Let 'em through

[Chettaman]

I think it would make sense if the people guarding a certain place would allow people wearing a certain item into the gate. Like if you wanted into the byn compound to get free 'food' and water or to just train - all you needed to do was somehow 'acquire' a byn aba and the guards would just let you in.
Or the kadius compound. or the salarr compound. Or the noble's quarter. Or any organization that has a commonly known standard.

[Synthesis]

It would "make sense," but it would be a nightmare in terms of game play.

I mean, you could just shadow someone in, murder them in the clan crafting hall, loot their uniform, wear it, and waltz out like "Fuck yea."

Not to mention all the 'rinthers that would perpetually be on the T'zai Byn meal plan.  Or burglars lootin' around through clan barracks with impunity.

You'd solve one unrealistic problem and create a dozen others in the process.

[Chettaman]

Yes. Exactly.

[lordcooper]

I mean, you could just shadow someone in, murder them in the clan crafting hall, loot their uniform, wear it, and waltz out like "Fuck yea."

In the absence of v/NPCs, what precisely is wrong with that?

Not to mention all the 'rinthers that would perpetually be on the T'zai Byn meal plan.  Or burglars lootin' around through clan barracks with impunity.

Is it so unrealistic that a few would slip through?  You can't honestly expect the gate guards to know every single runner.

[bcw81]

The only problem I have with this is:
What happens when my character wants to dress up in colorful-garb-#28, and in the process decides to take of shit-brown-cloak-#1 and leave it in the barracks? Sure it's part of their uniform, but it's stupid to assume that a character will be wearing the same thing day in, and day out.

Now, if this was implemented ALONG WITH the current method, that would be cool. It would definitely open up some plot options without having to bug the staff to open them for you.

[Nyr]

This would be cool, as well as a lot of coding.  I am pretty sure it is a possibility for Reborn.

[Chettaman]

The only problem I have with this is:
What happens when my character wants to dress up in colorful-garb-#28, and in the process decides to take of shit-brown-cloak-#1 and leave it in the barracks? Sure it's part of their uniform, but it's stupid to assume that a character will be wearing the same thing day in, and day out.

Now, if this was implemented ALONG WITH the current method, that would be cool. It would definitely open up some plot options without having to bug the staff to open them for you.

lol. it's funny that you say it's stupid because I'm in the army and it makes me chuckle. But I get what you mean.

[Saellyn]

I mean, you could just shadow someone in, murder them in the clan crafting hall, loot their uniform, wear it, and waltz out like "Fuck yea."

In the absence of v/NPCs, what precisely is wrong with that?

Not to mention all the 'rinthers that would perpetually be on the T'zai Byn meal plan.  Or burglars lootin' around through clan barracks with impunity.

Is it so unrealistic that a few would slip through?  You can't honestly expect the gate guards to know every single runner.

I'm very, very positive, that there is no clan crafting hall that's just -devoid- of v/NPCs.

[bcw81]

The only problem I have with this is:
What happens when my character wants to dress up in colorful-garb-#28, and in the process decides to take of shit-brown-cloak-#1 and leave it in the barracks? Sure it's part of their uniform, but it's stupid to assume that a character will be wearing the same thing day in, and day out.

Now, if this was implemented ALONG WITH the current method, that would be cool. It would definitely open up some plot options without having to bug the staff to open them for you.

lol. it's funny that you say it's stupid because I'm in the army and it makes me chuckle. But I get what you mean.

Not all clans are military clans though. Sure, as a bynner (which, I admit, was my example) you would be expected to stay in uniform. What about a Salarri crafter going out for tea one day to get a better deal on all those stones?

[RogueGunslinger]

The only problem I have with this is:
What happens when my character wants to dress up in colorful-garb-#28, and in the process decides to take of shit-brown-cloak-#1 and leave it in the barracks? Sure it's part of their uniform, but it's stupid to assume that a character will be wearing the same thing day in, and day out.

Now, if this was implemented ALONG WITH the current method, that would be cool. It would definitely open up some plot options without having to bug the staff to open them for you.

lol. it's funny that you say it's stupid because I'm in the army and it makes me chuckle. But I get what you mean.

Not all clans are military clans though. Sure, as a bynner (which, I admit, was my example) you would be expected to stay in uniform. What about a Salarri crafter going out for tea one day to get a better deal on all those stones?

A patch, or armband, or epaulette doesn't need to be removed.

[John]

I think it would make sense if the people guarding a certain place would allow people wearing a certain item into the gate. Like if you wanted into the byn compound to get free 'food' and water or to just train - all you needed to do was somehow 'acquire' a byn aba and the guards would just let you in.
Or the kadius compound. or the salarr compound. Or the noble's quarter. Or any organization that has a commonly known standard.

This is something that you should give the clan Imms a heads up about so you can discuss how realistic it is to try this, and then to try this with staff support. They might wait for you to don the aba, clan you and then unclan you when you leave and take the aba off.

[valeria]

In the larger clans with a lot of turnover, like the Byn and merchant House clans, this would make sense.  In some of the smaller clans it probably wouldn't.  If I was a gate guard at a noble's manor house, I'd know faces.  Heck, the security guards at my job learned my face after my third day (the first two they stopped me and had to call up to verify with my judge's secretary that I was supposed to be there).

[Sam]

Working in an entry control point (ECP) where some 300 people use atleast three seperate times a day, you get to know a lot of faces.
Those odd balls that you don't know, you stop and ask questions. Oh they have a badge that allows them into the compound? Ok. They can go, but I am watching them.

I worked that ECP for a good six months. I knew damn near all of those 300 people. I also dealt with visitors, we usually had about 50-100 a day. We knew the visitors that frequented the area also. They cleaned the port-a-johns, they cleaned the VIP buildings, they watered the grass. They would switch out every so often as well.

[Derain]

Would make use of the chore of 'gate duty' for some clans and might make it a bit exciting.

[DesertT]

Not a fan of this idea at all.

At many entry control points, there is a challenge and password, or some other means to verify someone's legitimacy other than, "Oh hey, you wear the Wal-Mart vest.  You're good."

Having worked an ECP, we had multiple ways to verify someone's identification.  Not to mention, if you had a 'visitor' or someone that you were unfamiliar with, there would be an escort brought down.

It's too easy now to get into these compounds anyway.

This would only open the door to everyone else and their dog to 'sneak' in, then pay no heed to vNPCs, hide, sneak, palm, steal, or anything of that.  Just get, get, get, leave.

[lordcooper]

I'm sure that's gotta be a fallacy.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm really sick of seeing a new idea suggested only to have the "abuse police" come out and start harping on how someone could use such a feature to break the rules of the game.

If you see someone doing this report them and move on, don't try to prevent it at the very genesis of an idea. Don't live in fear of abusers and let them stifle the creative process one can use to make the game more enjoyable for those who do play properly.

[Synthesis]

I'm really sick of seeing a new idea suggested only to have the "abuse police" come out and start harping on how someone could use such a feature to break the rules of the game.

If you see someone doing this report them and move on, don't try to prevent it at the very genesis of an idea. Don't live in fear of abusers and let them stifle the creative process one can use to make the game more enjoyable for those who do play properly.

The problem is that "breaking the rules of the game" isn't just a 5-yard-penalty-and-repeat-second-down kind of thing.  Oftentimes "breaking the rules of the game" means you totally fuck up entire plot lines, ruin characters that have hundreds or thousands of hours sunk into them, and completely ruin the attitudes of rules-abiding players.

If you don't build some sort of hard-coded anti-griefing system into important points in the game, you're going to end up exponentially multiplying the amount of work staffers have to do to police things and keep everything running smoothly.  Do you really think a staffer wants to skim the logs every time he logs in to see if any non-clanned PCs have been sneaking around the clan compound, then develop a plan of action for it, when it's happening dozens of times per week?  Do they really want to handle the hassle of dealing with twink PKs pulled off by noobs who don a clan cloak and completely ignore the rest of the non-coded world?

It's not just gloom and doom, man.  This sort of shit has real potential for enjoyment-sucking consequences.  And what's the positive contribution?  Realistically, the best people could pull off is maybe snoop around a little bit and get some food from the chow hall.  Virtually anything else you do in a clan compound is going to be pushing the limits of realism with respect to vNPCs.  You can't go rummaging through someone's shit, when everyone in the barracks knows whose shit it is.  You can't murder someone in the barracks or crafting hall and realistically expect to get out alive (no dude, you're not James Bond).  If you want to passively shadow people around and spy on them, you can already do that with existing code. Changing NPC guards to operate by uniform recognition is throwing the door wide open to all kinds of abuse, for practically zero realistic positive payoff.

[Malifaxis]

I'm really sick of seeing a new idea suggested only to have the "abuse police" come out and start harping on how someone could use such a feature to break the rules of the game.

If you see someone doing this report them and move on, don't try to prevent it at the very genesis of an idea. Don't live in fear of abusers and let them stifle the creative process one can use to make the game more enjoyable for those who do play properly.

I've got my strongest diplomacy filters on here.

Hey dude, fuck that, and fuck that method of thought.   

Now that I've said that, here's my arguement:

For every Assfuck Twink Bitch out there that loves to stroll around a compound like "Fuck yea" there are 10 really good players who work VERY hard to make up for the damage done by one ATB on a "good" day.  How do I know this?  I have to deal with this shit regularly.  Not just in my current role, but in many roles in the past.  Just as some leader finishes putting in day 10 of playtime since the inception of PlotA to get things to fruition, some ATB waltzes the fuck in, loots the shit out of lockers and stores, types LOL and spamrides to Allalukuirsynr Outpost in order to sell off tons of shit, some of which may actually matter to the resolution of PlotA.

Well done, well planned, well RP'd theivery?  I'm all for it.  But the simple fact of the matter is this:

Bad Roleplayers who clanreap destroy plots.

Good Roleplayers who clanreap create plots.

The Bad Roleplayers are in it for the thrill.  "LOL, I got 10k, and they ahve 5 assassnins aftr me, but I get new PC in 25 hrs.  LOL"

The Good Roleplayers are in it to advance the PC and create plotlines.  "Shit, I have 10 fucking K in bomb ass Kadian sapphire dildos!  I need to find a place to fence this, and people to hire to guard me as I do it, and then I need to make sure that there's enough disinformation out there to keep the folks sent after me off my trail.  Oh, and I need to bribe the locals, and the templarate, and yadda..."

See the damn difference?  If you can't, could you please remove the Twinkie Colored Glasses you're wearing and wash your damn eyes out?

There's a reason everyone looks at each new addition for a potential for abuse... it's because ATBs are always out there, and always assfucking us.  And we're fucking sick of it.

[Reiloth]

I'm really sick of seeing a new idea suggested only to have the "abuse police" come out and start harping on how someone could use such a feature to break the rules of the game.

If you see someone doing this report them and move on, don't try to prevent it at the very genesis of an idea. Don't live in fear of abusers and let them stifle the creative process one can use to make the game more enjoyable for those who do play properly.

I've got my strongest diplomacy filters on here.

Hey dude, fuck that, and fuck that method of thought.   

Now that I've said that, here's my arguement:

For every Assfuck Twink Bitch out there that loves to stroll around a compound like "Fuck yea" there are 10 really good players who work VERY hard to make up for the damage done by one ATB on a "good" day.  How do I know this?  I have to deal with this shit regularly.  Not just in my current role, but in many roles in the past.  Just as some leader finishes putting in day 10 of playtime since the inception of PlotA to get things to fruition, some ATB waltzes the fuck in, loots the shit out of lockers and stores, types LOL and spamrides to Allalukuirsynr Outpost in order to sell off tons of shit, some of which may actually matter to the resolution of PlotA.

Well done, well planned, well RP'd theivery?  I'm all for it.  But the simple fact of the matter is this:

Bad Roleplayers who clanreap destroy plots.

Good Roleplayers who clanreap create plots.

The Bad Roleplayers are in it for the thrill.  "LOL, I got 10k, and they ahve 5 assassnins aftr me, but I get new PC in 25 hrs.  LOL"

The Good Roleplayers are in it to advance the PC and create plotlines.  "Shit, I have 10 fucking K in bomb ass Kadian sapphire dildos!  I need to find a place to fence this, and people to hire to guard me as I do it, and then I need to make sure that there's enough disinformation out there to keep the folks sent after me off my trail.  Oh, and I need to bribe the locals, and the templarate, and yadda..."

See the damn difference?  If you can't, could you please remove the Twinkie Colored Glasses you're wearing and wash your damn eyes out?

There's a reason everyone looks at each new addition for a potential for abuse... it's because ATBs are always out there, and always assfucking us.  And we're fucking sick of it.

ATB's are always out there and always assfucking us -- Yes -- But i'd like to think they are the minority. If there is a player that you think is playing poorly within the game enviroment, cast 'mon un player complaint plz'. Otherwise, I kinda have to agree with RGS here, Mal. We as a player base are (overall) pretty mature and respectful of both the code and the game environment.

I think if there was a skill like 'disguise' that this was a part of, instead of it being 100% possible from the get go, i'd be very behind it. Such as 'disguise aba' and you don a Byn aba, hopefully gaining temporary 'clan status'. When a member of that clan looks at you, it skill checks against disguise (Though what the opposing skill would be, I don't know. Perception? Passive perception). If they succeed, they see an addendum to your mdesc (This individual looks suspicious, or something along those lines). If the Player isn't paying close attention, well that's on them. If they fail, you look like another Bynner.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not talking about just this feature, I'm talking about every damn one of them. There's a million ways to twink out and grief players in this game, what's one more in the face of neat and interesting code benefits for the rest of us who actually play right.

[Riev]

I admit, I've often been jaded by the fact that, in order to REALLY burgle a good place, you have to let staff know. Because you're burgling an estate, or some other more closely guarded area. Everytime, I thought "Well I could just climb the wall at night, screw them, they'd never see me."

But, its not a courtesy to let staff know. Letting them know isn't a "Oh hey I'm going to break into Samos Rennik's Golden Palace so come and stop me bro.", its a "Hey I'm going to be attempting to steal something from Great Lord Samos, in hopes to gain his favor as a great thief. People around the Estate might or might not notice me."

I mean. Yes. Who the fuck WANTS to tell staff "Hey, I'm doing something my character shouldn't, and informing you puts him at risk" but for the most part, if you're willing to do the crime, you should be willing to accept the time. Plus, for all your karma twinks out there, imagine how much staff would trust you after telling them the entire plot, and rolling with the punches, even if your 20d burglar dies?

[Reiloth]

I admit, I've often been jaded by the fact that, in order to REALLY burgle a good place, you have to let staff know. Because you're burgling an estate, or some other more closely guarded area. Everytime, I thought "Well I could just climb the wall at night, screw them, they'd never see me."

But, its not a courtesy to let staff know. Letting them know isn't a "Oh hey I'm going to break into Samos Rennik's Golden Palace so come and stop me bro.", its a "Hey I'm going to be attempting to steal something from Great Lord Samos, in hopes to gain his favor as a great thief. People around the Estate might or might not notice me."

I mean. Yes. Who the fuck WANTS to tell staff "Hey, I'm doing something my character shouldn't, and informing you puts him at risk" but for the most part, if you're willing to do the crime, you should be willing to accept the time. Plus, for all your karma twinks out there, imagine how much staff would trust you after telling them the entire plot, and rolling with the punches, even if your 20d burglar dies?

I don't think that's the issue here. I, and plenty of other players, gladly and willingly through their Toons into the gaping maw of Potential Doom via Wishes to Staff. I think it'd just be cool for code to handle something like this -- And from Nyr's response, maybe it's something that'll be looked over for the next incarnation of this game.

[hyzhenhok]

I admit, I've often been jaded by the fact that, in order to REALLY burgle a good place, you have to let staff know. Because you're burgling an estate, or some other more closely guarded area. Everytime, I thought "Well I could just climb the wall at night, screw them, they'd never see me."

But, its not a courtesy to let staff know. Letting them know isn't a "Oh hey I'm going to break into Samos Rennik's Golden Palace so come and stop me bro.", its a "Hey I'm going to be attempting to steal something from Great Lord Samos, in hopes to gain his favor as a great thief. People around the Estate might or might not notice me."

I mean. Yes. Who the fuck WANTS to tell staff "Hey, I'm doing something my character shouldn't, and informing you puts him at risk" but for the most part, if you're willing to do the crime, you should be willing to accept the time. Plus, for all your karma twinks out there, imagine how much staff would trust you after telling them the entire plot, and rolling with the punches, even if your 20d burglar dies?

Yeah, it's good advice for those who have a hard time getting noticed. Do something interesting, and wish up about it. Preferably in advance.

[Synthesis]

I'm not talking about just this feature, I'm talking about every damn one of them. There's a million ways to twink out and grief players in this game, what's one more in the face of neat and interesting code benefits for the rest of us who actually play right.

There are lots of ways to do it, but most of them you have to put work into.  Twinks generally don't get retarded with PCs they've spent 10-15 days skilling up, because the payoff for getting retarded at that point isn't worth the investment.  This is one of those anti-griefing choke points:  time invested in lost character > satisfaction from griefing.

Another choke point is karma restrictions.  Most karma-restricted options have the ability to grief right out of the box, so the consideration is: reputation+ability to play awesome characters > satisfaction from griefing.

Filing player complaints isn't a simple fix, because it creates police work for the staff, who otherwise could be doing something useful.

As it stands, you can roleplay this entire scenario out with existing code.  You just have to shadow someone in and out of your target compound.  This obviously is more difficult than it sounds, which is good, because it creates another choke point:  skilling up sneak, hide, sleight-of-hand and/or steal + potential very large amount of time spent waiting for the shadow in and the shadow out > satisfaction from griefing.

If you ignore the potential for both intentional and unintentional poor players, they will shit all over the place like dogs left in the house without a doggie door.  I'm not sure it's a good choice to ask the staff to clean up that shit all the time because you don't like the way the doggie door looks.

[valeria]

Not every statement of 'Idea X could be abused like this' is intended to trash the idea, either.  A lot of times (to me) it's potentially constructive, in that it's something staff could consider when implementing the idea and maybe plan on coding around, or plan on putting some other way of keeping tabs on it in there.  Just because something has the potential to be abused doesn't mean it's not a good idea that won't get coded.

[Nyr]

Just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it will get coded, either.  This is one of those cases.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it will get coded, either.  This is one of those cases.

I just, sorta assume this about every proposed idea, then suddenly, out of nowhere BAM cool thing #7 gets implemented into the game and I'm surprised and happy..  And Synth, my man. You were getting pretty ridiculous there, toward the end.

[Kalai]

I prefer feeling like I can use the code and not be abusive in the process, so if a code idea could easily make things less that way I'd rather someone point out how, and how to fix it.

Here's my idea on how to approach this: Have someone wearing the uniform gain a small bonus on shadowing someone in, and sneaking inside the compound; or have someone not doing so gain more of a penalty.

[X-D]

I think Synth and Mali are right on.

It only takes one person to abuse something to cause an amazing mess for both players and staff.

As to people coming down one "every good idea with the abuse hammer" Really, when I see it, it looks like people pointing the cracks and loopholes out so people can rethink the idea and maybe even close them up. Or in some cases, this being one of them, to go Huh, maybe it was not as good an idea as I first thought.

Myself, abuse aside, I really don't see any reason for such a thing to be put in.

The only reasonable use I could see for it is if there were to be like rentable clan compounds for uncoded clans where you as the clan leader can hire npcs guards etc.

But I think there are plans for things something like this in arm2...or at least I remember it being talked about on the reborn forum when it was open.

[Talia]

I think Synth and Mali are right on.

It only takes one person to abuse something to cause an amazing mess for both players and staff.

Yes, this. I had no idea how much staff time it can take to clean up one of these messes, before I had to deal with some. It's a very poor use of staff time when we have to collectively spend 10-20 hours on a situation of this nature. And, it's emotionally draining--no staffer wants to spend their time policing or cleaning up. We'd really much rather spend our time animating for you, building cool stuff for you, and facilitating your plots. It makes us grumpy to be cops and maids.

I very much endorse the suggestion that if you want to do something of this nature, rather than rely on code, you should communicate with staff. (Preferably by report first, then by wish.) We don't want to stop you from making conflict or pursuing plots. We do want to make sure the world reacts realistically toward you and what you're doing.

[solera]

As it stands, you can roleplay this entire scenario out with existing code.  You just have to shadow someone in and out of your target compound.  This obviously is more difficult than it sounds, which is good, because it creates another choke point:  skilling up sneak, hide, sleight-of-hand and/or steal + potential very large amount of time spent waiting for the shadow in and the shadow out > satisfaction from griefing.

This seems to to give you what you want Chettaman, once you've gone to the trouble to acquire the colours, doesn't it?

[Chettaman]

Darn those bad roleplayers!
but yeah... I already thought of how to do it with the existing code.

But they got a good point. lol. I totally know someone would steal everything just to sell it without a thought of roleplay in mind. Just to get the loot.

[hyzhenhok]

It would be amusing to see the piles of different clan uniforms that people would start stockpiling, though.

As it stands, you could always try wishing up if you are dressed up a particular way and want NPCs to react accordingly. You never know.

[Chettaman]

See... that's why I love you, dood.
Not just because your picture kind of reminds me of Venom.

[Sam]

I think it'd be fine with those clans with a high turn over rate and high amounts of personnel. Like the Byn.

[boog]

Allowing things hitched (that aren't PCs) to you would be swell, too.

[Saellyn]

I think it'd be fine with those clans with a high turn over rate and high amounts of personnel. Like the Byn.

No. I don't need some random guy in a Byn/Kadian/Salarri cloak walking into my compound and backstabbing me in my sleep, then abusing hide/sneak to get out unscathed.

[Sam]

I think you are being overly dramatic.
If it gets abused, get rid of it.
If it doesn't, don't.

In my opinion, this should be doable on the Byn and Kuraci compounds at the least. They have the most people and the highest turn over rate, I think.

[Saellyn]

I think you are being overly dramatic.
If it gets abused, get rid of it.
If it doesn't, don't.

In my opinion, this should be doable on the Byn and Kuraci compounds at the least. They have the most people and the highest turn over rate, I think.

I prefer to be over-dramatic and safe in an instance like this, given my experiences with the game, than take the risk that somebody -isn't- going to abuse this and use it to kill a guy they hate the crap out of, then walk out unscathed.

[jstorrie]

My clan gets its warehouse sacked by asshole newbies (in front of hundreds of VNPCs) every month already. I'm pretty sure that if the clan-flag system was replaced by cloak checks I would have a clan of corpses and no recourse but player complaints within... a week? Five days, tops.

[ianmartin]

The problem is that "breaking the rules of the game" isn't just a 5-yard-penalty-and-repeat-second-down kind of thing.  Oftentimes "breaking the rules of the game" means you totally fuck up entire plot lines, ruin characters that have hundreds or thousands of hours sunk into them, and completely ruin the attitudes of rules-abiding players.

[/quote]

Soooooooo, ALL plots should succeed because thousands of hours were put into them???  Not following that pattern of thought.

Three gith lying in wait along the road to ambush people happens to attack and kill the only two vivaduans in the party who weren't paying attention would screw up plot lines too.

[Cutthroat]

The problem is that "breaking the rules of the game" isn't just a 5-yard-penalty-and-repeat-second-down kind of thing.  Oftentimes "breaking the rules of the game" means you totally fuck up entire plot lines, ruin characters that have hundreds or thousands of hours sunk into them, and completely ruin the attitudes of rules-abiding players.

Soooooooo, ALL plots should succeed because thousands of hours were put into them???  Not following that pattern of thought.

Three gith lying in wait along the road to ambush people happens to attack and kill the only two vivaduans in the party who weren't paying attention would screw up plot lines too.

Not exactly what was said there. More like "plots shouldn't fail because of some player that happened to want to ignore the game world at the time", or in general, break the rules. Players that follow the game's rules can and do expect failure for other reasons.

Since this idea is possible with staff support via reporting intentions in a character report, and staff support ensures nothing ridiculous happens, perhaps it's best left that way.

[Nyr]

The problem is that "breaking the rules of the game" isn't just a 5-yard-penalty-and-repeat-second-down kind of thing.  Oftentimes "breaking the rules of the game" means you totally fuck up entire plot lines, ruin characters that have hundreds or thousands of hours sunk into them, and completely ruin the attitudes of rules-abiding players.

Soooooooo, ALL plots should succeed because thousands of hours were put into them???  Not following that pattern of thought.

Three gith lying in wait along the road to ambush people happens to attack and kill the only two vivaduans in the party who weren't paying attention would screw up plot lines too.

While this is a derail, your comparison is not valid. Players are not gith.  Gith are NPCs.  NPCs don't break the rules, players do--and no, not all players, just the ones that do break the rules.

I'm going to lock this thread.  Please don't bump inactive threads to post derails.