley. Are you talking about characters never being able to achieve stardom despite your best attempts? Or are you talking about players never being able to achieve stardom due to being picked in favour of players who are already known quantities?

I guess I'm just trying to decide if these perceived problems are IC or OOC. I honestly can't tell. 

[Armaddict]

The funny thing about WL's post is that it's great.  And it's right.  And it's all talked about as basic guidelines for the game (via the website or staff posts) or common sense for a hardcore, true roleplaying game.

[Spoon]

I especially like Whiran's parts about the mindset of PCs.

Maybe that's something to look into, jrilely. Of course, I have no idea how you play your characters, but if even you are referring to them as red shirts, are they possibly coming out bland and humble? If you want to play Kirk, you've got to get out of you comfort zone and act like a dick all the time.

[Nyr]

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

I would definitely like to see a response to these questions, jriley.  I'm bumping this so that it is not missed.  I'm hopeful that you're interested in dialogue.

[musashi]

Don't do it jriley ... it's a trap!

[Dalmeth]

The problem you have here, jriley, is that most of what you consider to be the, "haves," are social parasites.  Your, "have-nots," are aspiring social parasites.  The do-ers outside of this scheme are what drive the game, be they staff or player, and most people know that whether or not a sponsored role works or doesn't relies on having one or two of these.

Hope that helps.

[Reiloth]

Also, sponsored roles are not teh evil. True, most of the sponsored roles i've applied for i've gotten (With two declines out of maybe six or seven). But i'd like to think it's not because i'm a sycophant or 'favored' by the Staff (in fact I really don't think that's the case). I'd like to think it's because I put in thoughtful, detailed applications, have pretty stellar account notes, and play Armageddon like a boss. The "haves" (If you're speaking about it in an OOC sense) get what they want because they play the game for keeps. I don't play Armageddon to waste time or sit in a bar and be bored (in a virtual game no less, how sad). I play Armageddon to:

• Chop up motherfuckers with bone swords.
• Backstab motherfuckers with bone daggers
• Create intrigue and plots and enemies and allies
• Explore the great unknown of the Known World

And so on. I suppose if you want to be a STAR, nothing is stopping you. Just do what you want, when you want. Someone's being an asshole to you? Stalk them at night and kill them in cold blood. Learn the crim code, and act appropriately. Most people think they are safe in a city, but they really aren't. Someone's talking shit to you in a bar with brawlcode? Brawl them, don't just be passive. Characters I truly enjoy are those that stand for something and have an almost tangible personality. I dunno, man. I was and still can get jaded about this game, and it just isn't fun. You gotta change your perspective so you can have fun again.

[jriley]

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

I would definitely like to see a response to these questions, jriley.  I'm bumping this so that it is not missed.  I'm hopeful that you're interested in dialogue.

Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately I'm running late to class and so will not have time to make a proper response this evening.  I'll respond as soon as I'm able.  In the mean time, it seems like plenty of other folks are weighing in with useful information about game-play that could help any other persons who have similar or related questions.

I'm sorry for the delay.

-Joe

[jriley]

Occupy the North Road. We are the 99%!

Hah!  LOL!  Seriously, I took a careful mental inventory and realized that I can't get behind the Occupation Kids because they are unwilling to promote their own economic welfare, are not willing to take available jobs and expect the people at the top of the pyramid to go out on a limb for them.  By contrast, I have improved my own role-play, I've always been willing to take low-ranking game roles and I've never asked anything from the most privileged players except to be entertaining, and to occasionally allow junior players to have a crack at things.  Some of them react with hostility at the suggestion.  

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

Thank you for asking.  

For example, a couple of years ago I ran into a character that was a Sergeant (or Lieutenant) in a militia.  He had jacked stats, and a steel sword.  Seriously.  My character didn't have anything like that.  I think I fetched him coffee or something.  

I can understand that guy having a cooler job, a loftier title, better stats or a custom item, but having a cooler job, a better rank, jacked stats and a damn metal sword was a bit much.  Did the guy earn it?  Probably.  Was he a better role-player than me?  In my opinion, yes.  But was he like three times awesomer than me?  It's hard not to have that as a take-away.  

What kind of an outreach program would be cool?  Seems like Talia is able to come up with some good metrics.  Why not run a report of everyone in game that has been playing for more than a couple of years and still hasn't gotten anything awesome.  Then send 'em a note asking if they think everything is cool.  You can send my note last.  Maybe ask them if they're happy with the roles they're getting?  Personally, I don't mind playing Redshirts, but I'd be happier playing a redshirt if the wealth were spread a little better.

I've played more bums and winos (need more than one hand to count) than some players have played non-nobles over the same interval.

I came to this thread hoping for tips and advice on playing a Red Shirt and I am severely disappointed.

Well you sure came to the right place!  Believe me, I've got almost ten years experience.  Are you saying you're better at playing nobles?  If you're having trouble playing redshirts, just try to remember that redshirts almost never know that they're a redshirt.  In their own mind, they are the hero of a very lame, lame story.  Also try to bear in mind that playing a redshirt can be quite a challenge!  In most cases, redshirts have something holding them back that has prevented their ascendancy to the ninja ranks.  Try playing a character who doesn't see any point in maintaining a bank account, or a character that can't count past the number ten, or a character that thinks witches are after him, or a character that blurts out inappropriate things at the wrong time.  Redshirts stories are always far more dramatic then whatever guy currently happens to be running the Guild.

I fully endorse the other thread that some guy has written about redshirts.*

Occupy the North Road. We are the 99%!

I'll be there with with the mace.

Careful you will get straight up banned for something this awesome.

lots of stuff

The statistics help.  A little transparency can be a good thing.  Still, it sometimes seems that staff will spend five minutes typing me an email explaining why they can't help me with something that would only take seven minutes to install.

Hmm...I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always found Arm to be rather charming in that the staff gives me a wide berth to be an indie and lets me make a ton of money as a nobody.  As a veteran player, I've seen the overall play of the game improve, with very few actual objections.  Of those, being a rich nobody has never been one of them.

No, I feel the same way.  It's why I always play redshirts.  There's much less constraints on like a human warrior or something.  The most restrictive role I've ever attempted was to play a Soh Lanna Kah, (SLK?) and I didn't like the role for that reason.  Since that experience, I've deliberately played spiceheads, sell-swords and low-lifes.  I can play more or less by my own rules.

The turning point for me was just to design roles that required 0 staff interaction.  

I've had staff do some real cool stuff sometimes, like play NPC and stuff.

Only things I can count on in Armageddon is an obsidian sword and a full skin of water.  

The rules prevent you even from playing with your friends.

I especially like Whiran's parts about the mindset of PCs.

Maybe that's something to look into, jrilely. Of course, I have no idea how you play your characters, but if even you are referring to them as red shirts, are they possibly coming out bland and humble? If you want to play Kirk, you've got to get out of you comfort zone and act like a dick all the time.

Hah hah!  That's not only how to win at Arm, it's how to win a life.

The problem you have here, jriley, is that most of what you consider to be the, "haves," are social parasites.  Your, "have-nots," are aspiring social parasites.  The do-ers outside of this scheme are what drive the game, be they staff or player, and most people know that whether or not a sponsored role works or doesn't relies on having one or two of these.

Hope that helps.

No, seriously I agree.  Another player alluded to this in another thread, and like everyone was privately agreeing with him, but publicly pretending to be scandalized.  I think it's better to admit that a lot of people powergame and that the deck is not stacked evenly.  If that's the case, better to be honest about it.


*Actually I didn't read it.

[Saellyn]

• Backstab motherfuckers with bone daggers

Make sure the dagger is a "Stabbing" weapon (and this is in the helpfile!)

[Synthesis]

Are you trying to argue that it's not fair that you don't get anywhere with your admittedly shitty characters?  You don't need to have the Staff Special-Role Stamp of Approval to get into leadership positions, as long as you:

1) Stay the fuck alive.
2) Don't have any ridiculous social baggage.
3) Do your job well.
4) Kiss your superior's ass.
5) Stay the fuck alive.

If you're a spice-addicted, mentally-deficient half-breed with one hand and inflammatory bowel disease, don't be surprised if you don't get picked to play Sarge, even if you've been in your clan for 10 IC years (although really, most clans would probably still pick you anyway, after only 5).  In the time since I've really learned how to stay alive, I've attempted to reach leadership positions in a clan with maybe 5 or 6 characters, and I was successful 3 times (the other times the PC died to something random, despite my best efforts...happens even to the best of us).

If you want cool items...thanks to the new mastercrafting policy, you can find an indie merchant and ORDER EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT, provided you're willing and able to pay for it.  If you refuse to do the necessary IC hustling, that ain't the staff's fault.  Hell, when the new subguilds are in (are they in yet?), you won't even need to find a legit merchant.

If your argument is that you personally aren't getting picked for special role apps or your special apps are being consistently and unfairly denied or something, I can't really comment because a) I never apply for sponsored roles and b) my special apps are usually so far over the top that they end up being publicly ridiculed.

The only other things I'm kind of picking up on are...you're not getting enough attaboys or enough Staff interaction via NPCs or whatever...which kind of strike me as petty concerns.

[Marauder Moe]

Hehe.  Socialized awesomeness.

Sorry Corporal Malik, despite your ten years of loyal service, you're just too strong, too fast, too tough, and too smart for us to promote you.  We're giving the job to Private Amos because he's a weak, slow, frail, idiot who really needs a break in life.  Oh, while you're here, I'm gonna need that sword back.  Yes, the one that you pried from the cold dead hands of that false templar you slew single-handedly in glorious battle, and have since wielded to great effect in slaying enemies of the king.

Hey Amos, get in here, I got a present for you!


I dunno, Jriley.  I don't understand what it is you think is preventing you from getting awesome stats/ranks/swords.

[Saellyn]

Hehe.  Socialized awesomeness.

Sorry Corporal Malik, despite your ten years of loyal service, you're just too strong, too fast, too tough, and too smart for us to promote you.  We're giving the job to Private Amos because he's a weak, slow, frail, idiot who really needs a break in life.  Oh, while you're here, I'm gonna need that sword back.  Yes, the one that you pried from the cold dead hands of that false templar you slew single-handedly in glorious battle, and have since wielded to great effect in slaying enemies of the king.

Hey Amos, get in here, I got a present for you!


I dunno, Jriley.  I don't understand what it is you think is preventing you from getting awesome stats/ranks/swords.

Not everyone can be awesome and love their Red Shirt job I guess.

Although I think I just went all barechested recently and stripped myself of redshirtdome.

[Marauder Moe]

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

[hyzhenhok]

Seriously, all you have to do is:

1) Stay alive
2) Be able to choose an organization and stick with it
3) Not be an elf

If you feel like the staff is passing you over for other reasons...frankly, the best clan to prove you have leadership skillz is the Byn. High leadership turnover, a preference for IC-hired clan leaders when possible, lax induction and promotion requirements,  and fucking easy to stay alive.

[hyzhenhok]

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

o rly

[Cutthroat]

I guess I don't get this thread. Jriley, at first from your OP I thought you were talking about being passed over as a player, but now it seems like you're saying your PCs aren't getting the attention you would like from staff, which also definitely seems like a problem that is easily solved by communication with staff.

I agree staff should always be pointing out good things players are doing when they notice, and they often do this, but it's probably easier for them to notice if you're in regular contact with them through the request tool and doing things that enrich the game.

[Marauder Moe]

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

o rly

Doesn't really fit the definition of a redshirt... nor would it seem to fit in the context of Jriley's complaints.

[Nyr]

Forewarning:  I'm not going to patty-cake this and I will be honest based on what you've posted here.  Another warning:  This is a long ass-post.  I've also edited it to include information that was discovered a bit later.

Your post is well-written.  There are some things I am not clear on.  I would like to know the answers to a few questions before responding.

1.  What situation are you referring to?
2.  Who are the haves?
3.  Who are the have-nots?
4.  What kind of outreach program?
5.  Can you define "stardom?"

Thank you for asking.  

For example, a couple of years ago I ran into a character that was a Sergeant (or Lieutenant) in a militia.  He had jacked stats, and a steel sword.  Seriously.  My character didn't have anything like that.  I think I fetched him coffee or something.  

I question the timetable as well as the rank of this person.  Jacked stats:  we don't set stats on anything but NPCs or special applications, and frankly, you can't tell what someone's stat's are unless they told you or unless you're just guessing.  If someone is a sponsored role, we do set their skills.  Regardless, attaining a metal weapon is practically impossible for anyone that is not a noble or a templar (well, with one noteworthy exception in at least one other area of the game, but you could hardly call that normal), and even if you are one of those nobles or templars, you don't get a metal weapon.  You throw resources at things until you EARN a metal weapon, whether it be by having the resources AND the metal to have a merchant house craft it for you, or whatever.  It's rare.  

It's so rare that this seems made-up...

...which leads me to asking you what this Sergeant or Lieutenant's name was.

Go ahead, post it.  It has been more than a year, and it's okay to post basic things like that, at least, after a year.

edit to add:  This was Paryl, a PC that worked from the ground up to obtain the rank he had.  He was not a sponsored role, nor was he a karma role.  He did not get any skills set or stats boosted.  There was RP done over time to add a skill or two, but it was after loads of work on the PC's part.

I can understand that guy having a cooler job, a loftier title, better stats or a custom item, but having a cooler job, a better rank, jacked stats and a damn metal sword was a bit much.  Did the guy earn it?  Probably.  Was he a better role-player than me?  In my opinion, yes.  But was he like three times awesomer than me?  It's hard not to have that as a take-away.  

I've been on staff since 2007, and I can recall every metal weapon that entered the game since then, or at least I'd like to think so.  No new steel weapon has been created EXCEPT once for a templar, and he'd been around for dozens of IC years and earned the hell out of it at the time.  Either you're mistaken, or yes, he was more than three times awesomer than you.  If you're offended by that, sorry--anyone that lasts that long in a templar role does attain some perks for the job, and that's all done IC.  There is one noble I can recall with metal in a weapon (though it was silver and for etching), one templar I can recall with another metal-ish weapon.  

Maybe one of them let a Sergeant or Lieutenant PC hold it while they were snorting lines of spice off of a whore's ass, but again, this does not seem like something a commoner non-Highborn PC would have gotten except on a very temporary basis.  If a commoner gets a metal object, a noble or templar goes "hey, that's cool, let me take a look."  Then, they pretend it's theirs--or kill the guy.  That's pretty awesome, and we're not changing that.

Now, more than "a couple years ago?"  It's more than possible (go back far enough and you have mantis and halflings having booze together in taverns), but when you're arguing about fairness and roles, you don't help yourself by being inaccurate.  I can recall some situations maybe 6 or 7 years ago in which a metal object was stolen, and overall that was a pretty cool plot.  Guess what?  It was flaunted publicly by a few PCs that were not templars or nobles for a while there, but as with anything important or valuable, it found its way back into a templar's hands.

Again, all we need is a name. I'll even be glad to explain why or how that person got to where they were if it is possible for me to do so.

edit to add:  Paryl was one of the ones I knew had their hands on such a weapon for a limited period of time, and it was the same weapon from the above stolen-metal-object plot, but I didn't really consider it to be "their weapon."  This was more than two years ago, however--closer to four or five.

What kind of an outreach program would be cool?  Seems like Talia is able to come up with some good metrics.  Why not run a report of everyone in game that has been playing for more than a couple of years and still hasn't gotten anything awesome.  Then send 'em a note asking if they think everything is cool.  You can send my note last.  Maybe ask them if they're happy with the roles they're getting?  Personally, I don't mind playing Redshirts, but I'd be happier playing a redshirt if the wealth were spread a little better.

"Gotten?"  No.  I don't see why we'd send out this kind of note.  Why?

We put up public role calls for the following "cool roles:"

Allanaki Templars
Allanaki Nobles
Tuluki Templars

We put up public role calls AND these roles can also be attained in-game/IC for the following "cool roles:"

T'zai Byn Sergeant (you can earn your way up)
GMH family members (you can be adopted into the house)
Jaxa Pah family members (you can earn your way in)
Akai Sjir family members (you can earn your way in)
Allanaki militia leadership (we might need a Sergeant or something and haven't had one pop up in-game, but you can always work your way up)
Tuluki militia leadership (see above)
Hell, Tuluki nobility (you can become a noble in-game, how much more "power to the PC" is that?)

We put up public role calls for the following roles we cannot be attained in-game or IC:

Tan Muark tribals
Soh Lanah Kah tribals
Sun Runners tribals

And finally, the following roles are attainable in-game and generally not advertised-for:

GMH military or merchant or agent leadership that is NOT family
Leadership in The Guild (dun dun dun!)

These people aren't "getting" anything; they're earning it by applying for the role we tell them about publicly. A lot of the time, it's their first time in such a role.

We already have a system where we e-mail people that haven't logged into the game in a while and we let them know what's new.  That's the only "outreach" that I think we need to do.  If you play this game with any regularity (or hell, even at all), you can get off your own butt and talk to staff about what you want to do with a role; we don't need to reach out to you to tell you to do that.  You can achieve all sorts of roles in-game and frankly you can do quite a bit without even touching any method of communication with staff.  However, you more than likely won't make it to any sort of IC clan leadership role that way.

lots of stuff

The statistics help.  A little transparency can be a good thing.  Still, it sometimes seems that staff will spend five minutes typing me an email explaining why they can't help me with something that would only take seven minutes to install.

At no point have you been told anything like that that I can tell.  All of your requests have been handled promptly, the only one remotely questionable was one in which you never offered feedback that we asked for.  

That brings me to a slight sideline here:

You have an account that is not ten years old, which to those of us on staff implies that you have another account out there somewhere that you've appeared to take great pains to hide, and allows you to make claims about staff interaction with your old account without any way for staff to offer an honest response, apology, or defense.  I'd recommend putting in a request to tell us what that account was--both for curiosity's sake, and for making sure any notes on your old account are properly linked to your new account (and so that we can ban the old account; you aren't allowed to have two).  You're only telling one side of the story here for the most part, and that is disingenuous, and makes anything you've posted here in general seem a little suspicious.

The rules prevent you even from playing with your friends.

This is incorrect.  We don't care if people play with their friends.  We do care if they play with them in an unrealistic fashion or an exploitative fashion.

I think it's better to admit that a lot of people powergame and that the deck is not stacked evenly.  If that's the case, better to be honest about it.

Now that you've had your moment to reply, I'd like to point out a few other things.  If you have designed your play so that you play roles that require no staff interaction, it stands to reason that those roles require no staff support.  You have dug this hole for yourself, and it is no surprise that you have gotten no staff support.  If you don't communicate with us, we aren't going to bend over backwards for you.  Just like Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't go door to door asking if people have a problem with alcohol, Armageddon's Staff is not going to waste staff resources on players that won't bother to ask us for help, feedback, or provide truthful details about their account history.

Back to your first points from the OP.

Whenever you have a wide divide between the haves and the have-nots in a social situation, the discrepancy invariably becomes conspicuous to the have-nots that the situation is not egalitarian, particularly where there is a (real or perceived) barrier to upward mobility.  

I would say that yes, there is a perceived barrier to upward mobility.

It is your perception.

What I propose is an admission that the situation lacks a consistent judiciousness,

Admitting this implies that it is true.  It is not.  You have not proven your case.  I reject that premise based on what you've provided here.

as well as an outreach program to people who've been playing for a couple of years to make sure that they feel that they've had an adequate chance at stardom.

You never defined "stardom."  I'll have to make assumptions, then.

On the one hand, you want stardom; on the other, you say you've consistently played roles that require no staff interaction.  Even with that said, I've run into several PCs that I considered "stars" that were not leaders (just Regulars in Kurac, or Privates in the militia, or Apprentice bards).  I considered them stars because they roleplayed well and brought a lot to the game.  You may have your own definition of stardom, but I'm not sure what it is.

I'm going to emphasize some points in your next quote and correct something for you there at the end.

That being said, it could also be the case that there is systemic bias against opportunities for my success, and that the merest boost to my own opportunities might rectify the situation and provide boundless benefits for others.  We I won't know until we I try.  

Bluntly:  go app for a templar or a noble or a GMH family member or a T'zai Byn Sergeant or anything when staff open up a call for it.  You'll have to do better than "help me, boost my opportunities;" you'll have to convince us you want to do one of these roles.    That IS your opportunity:  express your desires through communication.

No, that isn't a guarantee that you'll get the role.  Even you said a boost to your opportunities, not a handout of a sponsored role.  It wouldn't hurt for you to reveal your old account information to us as well, and maybe you have some bad notes or horrible notes or some kind of fracas with staff that you do not feel comfortable sharing.  I've seen some pretty crappy notes before, and I've also seen those people turn around.  We can offer you advice on how to improve your standing with us.  It's important to point out one of the reasons suspicion exists:  you may well have been banned (and for good reason--and you can even appeal THAT, if you'd like to). Until you can prove otherwise, that is always going to linger as a suspicion, and that is going to affect our perception of you.

There is a canon of established players that the staff already knows they can trust and rely upon.  Reaching out to new players might require "unnecessary" effort.

Yes, but even we on staff select new players for stuff when they apply, provided they can handle it.

Earning the trust of veteran players who have been stung plenty of times will take years of conciliations.  

This again makes me think you've been stung plenty of times and you're the one feeling that we need to apologize for something we've done, but you won't tell us what it is and won't tell us who you are.  (By "us" I mean staff.  These other people reading the forum?  They don't need to know what your account is, that's a breach of privacy.  Go ahead and toss in a request, let us review it all.)

Hope that helps--it isn't what you asked for exactly, but it is honest at least.

[Tisiphone]

...which leads me to asking you what this Sergeant or Lieutenant's name was.  

Go ahead, post it.  It has been more than a year, and it's okay to post basic things like that, at least, after a year.

Paryl. I'm fairly certain he's remembering when Samos gave a bronze, not steel, sword to Lieutenant Paryl.

To be fair, it wasn't for keeps. If I remember rightly, it was given to him for combat RPTs, with Samos dabbling in the idea of letting him hold onto it at other times. I don't know for certain if Samos ever did give Paryl the sword on a more lasting lease (but still, definitely a lease, and definitely for sensible IC reasons that I can't disclose) because the templar I was playing at the time died.

[Delirium]

Tis beat me to it. Paryl was quite the storied character, and did a lot of unusual things, but he also lived in a rather unusual time of the game.

The character had been around for quite a while at that point, and had climbed his way up from the bottom. Used to be, he was just a private with a fetish for funny hats.

[Nyr]

Yep, that's who I was figuring, too, but I was not in the South at the time.

Paryl came up from the bottom, as indicated by other players here.  This stuff was not granted to him as a handout, it was by dint of hard work.  Any stats were not set by staff (and truthfully, weren't that impressive--though it doesn't detract from a truly engaging PC, when you get right down to it).  Skills were also attained by hard work rather than being set by staff in this case.

edit to add:  and that would've been between 2005-2008, coming on the tail end of the same plot I mentioned with regards to a stolen metal object (the same weapon).  He was one of the ones that was able to flaunt it, IIRC.

second edit to add:  I edited that long post I made to include the info about Paryl.

[Gimfalisette]

Paryl actually did possess a steel shield ("possess" in the sense of the templarate let him keep it after he acquired it during an RPT), but, he never used it. (And my PC was one of the very few to even know he had it--because Paryl knew how dangerous it was to have.) Samos did think about letting him use, or may have actually let him use, a bronze sword during another RPT or two.

There was nothing non-mundane about Paryl, though. He didn't even have great stats...his mate was stronger than he was She was also able to beat him in combat, eventually.

That PC and others of the time were just great examples of surviving and doing a good job, which eventually turns you into a badass mo-fo. Seriously, best role I ever had, and it was all earned in game.

[Kismetic]

Reading this thread makes me want to work even harder to be badass, and smash antagonize redshirts into the dust.  Thanks, jriley!

[EldritchOrigins]

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

[Kismetic]

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

Arm has a pretty high turnover rate for characters.

[Ktavialt]

To Nyr:

You really put a lot of time and effort in responding to jriley.  More than I would.  Remember, you can't reason somebody out of something that they didn't reason themselves into to begin with.

[Kalai]

To Nyr:

You really put a lot of time and effort in responding to jriley.  More than I would.  Remember, you can't reason somebody out of something that they didn't reason themselves into to begin with.

I've been reasoned out of plenty of things that I started thinking for other reasons.

[Saellyn]

I'm just going to say that it's not hard to earn a job you want. Technically I could say I had earned a job that I was never given, but you know what? I didn't mind, because I was doing something to help move something along, and I worked pretty damn hard - for days at a time - to see it come up. Right now, I'm working damn hard and doing good stuff, and I think I'm being noticed espite my lack of reports, and I don't feel like a Red Shirt. Your opportunities are what you make of them. I haven't always tried my best, but when I want something I do very much set my mind to it, and I try damn hard to get it done in a way that suits me best.

So, if you're having trouble getting noticed by staff, I don't know... join a clan and do stuff? Eventually -somebodies- report will probably include you, and ten staff can go "Oh hey let's peek at this guy and maybe see what he's up to since he's being a jackass and not telling us" (yes I know you all thing of me like this ^^ I swear I report when it -really- matters).

[Bogre]

...which leads me to asking you what this Sergeant or Lieutenant's name was.  

Go ahead, post it.  It has been more than a year, and it's okay to post basic things like that, at least, after a year.

Paryl. I'm fairly certain he's remembering when Samos gave a bronze, not steel, sword to Lieutenant Paryl.

To be fair, it wasn't for keeps. If I remember rightly, it was given to him for combat RPTs, with Samos dabbling in the idea of letting him hold onto it at other times. I don't know for certain if Samos ever did give Paryl the sword on a more lasting lease (but still, definitely a lease, and definitely for sensible IC reasons that I can't disclose) because the templar I was playing at the time died.

What most people are forgetting is that Paryl had a steel shield, too. The bronze sword, which is a much storied weapon in and of itself, was mainly carried by Samos. (after having been in a lot of other characters hands too).

Paryl was completely from the ground up- he lasted around 2 or 3 years if I recall correctly...in fact he actually could have been a CAPTAIN but the PC templar decided to not promote him.

[Gimfalisette]

Bogre, I said that hours and hours ago...were you idling again 

[EldritchOrigins]

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

Arm has a pretty high turnover rate for characters.

I'm not suggesting more people die.  When I say "red shirts" I mean an average type of person, not the exceptional Tom Cruise type movie character (extreme, but it gets the point across).

As for turnover rates, (most) everyone dies at some point, even if they store, chances are they aren't immortal.

[Delirium]

Bogre, I said that hours and hours ago...were you idling again 

[Rhyden]

I remember watching that willowy, long-limbed recruit spar one time with my first templar and thinking to myself he wouldn't get too far (like most other recruits at the time).

Boy I'm glad I was wrong.

[Dan]

Paryl actually did possess a steel shield ("possess" in the sense of the templarate let him keep it after he acquired it during an RPT), but, he never used it. (And my PC was one of the very few to even know he had it--because Paryl knew how dangerous it was to have.) Samos did think about letting him use, or may have actually let him use, a bronze sword during another RPT or two.

There was nothing non-mundane about Paryl, though. He didn't even have great stats...his mate was stronger than he was She was also able to beat him in combat, eventually.

That PC and others of the time were just great examples of surviving and doing a good job, which eventually turns you into a badass mo-fo. Seriously, best role I ever had, and it was all earned in game.

On the flip side of this, I think it really sucks when these impressive objects with potentially huge stories behind them get lost in the abyss when a character stores, "retires", or falls into the Sea of Silt. It would be cool if certain such items were cataloged and kept track of by Staff. Even if only a few of them made such a list.

For example (either over a year old or made up): Gold Scepters wielded by Lirathans during Kryl invasions, bronze swords, steel shields, daggers found in chests on the other side of the Sea of Silt during major RPTs, diamond-studded silver stuff, little magic talking heads, daggers that suck out souls... that kind of stuff, ya know?

Why not let a few of these lost treasures float back out into the playerbase, causing envy and reasons for so and so to go after the guy on top aside from bragging rights? If you get your hands on something desirable, either get rid of it quickly or be tough enough to keep it from other people that want it. Right?

[Erythil]

I second the desire for seeing a few more objects of power (not world shattering stuff, but like, say, a bronze-headed spear) leak out into the game world.  Easy way to create an intriguing plot, and since this sort of stuff inevitably ends up in the hands of the powers-that-be, easy to have NPCs leverage them back out of existence if they prove troublesome.

[jriley]

The only other things I'm kind of picking up on are...you're not getting enough attaboys or enough Staff interaction via NPCs or whatever...which kind of strike me as petty concerns.

On the contrary, I'm doing fine.  This thread is not about me.  It is about redshirts.  Although I play a disproportionate amount of redshirts, I by no means am the sole redshirt in this game and cannot represent their opinions.  However it was a much decried post by you on another thread that was the real genesis of the entire posting.  Both you and I seem to emphasize self-reliance as an operational component of having a good experience with this MUD, while official staff position seems to have become that regular player-staff communication is encouraged. 

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

Agreed.  I think there is a difference between playing a red shirt and being treated as a player like a red shirt. 

Seriously, all you have to do is:

1) Stay alive
2) Be able to choose an organization and stick with it
3) Not be an elf

If you feel like the staff is passing you over for other reasons...frankly, the best clan to prove you have leadership skillz is the Byn. High leadership turnover, a preference for IC-hired clan leaders when possible, lax induction and promotion requirements,  and fucking easy to stay alive.

Oh no, I agree.  My last character was in the Bynn.  It's hard for me to imagine characters outside of the Byn.  In fact, I pretty much oscillate between Bynn characters and desert elves, with the occasional Kadian, clanned criminal or raider thrown in for good measure.  I have to take my hat off to comrade Mansa who has given up his karma, according to legend, long ago to focus on "mundane" characters.  My experiences playing gemmed, ungemmed and half-giants were not overwhelmingly positive. 

I guess I don't get this thread. Jriley, at first from your OP I thought you were talking about being passed over as a player, but now it seems like you're saying your PCs aren't getting the attention you would like from staff, which also definitely seems like a problem that is easily solved by communication with staff.

I agree staff should always be pointing out good things players are doing when they notice, and they often do this, but it's probably easier for them to notice if you're in regular contact with them through the request tool and doing things that enrich the game.

I don't think most people did through the first pass.  It's a subtle point.  Some of the players are treated like stars and some are treated like Red Shirts.  While I think that this treatment is in some cases suitable, it is in other cases rather conspicuous and detracts from community cohesion.

Forewarning:  I'm not going to patty-cake this and I will be honest based on what you've posted here.  Another warning:  This is a long ass-post.  I've also edited it to include information that was discovered a bit later.

.
.
.

Hope that helps--it isn't what you asked for exactly, but it is honest at least.

That's fine, Nyr.  Both you and I are engaging in discussion because we're interested in each other's points of view, not because there is any antagonism.  I appreciate your directness. 

Some of your criticism is no doubt well-founded.  That being said, don't you think that your points would be better-emphasized if you refrained from questioning the very basis of my claims?  Other players have substantiated Paryl.   

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

Agreed.  It's pretty rare that I play something magical or exotic or sponsored.  Everyone should play one once in a while. 

What most people are forgetting is that Paryl had a steel shield, too. The bronze sword, which is a much storied weapon in and of itself, was mainly carried by Samos. (after having been in a lot of other characters hands too).

Paryl was completely from the ground up- he lasted around 2 or 3 years if I recall correctly...in fact he actually could have been a CAPTAIN but the PC templar decided to not promote him.

Yeah, Paryl was awesome.

At any rate, is anyone opposed to me making a poll?  If no one agrees with me, then let us change the subject?  I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. 

[Synthesis]

Being a "red shirt" and being a PKer...two entirely different things, bro...unless you're referencing some other post I've made and since brain-dumped.

[Talia]

It's a subtle point.  Some of the players are treated like stars and some are treated like Red Shirts.  While I think that this treatment is in some cases suitable, it is in other cases rather conspicuous and detracts from community cohesion.

It's good to state your main point un-subtly and clearly. However, what you have stated is your opinion and belief, it's not fact. There are actual facts that would relate to what you're claiming, but they don't support your argument; for example, did you know that over 175 different players have played sponsored roles in Armageddon since 2006? (Gee, that sort of makes it seem like staff really do give a lot of players a chance to play these roles.) Did you know that, on average, each of these players only played 1.9 sponsored roles? (And that sort of seems like not any particular player or set of players is hogging all the roles, either.)

Another fact: Every player of this game is allowed to request and receive their account notes, with a karma review, every six months. And now, karma awards are based on a very detailed and clear set of criteria for staff. We don't have to guess or feel about karma...we can evaluate in an objective and factual manner. (Gosh, that sort of seems like staff really want to make karma fair!)

That being said, don't you think that your points would be better-emphasized if you refrained from questioning the very basis of my claims?

The basis of your claims is all anecdote, mostly vague, and the one situation you did point out as "proof" has been completely refuted by a chorus of players and staff. You are making claims, and we are questioning their basis. That's fair to do in a debate, which is what this is. Your claim is that staff is not fair, and treats some players like Stars and other players like Red Shirts. Your evidence, thus far, is nothing.  

It's pretty rare that I play something magical or exotic or sponsored.  Everyone should play one once in a while.

Hey, you know what, me too. Personally, I don't really enjoy playing magickers. I like mundanes. And I can't play sponsored roles, because I'm on staff. But that doesn't make me more righteous than other players who do enjoy playing magickers, or who can play sponsored roles. In fact, the world of Armageddon needs those roles to be played, too. (Especially sponsored roles. There are many areas of the game which cannot operate without the active filling of sponsored roles.)

Also, you seem to be implying that the vast majority of the playerbase is off playing their magicker or sponsored roles blithely uncaring about the state of the game, while you and the other Red Shirts are patiently slogging along and bearing the whole burden of keeping it all together. But, you actually, factually, don't know how many magickers are being played at any point. Staff can look at this, staff do look at this, and I'm not going to quote any numbers here (because that's IC info), but I will say that the balance looks fine to me. The Producers and Admins keep an eye on balance, many clans have guidelines to help keep things in balance, and I'm pretty sure we're doing OK here.

As to "everyone should play one once in a while," there are 8-karma players all around you who are doing just that. For the most part, the best players of the game enjoy gritty, mundane, shit-kicking roles and play them frequently. They'll also dabble in karma roles or leadership on occasion. I could list a whole bunch of these excellent players who are not playing karma or leadership roles right now, but it's not my place to out them.

If no one agrees with me, then let us change the subject?  I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. 

You can probably blow off a lot of what I've said as "well that's just your opinion, man" because I'm not actually able to quote you specific players or specific guilds or whatever. I don't think I'm going to change your opinion that staff is unfair through the facts that I've quoted, or through the sharing of my observations and experience staffside. It's not just that I don't agree with you, it's that your argument is based on nothing. But you keep making it, and that is frustrating. It's like boxing with a ghost.

[Reiloth]

The only other things I'm kind of picking up on are...you're not getting enough attaboys or enough Staff interaction via NPCs or whatever...which kind of strike me as petty concerns.

On the contrary, I'm doing fine.  This thread is not about me.  It is about redshirts.  Although I play a disproportionate amount of redshirts, I by no means am the sole redshirt in this game and cannot represent their opinions.  However it was a much decried post by you on another thread that was the real genesis of the entire posting.  Both you and I seem to emphasize self-reliance as an operational component of having a good experience with this MUD, while official staff position seems to have become that regular player-staff communication is encouraged.  

It's not a zero-sum game in terms of awesomeness, though.  Armageddon doesn't have to be Star Trek.

Firefly didn't have redshirts.

Agreed.  I think there is a difference between playing a red shirt and being treated as a player like a red shirt.  

Seriously, all you have to do is:

1) Stay alive
2) Be able to choose an organization and stick with it
3) Not be an elf

If you feel like the staff is passing you over for other reasons...frankly, the best clan to prove you have leadership skillz is the Byn. High leadership turnover, a preference for IC-hired clan leaders when possible, lax induction and promotion requirements,  and fucking easy to stay alive.

Oh no, I agree.  My last character was in the Bynn.  It's hard for me to imagine characters outside of the Byn.  In fact, I pretty much oscillate between Bynn characters and desert elves, with the occasional Kadian, clanned criminal or raider thrown in for good measure.  I have to take my hat off to comrade Mansa who has given up his karma, according to legend, long ago to focus on "mundane" characters.  My experiences playing gemmed, ungemmed and half-giants were not overwhelmingly positive.  

I guess I don't get this thread. Jriley, at first from your OP I thought you were talking about being passed over as a player, but now it seems like you're saying your PCs aren't getting the attention you would like from staff, which also definitely seems like a problem that is easily solved by communication with staff.

I agree staff should always be pointing out good things players are doing when they notice, and they often do this, but it's probably easier for them to notice if you're in regular contact with them through the request tool and doing things that enrich the game.

I don't think most people did through the first pass.  It's a subtle point.  Some of the players are treated like stars and some are treated like Red Shirts.  While I think that this treatment is in some cases suitable, it is in other cases rather conspicuous and detracts from community cohesion.

Forewarning:  I'm not going to patty-cake this and I will be honest based on what you've posted here.  Another warning:  This is a long ass-post.  I've also edited it to include information that was discovered a bit later.

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Hope that helps--it isn't what you asked for exactly, but it is honest at least.

That's fine, Nyr.  Both you and I are engaging in discussion because we're interested in each other's points of view, not because there is any antagonism.  I appreciate your directness.  

Some of your criticism is no doubt well-founded.  That being said, don't you think that your points would be better-emphasized if you refrained from questioning the very basis of my claims?  Other players have substantiated Paryl.  

The game needs more "red shirts" to keep things in perspective.  If most player characters are "awesome", then that'd just be the "new" normal.

Agreed.  It's pretty rare that I play something magical or exotic or sponsored.  Everyone should play one once in a while.  

What most people are forgetting is that Paryl had a steel shield, too. The bronze sword, which is a much storied weapon in and of itself, was mainly carried by Samos. (after having been in a lot of other characters hands too).

Paryl was completely from the ground up- he lasted around 2 or 3 years if I recall correctly...in fact he actually could have been a CAPTAIN but the PC templar decided to not promote him.

Yeah, Paryl was awesome.

At any rate, is anyone opposed to me making a poll?  If no one agrees with me, then let us change the subject?  I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong.  

Few things. First -- Your want to change the subject kind of implies you aren't really digging the scrutiny you're getting. You presented an argument, and people have a right to respond to the foundation of this argument. You don't really get the ability to back out, make a poll, and change the subject -- You have the ability to not respond further, but yeah. Sorry man.

Second, Mansa was not the only player to give up his karma during 2006. There was actually a movement of players that decided to 'return to mundane', myself among them. We perceived, at the time, a heavy increase of poorly played, high powered Magickers, and decided to as a whole forego playing Karma roles for the sake of perpetuating the story of Armageddon. As Talia later corroborated, there are many high-karma players around you that love playing truly gritty mundane characters over high-powered karma classes.

Third, your perception of higher treatment and lower treatment of certain players cannot possibly be accurate, as you are not privy to knowledge of every player's account notes, or the variety of treatment between Staff and Player. Players that have good account notes might be more likely to get a sponsored role; it may also be because of their track record in sending character reports, keeping in good communication with Staff in general, and playing characters that react to the game environs appropriately, responsibly, and realistically. Players that have poor account notes may not get a sponsored role; but I guarantee you they won't be black listed. When i've had bad account notes (which I definitely have), it allows me to enter a conversation with Staff as to how I can improve. We usually have a little back and forth, and then move on. The account note stays, but as time goes on (and as Nyr and other Staff have pointed out) the more time there is between you and that note, the less it is considered.

Armageddon is fueled by the mundanes, not by the sorcerers. If Templars didn't have Red Shirts, if the Byn didn't have Runners, and if the Legion did not have Legionnaires, nothing would get done. Red Shirts, honestly, make the world go round.

Your perception of Paryl requires context, which it seems you do not have (though other Players have provided hints to in their responses). Context is everything. What may seem like a hand-picked, doted-on-by-Staff character with super l33t loot and bomb stats may very well just be Pure Luck combined with Working Hard.

I had a character named Ranak, who was a sponsored Sergeant for the Legions back in 2008. I rerolled his stats to Ex/Ex/Ba/Ex. I was very surprised at these stats -- But like every other time i've rolled a character, they were completely random. Ranak served for a long time as a Sergeant, under various Templars. He rocked in combat, mostly because he trained often, went on plenty of patrols, and just generally did as he was supposed to. Later in the year, the next Grey Hunt was announced. Ranak wanted to participate. He worked very hard, snubbing out the competition, and making deals with the best contenders. In the end, he was chosen to become a Hlum Noble. Historically, Ranak was from the Warrens, and joined the Legions to flee a criminal organization. Staff was aware of all of Ranak's history that I wrote, because I kept a lot of bios. It made the story seem that much more visceral; from rags to riches. Ranak won the Grey Hunt because of IC plots and reasons, not because of Staff doting on me. I think Staff was willing to work with me, because I sent in regular reports, made realistic requests (no statues of myself), sent logs when requested, and was generally pleasant to work with.

If the point of your argument is to call attention to a vast disparity between Star Players and Not-Star Players, good luck. I think there is very little evidence in your court. What you need to do is get past your mentality of working separate of the Staff as the only means to enjoy Armageddon. Earlier in the year, I was caught in the same trap, and thankfully, I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck finding it, jriley.

[palomar]

Paryl actually did possess a steel shield ("possess" in the sense of the templarate let him keep it after he acquired it during an RPT), but, he never used it. (And my PC was one of the very few to even know he had it--because Paryl knew how dangerous it was to have.) Samos did think about letting him use, or may have actually let him use, a bronze sword during another RPT or two.

There was nothing non-mundane about Paryl, though. He didn't even have great stats...his mate was stronger than he was She was also able to beat him in combat, eventually.

That PC and others of the time were just great examples of surviving and doing a good job, which eventually turns you into a badass mo-fo. Seriously, best role I ever had, and it was all earned in game.

On the flip side of this, I think it really sucks when these impressive objects with potentially huge stories behind them get lost in the abyss when a character stores, "retires", or falls into the Sea of Silt. It would be cool if certain such items were cataloged and kept track of by Staff. Even if only a few of them made such a list.

For example (either over a year old or made up): Gold Scepters wielded by Lirathans during Kryl invasions, bronze swords, steel shields, daggers found in chests on the other side of the Sea of Silt during major RPTs, diamond-studded silver stuff, little magic talking heads, daggers that suck out souls... that kind of stuff, ya know?

Why not let a few of these lost treasures float back out into the playerbase, causing envy and reasons for so and so to go after the guy on top aside from bragging rights? If you get your hands on something desirable, either get rid of it quickly or be tough enough to keep it from other people that want it. Right?

I'm under the impression that staff already keep track of these things, where possible. Also, I believe chances are slim that such items are brought back into the game if the plot has run its course. Not saying it never happens though. I might be wrong, but I get the feeling staff are more restrictive with these magickal/metal items these days.

[roughneck]

Oh no, I agree.  My last character was in the Bynn.  It's hard for me to imagine characters outside of the Byn.  In fact, I pretty much oscillate between Bynn characters and desert elves, with the occasional Kadian, clanned criminal or raider thrown in for good measure.  I have to take my hat off to comrade Mansa who has given up his karma, according to legend, long ago to focus on "mundane" characters.  My experiences playing gemmed, ungemmed and half-giants were not overwhelmingly positive. 

At any rate, is anyone opposed to me making a poll?  If no one agrees with me, then let us change the subject?  I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. 

You're complaining about not enough treats from staff?  You obviously have karma if you're playing delves and half-giants.  Half-giant, desert elves and magickers are more codedly badass than good stats on other pc's.  In your opening post you were complaining about other characters being more 'awesome' than you.  In terms of abilities, delves are more 'awesome' than most other 10 day characters right out of the gate.  Karma is how staff give you awesome treats without having to waste their time coding you some special dildo or +10 sword of singing or whatever it is you're looking for.

As a side note, there's already too much awesome shit carried around by joe-nobodies in a game world plagued by famine and hardship.  Not that I'm complaining about it, I try to get l337 gear too, when it's appropriate for my pc, but it doesn't make you awesome. And if you recieved your fancy pants from a staff handout, it's the opposite of awesome in my book, although I'll enjoy getting my filthy paws on what they gave you with my pc.

I really only have two pieces of advice if that's what you started this thread looking for.

1) You're only limited by your own ideas and creative thinking: You can get a lot done if you collaborate, rp your plan and process, communicate with staff and have an idea to begin with that is interesting, contributes to the game world and involves other pc's.  Even without staff, you can do some really cool things that people will enjoy and remember.

2) Take the awesomeness away from other poeple:  This is what armageddon is all about to me.  And when you do manage to steal items, out-rp other people, triumph in combat or create a badass scene with a red-shirt mundane, you will actually feel satisfied, because YOU did it.

Nut up.  You're wrong.

[Dan]

Paryl actually did possess a steel shield ("possess" in the sense of the templarate let him keep it after he acquired it during an RPT), but, he never used it. (And my PC was one of the very few to even know he had it--because Paryl knew how dangerous it was to have.) Samos did think about letting him use, or may have actually let him use, a bronze sword during another RPT or two.

There was nothing non-mundane about Paryl, though. He didn't even have great stats...his mate was stronger than he was She was also able to beat him in combat, eventually.

That PC and others of the time were just great examples of surviving and doing a good job, which eventually turns you into a badass mo-fo. Seriously, best role I ever had, and it was all earned in game.

On the flip side of this, I think it really sucks when these impressive objects with potentially huge stories behind them get lost in the abyss when a character stores, "retires", or falls into the Sea of Silt. It would be cool if certain such items were cataloged and kept track of by Staff. Even if only a few of them made such a list.

For example (either over a year old or made up): Gold Scepters wielded by Lirathans during Kryl invasions, bronze swords, steel shields, daggers found in chests on the other side of the Sea of Silt during major RPTs, diamond-studded silver stuff, little magic talking heads, daggers that suck out souls... that kind of stuff, ya know?

Why not let a few of these lost treasures float back out into the playerbase, causing envy and reasons for so and so to go after the guy on top aside from bragging rights? If you get your hands on something desirable, either get rid of it quickly or be tough enough to keep it from other people that want it. Right?

I'm under the impression that staff already keep track of these things, where possible. Also, I believe chances are slim that such items are brought back into the game if the plot has run its course. Not saying it never happens though. I might be wrong, but I get the feeling staff are more restrictive with these magickal/metal items these days.

I would say it is true insofar as plots are now more player driven, with staff assistance coming in where required instead of as plot-pushing flavor. Most of the major over-arching plots were magick based, well, not every time but a lot of the time. It does seem the shift is pushing towards smaller plots, or maybe that is a byproduct of the way plots are going these days. Either way, I think the amount of tracking of these items isn't as thorough as you suspect. Sure, a staffer or two might have all the information on this item or that as it passes through players in their clan, but then the players move on, or the staffer is reassigned and it might fall out of view entirely.

I think re-introducing some of these items might cause players to find a reason to go for them politically, physically, or with major deals involving massive amounts of goods/coins with plenty of threats and pressure all around. It might cause that Jihaen to start tracking down a particular d-elf raider to take back a piece of Tuluki History, bringing in everyone surrounding them both.

I guess there seems to be a general shift towards less conflict with an actual objective these days. Some physical and sustained conflict, political alliances being built with a definite moment where someone can say, "We did it!" just before being double-crossed.

Maybe I am way off here though, and this never happened when these items were more prevalent.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think most people did through the first pass.  It's a subtle point.  Some of the players are treated like stars and some are treated like Red Shirts.  While I think that this treatment is in some cases suitable, it is in other cases rather conspicuous and detracts from community cohesion.

Okay. Well, if that's your position, then I was right about your point the first time.

Honestly, if there is one thing threatening the balance of the game, it isn't how staff treats good, involved players (arguably a large chunk of players considering the large amounts of clan requests [including independents] solved every week). It's how a subset of players believe the staff as a whole are against the players' interest, and believe staff are looking to stamp out players' plots and make things unnecessarily difficult, while avoiding interaction with staff because of those beliefs.

You said you're open to the possibility that you're wrong, and I'm sorry, but it really seems like you are. You're not going to get attention from staff without really asking for it, and communicating with them is the first step.

[Nyr]

I don't think most people did through the first pass.  It's a subtle point.  Some of the players are treated like stars and some are treated like Red Shirts.  While I think that this treatment is in some cases suitable, it is in other cases rather conspicuous and detracts from community cohesion.

It's not a subtle point.  It's an incorrect point.  You're saying something that is your opinion as if it is fact.

Forewarning:  I'm not going to patty-cake this and I will be honest based on what you've posted here.  Another warning:  This is a long ass-post.  I've also edited it to include information that was discovered a bit later.

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Hope that helps--it isn't what you asked for exactly, but it is honest at least.

That's fine, Nyr.  Both you and I are engaging in discussion because we're interested in each other's points of view, not because there is any antagonism.  I appreciate your directness.  

Some of your criticism is no doubt well-founded.  That being said, don't you think that your points would be better-emphasized if you refrained from questioning the very basis of my claims?  Other players have substantiated Paryl.  

No, I don't think so.  The very basis of your claims were wrong.  In a specific instance:  you had the date wrong.  You had the details about the situation wrong.  You had your details about the character wrong.  The only thing you had "right" was that yes, there was a Lieutenant PC that at one point did have metal items.  It was not two years ago, they did not "belong" to him in the strictest sense, he did not have boosted stats, and he did not have boosted skills.  He was the antithesis of everything you were saying he was, and he attained it entirely by playing well and sticking it out through the tough times.

At any rate, is anyone opposed to me making a poll?  If no one agrees with me, then let us change the subject?  I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong.  

I'm opposed to it.  All that you've done here is a hit-and-run bout of philosophical/sociopolitical philosophy interspersed with several subjective claims masquerading as objective points.  When any of your points are refuted specifically (despite their lack of specificity to start with), you want to change the subject.  There's not a possibility that you're wrong--you're completely wrong and have no actual evidence to prove your points, and you've somehow overlooked most of the rules of the game.

from help rules (the rules I believe you've ignored in your posts here and in your "Depressing Death" posts):

2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
   free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
   you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
   only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
   the end of their careers.

So if you die, get over it.  Your PCs are not entitled to live long, prosper, or be stars.

3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
   mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
   killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of.  The sole
   exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
   both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.

So if you get ganked in Luir's for playing while elvish, get over it.  Your PCs are not entitled to not get screwed over.

4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
   your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
   See point 2 above.

This is the basis of your claims, that other PCs got "stuff" that your PCs did not.  It goes off into philosophical/sociopolitical kankshit land from there (no, somehow it's the player--not the PC--that is being rewarded and treated differently!), but it starts out from this point.  Get over it.  Your PCs are not entitled to get anything without work.

6. Despite all of this, there are virtually no limits to what can happen,
   barring the ludicrous. If your character sets up a mercenary company,
   he/she may one day lead an army of loyal soldiers on an assault of one
   of the great city-states. As a magicker your character may one day become
   a fabled elemental being. Burglars may reach levels of affluence beyond
   imagination, and merchants may likewise become so rich as to own their
   own merchant house and dominate the world's economy. The limits are
   truly whatever you can imagine occurring.

So if your imagination is limited or you feel that staff is completely curtailing everything you do (while at the same time you want nothing to do with them and play roles that involve little to no staff interaction), get over it.

7. Only ONE living character per player is allowed at a time.  If you
   attempt to circumvent this rule by making multiple accounts, you will
   be banned for a month after the first occurrence, and banned permanently
   after the second.

You may not be circumventing the multiple characters rule, but you certainly do have two accounts and you are not being cooperative about it.  If you're not going to address the issues you have with staff and adhere to the rules of the game, then get over it.

[Nyr]

I'd recommend re-reading the rules, getting acquainted with a helper, or talking to staff via the request tool.  You have not proven anything, so I'm locking this thread.