Discussion Thread: Karma Changes

[Reiloth]

1: Once the new system is implemented (if suitable RP is done and if it fits) will existing long-lived PC's have the option (at the cost of karma point) be allowed to one of the new extended subguilds (via subguild change or other method)?

2: Does bumping a 'base skill' raise where one starts out @ or raises the overall cap one can achieve?

3: Any general ETA on this?

I doubt #1 will happen, and i'd loathe for it to happen. As with any kind of karma bump or what not, you gotta wait till your next character to see the benefits.

[Fathi]

Yes, I don't like it, It means, unless you do things you do not like at all, you will be stuck somewhere between 2 and 5 karma.

If I don't want to play a mage and never have, well, -2 karma, If I play my PCs hard and fast and take breaks from the game, Oops, another -1. If I find no reason to talk with staff other then maybe required things like PK reports, -2. Never played a leader and or don't want to, another neg. Adding to game is total opinion but if you just play you should get that one automatically.

To play devil's advocate on the mage bit, I think it's completely possible to show an understanding of magick in the game as a mundane character. I like to hope staff wouldn't be absolutely dead-set on only awarding certain karma for magick RP. But this is coming from a player who's only EVER gotten karma from playing mundanes, so that's probably a personal thing.

Overall, I think the new system sounds fabulous and I can't wait to try it out.

If a max-karma player wants to use it to play a psionicist every eight months, IMO let them. Eight months is a LONG time in Armageddon, and I sincerely doubt that someone other than the most casual of players could keep repeated high-level karma PCs alive longer than an eight month period over and over again.

[Adhira]

The intent behind these changes is to provide more flexibility with role choices and give more variety to the options available to players, including meeting the repeated call for a method to start a character with more than just base level skills.  This will mean that those who wish to play the higher level karma guilds will not be able to play them repeatedly, but the downtime between these classes will not be 8 months.  Guild choices will reduce karma down to a 3 point level only. ie An 8 karma player who chooses a sorceror will start their regeneration at 3 points, not 1.  If they aren't very good at the role and die before their 5 month regen time is up they can always special app for those 3 points after 2 months when their karma is back to 5.

Note that it is the spending of points for extended subguilds and skill boosts that will reduce karma to the 1 point level.

[Bacon]

Longevity
Easy enough to understand.

Good communication
As in, if you are playing a sponsored role or a leadership role for an existing clan and are sending in character reports? Does this mean if you are not playing a sponsored role that you can't get points for this?

Ability to roleplay
Easy enough to understand but it doesn't solve the problem if you're a player who just goes unoticed by staff because you don't play many sponsored or leadership roles for the existing clans. Indy players mainly it appears will have trouble with this.

Proven ability with the Magick system
Understood, but that means players who do not like to play magick roles won't be able to get these points so for them these points will be impossible to earn. Wouldn't this make it harder for them to earn the points to use for non-magick karma roles?

Proven understanding of cultural and racial structures
Should be easy enough if you are paid attention to but again, if you aren't playing in a imm ran clan then you may not get noticed which would make it hard to earn these without playing something that you may not want to play.

Contributes to the game
As in, submitting bugs, typos, and ideas for the game? What all is included in this?

Leadership
Again, should be easy enough if you are playing a sponsored role or get into an imm ran clan leader position. Not so good for player clan leaders.


It seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do. My concern is that you'll have players who prefer mundane, player-run indy clans being at a disadvantage when it comes to karma vs. those who prefer magick or staff run clans. It doesn't mean they deserve it any less but won't get it if they don't play things they might not enjoy.

[Delirium]

So this is a vast departure from the current system, as I know several players with karma that have never played a magicker before. I sort of agree, and sort of disagree with this. I think it should still be possible for someone who prefers to play mundanes to have maximum karma, as Karma has always represented Staff Trust. On the other hand, I think it would behoove some of veteran players to step outside their comfort zone and try out a Magicker. Further along this path though -- Some people just aren't good at it (me). Does that limit players like myself, who either have an aversion to playing magickers or just...Aren't good at it...From achieving full karma?

Hm. I as well have a hard time staying interested in psis and mages, I like my characters to get tortured by the lives they lead, not be traumatized out of the box. I also like chopping things up with bone swords. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't give it another shot someday, but, what if I just want to play mundanes all the time?

There are also those who are averse to official clan leader roles due to time constraints or similar, but I like to think that we still add to the game by stirring up plots for others. How broad is the definition of 'leadership' when considering karma? Does it include frequently involving other players in plots, or does it strictly mean heading up a clan?

[Adhira]

Yes, this does mean that not everyone will get 8 karma but the fact is that this is true even now.

8 karma players are not the norm and we do not intend them to be the norm.  What we want to do is open up the special application area a little more to help with this.  If you can get to 5 karma you can play an 8 karma role with a special application.  

[Fredd]

Question. I saw mention in the post about  subguilds for those wishing a path to Magick?

Does this mean something along the lines that someone with 2 karmas points can throw rukkian spells on a warrior?

[X-D]

Keep in mind, I actually stand to benefit from this, as I have at least 6 of the 7 criteria covered:) Well, maybe only 5 depending on the staffer.

But it still seems to me that Arm as an RP mud should be placing most weight on a persons ability to RP. And it really should not matter what they RP or even how long. And it seems rather lame that you very easily could and likely will have AWESOME Roleplayers forever stuck at 1-3 karma, meanwhile lackluster roleplayers can easily hit 6.

Oh, and when should I ask for a review?

[Adhira]

For earning karma there are a few things to point out:

Note that the Leadership karma is for leadership, not clan leadership.  There are many ways to show leadership in game that do not involve being in a formal clan group or in a traditional leadership role.

I'm going to change the title of the category on magick use.  It is possible to get a point in this category without playing a magicker.  There are definite societal norms and stigma that come with playing or playing around a magicker.  Understanding these norms and showing this via roleplay goes a long way to showing staff that you understand the game world, this is what we are looking for with this category.

It is possible to achieve level 8 karma without playing a magicker or being a leader, but it may be harder to show staff the depth of understanding, roleplay and responsbility.

[brytta.leofa]

As in, if you are playing a sponsored role or a leadership role for an existing clan and are sending in character reports? Does this mean if you are not playing a sponsored role that you can't get points for this?

I doubt it.  I once got a positive account note for sending in reports on a non-leadership, non-sponsored^* PC.

[janeshephard]

Ability to roleplay
Easy enough to understand but it doesn't solve the problem if you're a player who just goes unoticed by staff because you don't play many sponsored or leadership roles for the existing clans. Indy players mainly it appears will have trouble with this.

I mostly play indies, and I can tell you this is not the case.

Proven ability with the Magick system
Understood, but that means players who do not like to play magick roles won't be able to get these points so for them these points will be impossible to earn. Wouldn't this make it harder for them to earn the points to use for non-magick karma roles?

I agree here. I'd like to see this amended to, "Proven RP with the magick system." Some sorcerer emotes a cantrip of lighting a flame from his finger? Your commoner should feel scared (usually).

Leadership
Again, should be easy enough if you are playing a sponsored role or get into an imm ran clan leader position. Not so good for player clan leaders.

If amended to, "Leadership, or working well with leaders" it can be corrected. It's just as important that someone in a clan, fit in it realistically, as it is for the leader to be available, and get plots moving.

It seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do.

Come on, that's not fair to staff.

[Dan]

I am excited for this change, it sounds very interesting.

Very refreshing change, in my opinion.  

[Adhira]

Bacon - this is not the case at all.  Please see my previous post.

[Fathi]

I think this will be awesome for off-peak players. I've long considered special apping characters with even just slight boosts to certain skills, but I always felt like special apping for something I could achieve through grind time in the game was kinda silly.

SO COOL.

[Dan]

Also, is there an estimated point in which this will go active? If someone is in-between characters and might want to "beta test" the new system, could we possibly request to do that? Or is it expected to go live before too long at all?

[Desertman]

I like it a lot. All of it.

[Bacon]

It seems as if a bunch of these are geared toward herding players into staff run clans or having to play roles they may not have any interest in playing in order to earn the karma to do some other things they may want to do.

Come on, that's not fair to staff.

I think it's a reasonable conclusion one might come to when reading how those things are layed out. I don't see how that statement was unfair to anyone, I should've probably worded it as a question which is how it was intended more to be.

For earning karma there are a few things to point out:

Note that the Leadership karma is for leadership, not clan leadership.  There are many ways to show leadership in game that do not involve being in a formal clan group or in a traditional leadership role.

I'm going to change the title of the category on magick use.  It is possible to get a point in this category without playing a magicker.  There are definite societal norms and stigma that come with playing or playing around a magicker.  Understanding these norms and showing this via roleplay goes a long way to showing staff that you understand the game world, this is what we are looking for with this category.

It is possible to achieve level 8 karma without playing a magicker or being a leader, but it may be harder to show staff the depth of understanding, roleplay and responsbility.

Okay, that clears some things up. The way it was worded, it is rather unclear in those areas and that's why I was asking. Perhaps break down each of the criteria as to what is included in each?

[RogueGunslinger]

I like the idea. Probably wont ever be affected by this new system. Though I do hope that it brings with it more strict adherence to documentation.

[Adhira]

I think it is important to note that the base reason for karma has not changed.  It is still an indication of the trust that staff has in a player.  What we have done is listed categories that we can go through to judge if we trust the player in regards to those areas.  If staff do not trust you to roleplay accordingly in certain situations, if you are not communicating with staff etc then you will not reach the full karma level that is available.  

You don't need karma to play armageddon, but if you do wish to have karma these are the areas that we are looking at.

[X-D]

Still wanna know when we should ask for review under new system.

[Adhira]

You can ask for a review whenver you wish by submitting a request for account notes.  Please note that it is not necessary to ask for a review, we are not retroactively changing anyones karma level.  If you ask for a review be prepared that it may not go as you wish and could result in a karma drop.

[Cutthroat]

From my experience, this seems to roughly be the way karma was being awarded already, just that different staff considered it differently. Now it's just being applied more systemically. The bigger change here seems to be the ability to get advanced start, and the paying system.

[Sunburned]

I'm curious how much, if any, of this system would be automated.

It sounds high maintenance, which wouldn't bode well for player-staff nag factor.

[Reiloth]

You can ask for a review whenver you wish by submitting a request for account notes.  Please note that it is not necessary to ask for a review, we are not retroactively changing anyones karma level.  If you ask for a review be prepared that it may not go as you wish and could result in a karma drop.

Whoa! Could it also go the way we do wish and get a karma bump, as was the case in the past? That seems a little threatening...

[Adhira]

It could! But I want to be sure that if you're asking you know it can go either way.  There's no take backs!