Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[MeTekillot]

Maybe there could be a karma level, and a guild-karma regen level.

Karma level is normal. Like, you get set to eight karma, and upon picking a guild that takes 5+ karma, you get sent back to 3 karma.

But if you get your guild-karma regen level set higher as well, to like four, now matter what guild you choose, your karma won't go below four from the choice. It will still, however, go down from skill-bumps and subguild choice. So, like, you could have karma of eight and guild-karma of five, and when you pick sorceror, your karma only gets bumped down to five.

If, however, you pick a subguild that costs four karma (if that's how it works?) and get a skill bump, it'll take five karma away and you'll be back down to three. Am I making sense with this?

[RogueGunslinger]

I do not believe anybody would skill boost on a HG anyway...not when you have new and interesting subs to choose from.

I know I would not.

If I understand the system correctly, you can spend some karma on the sub, then spend even more karma on skill bumps.

I think it is a good point that these skill bumps benefit low-wisdom characters moreso than others. Perhaps it'd be wise to consider having the skill bumps affected somehow by the PC's wisdom score. If someone prioritizes wisdom just to get a bigger skill bump, well, they're also kind of throwing away the main benefit of high wisdom (by having less learning left to do)... so it'd balance out.

I agree verily with this post, and Bacons.

[Morgenes]

One thing to note here, from Taven's 'recap', is that all options will have a karma cost associated with them for the duration of the char gen process.  So choosing Half-Giant at char-gen will cost you 3 karma, if you have more karma you can do things like choose an elementalist guild, or special sub guild or skill bumps.  If you just have 3 karma, that's it, you can play a Half Giant with a mundane guild and normal subguild and no skill bumps.

At the end of the character generation process, your current karma level will be reduced to the minimum of your maximum level or 3.

This will also enforce rules that are already in place.  If you do the math, you will not be able to choose to create a Mul (7 karma) elementalist (2+ karma), without a Special Application, and that likely will be turned down.

Edited to add:
Also, one clarification to separate to try and avoid confusion, as we had this issue when discussing this.  You have two buckets, your 'karma level' and your 'char gen points'.  Your 'karma level' is as it always has and will be.  Your 'char gen points' is limited to your karma level.  When you are in character generation, you will be spending 'char gen points' on the options you choose.  You never spend anything of your 'karma level'.  If you are an 8 karma player, you will remain so.

[Kol]

You have two buckets, your 'karma level' and your 'char gen points'.  Your 'karma level' is as it always has and will be.  Your 'char gen points' is limited to your karma level.  When you are in character generation, you will be spending 'char gen points' on the options you choose.  You never spend anything of your 'karma level'.  If you are an 8 karma player, you will remain so.

So say I have 5 karma, when this new system comes into play, you'll add another value tag onto my account, Lets call it my 'Gene pool', and 'match' it with my Karma pool.

My Gene pool's maximum level of capacity can never top the five Karma I have in it's sister pool, but will ebb and flow depending on what I choose to play...

So with my 5 Karma, I can play a HG Rukkian/thug, that would take my Gene pool down to 3 because I've only chosen a pre-built guild/sub-guild and a race I have Karma to play.

My HG Ruk dies in a day thanks to some hoity toity Templar who can't catch boulders dying in a game of catch....

Back I go to the Char Gen screen, this time, the options available to me will be up to HG, including Rukkian, viv, yadda yadda....But I can't play another HG Ruk for 2 months. I can however decide I wan't to play a D-Elf warrior with two skill boosts in say, slashing weapons, leaving me on 1 point of Karma left out of my original 5.

By deafault, I CANNOT go below 1 on the Char gen screen, however, is it possible to then spend that 1 point on a sub-guild for my D-elf? Inviting him to leave the gene pool and step into zalanthas with two skill boosts and one of the new sub-guilds?

[drunkendwarf]

Seph's point of challenging high-karma players

I do not, In fact, every time somebody mentions forcing players "out of comfort zone" Or challenging them with roles they don't like, I really have to step back from the GDB because I'm grabbin the flame thrower.

Like me, I do not play Breeds or Muls, Not because I can't do it, because i HATE HATE HATE playing them. I play a mage now and again but overall, I dislike them, I am far more likely to kill off or store a mage in two months or less then anything else.

But you say, Hey, Don't play a Breed or mul if you hate them so much, and of course...I do not.

But now, this coming system will force people to do just that, It will limit choices to people who have earned those choices, it will force people to either play things they do not want, or more likely to simply not play till the karma regens. And honestly, most people will only do that so many times till they simply stop playing altogether.

And in the end, it is a game, you PLAY games for enjoyment. If you do not enjoy something, you will not play...it is that simple. And sure, we all have that choice, but as has been mentioned before, Muds are a dying class of gaming, it is a slow death but every player or staffer lost hastens that end.

I've known of players that play only Half-giants or only desert elves, and some of those players did so for 6, 7, 10 years or more. But it is rare to see anybody complain about that, and in fact, though you or I might think that is boring, They enjoy it and who are we to impose on that? The higher karma classes and races are no different.

(edit)
Not to mention, usually, by the time somebody has 6+ karma, They have played maybe hundreds of the 0-3 karma options...might be a tad bit bored with them and certainly not a challenge, as they almost had to have played them to get to 6+ karma anyway.

+1.

I don't play much as it is. I've been playing this game for 15+ years. I've been playing the same mundane character for nearly 4. I want to go on a high karma streak after this character. If my high karma character dies, I very much see me just not playing at all until I have the karma to make a new one. Rinse, repeat. So you lose a veteran player for several months at a time due to this new system. Eventually, I'll just get frustrated with the wait period and stop playing all together. This is exactly how I see it happening for me. I'm not the only one in this boat.
Please, please consider:
1) Guilds/races don't cost char-gen points
2) QUicker regen of char-gen points
3) Underpants
4) ?

I'm having a hard time coming up with any other suggestions, but as it is I hate this forced wait period and it will, in the end, cause the death of my Armageddon career. Of that I'm nearly certain.

[Zoltan]

You could just try to keep your high karma characters alive. 

Then the "wait" is reduced considerably. What worries me a little is that I'm going to continuously put my chargen points into beefed up mundanes and never get to play a karma guild again. 

I say, let's hope this system gets in place soon and then we can work out the kinks as we go. The basic premise seems good to me.

[Delirium]

Considering my average character lasts 6+ months (I think I'm on #15 in 9 years?), the wait period doesn't concern me, but I do see how it might concern others. For those I would say, try to play more cautiously. I wouldn't see a push toward slightly more cautious play as a bad thing. Longer lived characters develop in ways it's hard to mimic out of chargen.

[Morgenes]

I have posted some examples in the Staff Announcement thread that I think will address some of the questions about how character generation will work.

As to the specifics of this.  We are still in flux discussing the minutiae of how this will work.  On the points we are discussing is tweaking the regeneration rate.

[X-D]

Well, a system I am not really fond of, I dislike more after Morg explained.

I guess I had assumed that some things would remain the same as they are now, Like if you want a desert elf viv right now, you only need viv karma. Which makes sense, I'm trusted to play a viv, I'm trusted to play a desert elf, I'm trusted to play a desert elf viv. But this new system, No, you are not trusted to play a desert elf viv till you are trusted to play a half-giant. OR you can try a special app.  And if you wanted a desert elf viv with a new sub...well, you better be trusted to play a drovian.

[Morgenes]

Well, a system I am not really fond of, I dislike more after Morg explained.

I guess I had assumed that some things would remain the same as they are now, Like if you want a desert elf viv right now, you only need viv karma. Which makes sense, I'm trusted to play a viv, I'm trusted to play a desert elf, I'm trusted to play a desert elf viv. But this new system, No, you are not trusted to play a desert elf viv till you are trusted to play a half-giant. OR you can try a special app.  And if you wanted a desert elf viv with a new sub...well, you better be trusted to play a drovian.

What this does is enforce that playing a Viv DE is a higher responsibility role than just a desert elf or just a vivaduan.  We feel that this is something we'd like to see, and I'm sorry you disagree.

The intricacies of being a desert elf add an extra layer of complexity to magicker roles, hence the requirement, as the race does have advantages that other racial magickers may not have.  We're are trying to build a system that is fair, fairly balancing, and more rewarding for players.

[drunkendwarf]

I usually don't have a hard time keeping characters alive. However, every character is quite vulnerable in the early days played period. And then combine that with the fact that, in many circumstances, high karma characters are actively hunted. And then there's the random bolt of lightning leading to a link dead death, etc etc. "Keep your characters alive longer" is simply not a given that people can do, even veterans. Veterans are better are it, yes. But no one can just "keep their characters alive". There's always an element of death looming around the corner. If there wasn't, I wouldn't play this mud. You just never know what's going to happen.
I'm happy to hear they're considering adjusting the char-gen regen rate. The rest of the changes to the karma system I love.

[Cutthroat]

Well, a system I am not really fond of, I dislike more after Morg explained.

I guess I had assumed that some things would remain the same as they are now, Like if you want a desert elf viv right now, you only need viv karma. Which makes sense, I'm trusted to play a viv, I'm trusted to play a desert elf, I'm trusted to play a desert elf viv. But this new system, No, you are not trusted to play a desert elf viv till you are trusted to play a half-giant. OR you can try a special app.  And if you wanted a desert elf viv with a new sub...well, you better be trusted to play a drovian.

Karma represents trust. "Character generation points" enforce rarity.

To take your example, you are currently trusted to play a desert elf vivaduan with two karma. But currently, there are restrictions on desert elf magickers. Just because you're trusted to play a desert elf viv doesn't mean the open desert elf tribes have a place for your viv.

In this proposed system, you are still trusted to play a viv or a desert elf, with the additional understanding that d-elf magickers are going to be rarer than d-elf mundanes and need more support from staff as well as a more experienced player. In a sense, the game will enforce itself more easily with a change like this.

Your example goes on with adding more power to a character with a new subguild. Well, you should be more trusted if you want to play more powerful characters. That's what a special application represents in the current system, and I personally don't see any problems with making that more hands-free for more trusted players.

[Marauder Moe]

What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?

[Morgenes]

What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?

Those will both be special app only.

[X-D]

Well Morg, Though I might actually agree that playing a delf mage might be a level above either one alone.

I don't when you get past the basics. Let us say that I agree that the first desert elf mage you make, viv/ruk should be 3 karma because it is more. Why is it then that to make a desert elf krathi or whiran will cost 5? You have already proven you can do the delf mage, and for all intents and purposes, there is no difference at this point, you should be able to do it at 4 without special app, and we have not even gotten into the poor half-giants. Who, though I would agree that HG sorc makes no sense at all, You will not be able to do nilazi or elkros without special app and even drovian is full karma.

I am totally missing the "Making it more rewarding" Part as well. From my current point of view it seems LESS rewarding.

Could you maybe explain that part from a staff or staff as player point of view so I can see it?

[Cutthroat]

What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?

I think Adhira mentioned that special applications will give 3 more generation points for players to play with, so technically, someone can still special-app these roles and have 2 more points for a subguild or skill boosts (assuming guilds still cost as much as their karma level by the time the system is finished).

[Marauder Moe]

What happens if someone wants to play a DE sorcerer or an HG nilazi?

Those will both be special app only.

Heh.  Fair enough.

[X-D]

And cutthroat, that all is moot anyway, because you have to ASK to play a desert elf mage anyway. If the tribe does not have opening for a viv you could ask if they have an opening for ruk, If staff says, No room for mages then no delf mages. This is regulated by staff per tribe and all delves must be in tribes.

So the new system will do nothing to enforce anything on that point. Will it ensure that half-giant elkros are rare...Sure, But to be honest, I've not seen a HG elkros in 12 years myself, they are pretty rare already. So also moot.

Because Half-giant mages are HARD to play.

[Morgenes]

Well Morg, Though I might actually agree that playing a delf mage might be a level above either one alone.

I don't when you get past the basics. Let us say that I agree that the first desert elf mage you make, viv/ruk should be 3 karma because it is more. Why is it then that to make a desert elf krathi or whiran will cost 5? You have already proven you can do the delf mage, and for all intents and purposes, there is no difference at this point, you should be able to do it at 4 without special app,

Not all mages are equal.  Just as there is a difference between Stone and Water and Wind and Fire, so there should be a difference when combined with a Desert Elf.  It enforces the power levels that the existing karma levels were trying to enforce, but didn't do so completely.

and we have not even gotten into the poor half-giants. Who, though I would agree that HG sorc makes no sense at all, You will not be able to do nilazi or elkros without special app and even drovian is full karma.

A half-giant magicker should be much rarer than it is today, period.  As a staff, we are making this move to enforce this.  As it stands we usually have to alter the half-giant to even make it playable as a magicker.  By moving it up the 'cost' scale of CGP, this will make these roles even more rare, as they should be.

I am totally missing the "Making it more rewarding" Part as well. From my current point of view it seems LESS rewarding.

Could you maybe explain that part from a staff or staff as player point of view so I can see it?

I can see how the perceived loss of options is a loss of reward from a player perspective.  We are adding in other options (new sub-guilds and skill bumps) to help with the perceived loss, but what we are hoping to get out of this is a better restriction on higher powered roles, and a better sense of cost and weight to those roles.  We hope that this will make it so that if you ever run across a half-giant elementalist of any kind, you will take a step back and think 'holy shit, this is strange'.  It's a question of if you personally think that less magick in the world will be a reward or not.

Either way you look at it though, we are expanding the options in character generation, and standardizing the way that the special application process works, which we hope will provide a net benefit to the players.

[Cutthroat]

And cutthroat, that all is moot anyway, because you have to ASK to play a desert elf mage anyway. If the tribe does not have opening for a viv you could ask if they have an opening for ruk, If staff says, No room for mages then no delf mages. This is regulated by staff per tribe and all delves must be in tribes.

So the new system will do nothing to enforce anything on that point.

I was referring to the fact that there are more people with 2+ karma than people with 3+ karma. So it will reduce the number of people applying for these roles and staff will be able to satisfy a higher percentage of requests, in the long run.

Will it ensure that half-giant elkros are rare...Sure, But to be honest, I've not seen a HG elkros in 12 years myself, they are pretty rare already. So also moot.

Because Half-giant mages are HARD to play.

Now that difficulty (and the potential power involved with any HG out of the box) will be shown by their cost. I don't really see a problem with that, even if no player wants to pick the option for another 12 years.

[X-D]

Huh...wait now, I missed anybody saying anything of standerdizing special app process in all the flak.

Whats that now, Care to explain farther, I mean, I do not currently nor have I ever special apped...But hey, if it is more streamlined, you never know.

What is to change, how is it to be better?

(edit)
Heh, no player will ever pick it. Nobody is going to toss 6 karma for the HG krathi, risk it sucking for them then having to wait 4 months to play a delf krathi.

[Cutthroat]

Huh...wait now, I missed anybody saying anything of standerdizing special app process in all the flak.

Whats that now, Care to explain farther, I mean, I do not currently nor have I ever special apped...But hey, if it is more streamlined, you never know.

What is to change, how is it to be better?

I think Morgenes is referring to the extra three generation points received when you put in a special app.

Currently you can pick a guild up to 3 karma points above your current level while keeping your application in the realm of possible approval.

With the new system you get 3 more generation points to make skill bumps, buy guilds, subguilds, and races. So all staff has to check is, "Does this go over the points the player has left + 3?" rather than figure out if it is balanced or unbalanced arbitrarily.

[Morgenes]

Huh...wait now, I missed anybody saying anything of standerdizing special app process in all the flak.

Whats that now, Care to explain farther, I mean, I do not currently nor have I ever special apped...But hey, if it is more streamlined, you never know.

What is to change, how is it to be better?

Special Apps will grant you 3 CGP to use beyond your max CGP. The existing limits on number of spec apps will remain.

[X-D]

Well, I understood that part, but how is that streamlining the process?

I mean, Alright, it will be well known to everybody that you can't app more then 3 points above your current, but I thought that was already the case?

You know, the sad part about this entire karma deal for me is.

In the past I have been able to not really care about karma and now I feel as I will be forced to care about it somewhat, just to stay on a semi-even footing with other PCs of even basically mundane types.

[Dakota]

This, I think will lead to one of two things. Either a mass-storing of just about every long lived character that exists in the game, or the players of those characters feeling extremely frustrated.

The only super old PC's I know of that have been alive as long as I've been playing arm (for almost a year and a half) are awesome PC's...

Don't store whoever you are and whoever you play. Heh.

I've got a character that's only a couple months away from being 4 real life years old. I can tell you that, after finally digesting exactly what this karma system change was all about, my exact first thought was: "Maybe I should store my character and fire up a high karma one before this goes into effect so I don't lose any points yet." Especially given that I've got a pretty high number of karma points, and I've been playing a mundane guild now for nearly 4 years. I've got a high karma itch that needs some serious scratching and this new system guarantees I won't be able to if I have a high karma character die early on in their life.