Music

[spawnloser]

Lots of musical terms in real life require one to read to be able to interpret correctly...like what the notes are being the biggest example that I can think of.  Certain things that are based off of how music is written also influences the verbiage as well...like, if there weren't only 8 notes, there would be no need for keys and registers...how would this all work in a completely illeterate society that isn't able to read to begin with?

[Bestatte]

I've been playing guitar since I was 10 years old, and piano since I was six. I didn't learn to read music til I was 11, and had no problem putting sounds together to create melodies.

One does not have to read music to understand or learn it. One only needs to be capable of remembering the sounds, and in composing, the logistics of a thing called the circle of fifths. The Circle is easier to comprehend if you can read music, but if you have a good ear for music it isn't necessary.

But I wonder, would the Zalanthan music structure even have a circle of fifths? I doubt the music would have developed the same way. Instead of the difference between notes being the... erm, twelfth root of two, or somesuch, you might end up with that middle A, or A4 (I'm rusty on my theory) being a 440 Hz frequency, but the next semitone might not be our classic Ab/B# at ~466.16 Hz, but perhaps something like... 457.89 Hz.

Probably best to assume their music is like ours. Because there's probably some reason our music system developed as it did, and I just don't know about it.

But anyway, back to the starting topic for me... I would think that music would be taught and played in a rather rudimentary way. Instead of a teacher saying "Well, to make a E chord, you would take the root, E, the third, G# and the fifth, B, and play them together!" (That might not be a correct chord, I remain a music dummy) but rather like the way I learned to play bass guitar,  which was by a friend just showing me some songs he knew, and I learned how to play by imitating on the fretboard. I eventually picked up concepts like the fifth and octaves (They were predominant in what I played), even though I didn't call them that at the time, nor did I know what relationship they had to each other, but knew that they worked.

[Malifaxis]

I think one thing we are all forgetting here is:

Music existed in our world way before the dawn of the musical language.  It was kept mainly by those that had the ear for it.  Everyone, except for the very chosen few, can tap out a basic beat, and the beat will sound better or worse dependant on the ears it falls upon.

Also, just because they are illiterate does not mean that they do not have a chosen method of symbology to trade songs with.  Perhaps there is some secret bardic written language (I'm blowing smoke out my butt, if that's actually IC knowledge I'll shoot myself, but I get to choose a champion for it, and I nominate Spawnloser) that no one knows about.

Those bards are pretty shifty folk, if you ask me.  I think they're all treasonous and should be executed.

[spawnloser]

I think I wasn't clear...the thing I was trying to ask is how one would teach or talk about music to someone else.  You can't say, "Yeah, just start with an A chord, then a C sharp chord followed by a G flat...that's the melody she's using!" or "Well, take that same melody and move it down an octave."  The reason being that noone knows what A, C or G are nor can there be an octave not having notes labelled in that fashion.

[Carnage]

http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/music.html

My interpretation, from the music theory part of that document, is that different people have different expressions for saying the same note. To one group it might be the eye of a carru tendon, to the other it could be leg of a piece of bahamet sinew. Likewise, for chords, I'm sure there's some way that bards say them to each other based on these animal parts. 'Play a snout of carru, then an eye of tembo, followed by a toe of kylori...' would probably be a more accurate way of explaining chords to someone else who knew and understand the system.

Musical terms seem to vary from culture to culture in Zalanthas, which is no surprise. I doubt the Tuluki people want to share the same crude names with those bastards in Allanak and so on.

[Barzalene]

Just as a side note here I wondered whether Zalanthan music would be less complicated than those of a more technologically  advanced society. I mean if we compare Gregorian chants to symphonies, one seems more complicated than the other. But this is really a question. Is that a valid theory? Would a more literate society be more likely to have more evolved arts?

[Morninglight]

I'm not sure about a less literate/advanced society having a less evolved music structure.

Celtic bards had to spend the same time as a druid (Celtic priest) - twenty years - to become an ollave, or master-bard. They could become filidh - poets - in a shorter amount of time. The Celts also had complicated and sophisticated laws for nearly everything, and were capable of making elaborate artwork.

Kinda like Tuluk, hehehe.

So within in the music structure shown on the website, there could be some very complicated works out there. Of course, not everyone would enjoy them, but it's more than possible.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Also, don't forget that the 7-note octave that's used predominantly in Western music is very different from the pentatonic scale used in Eastern music.  Middle Eastern music uses quarter tones, instead of half tones, and instead of harmony, uses something else that I don't know the name for.  So Zalanthan music may not even rely on chords at all, as much as melodic patterns.  The heat would also have an effect on the way music sounds, since changes in temperature affect the tuning of an instrument.

Melodies and such would likely be passed along by way of demonstration or listening.  "Ok, you put your fingers here and move them around like this, and that's how you play 'My Kank Peed on a Dwarf.'  Here, listen, this is how it goes..."

[Boggis]

So within in the music structure shown on the website, there could be some very complicated works out there. Of course, not everyone would enjoy them, but it's more than possible.

I wouldn't think though that they'd be as complicated as a literate society however. While ancient bards might have spent 20 years before finally becoming masters of their art and were no doubt excellent musicians the pieces turned out from those periods just don't match the complexity of pieces from later, more literate times, such as symphonies. Folk music doesn't really compare in complexity to classical music. The skill of the individual players might but the music produced does not.

I would think that it would be virtually impossible to teach a group of people to play a symphony unless the music was there written in front of them. Well, it would be possible but the amount of time it would take to teach each person their individual parts so they know them by rote would be incredibly inefficient. Folk music however is simpler to teach and it would be viable to simply demonstrate the piece - the melody pattern is nearly always there throughout the piece although the musician may ad-lib around it with some nice fingerwork to give a more complicated sound. Being Irish I'm pretty familiar with Celtic music and this is certainly the case in much of it in my experience. While this might sound good it's nothing compared to the complex melodies created in classical music, in my opinion, as many instruments complement each other.

As for art - well I don't know anything about art really so I'm only guessing here. I'd imagine that again a more literate society would turn out a higher quality of artwork. For me it's just a matter of society progressing and this progression is reflected in our history by the works of art we have produced. Ancient folk art looks basic enough to me - lots of stylised things, etc. As society progressed with the Greeks and the Romans so did art e.g. statues for example show an understanding of the human form, perspective, etc. With the Dark Ages art seemed to take a step back - I've seen paintings from that time in the Prado museum in Madrid and, to me, they don't display the same understanding of the human form and perspective as before. As the centuries went by and society progressed again so did the artwork produced and we have the great names like Michaelangelo, Velazquez, Da Vinci, etc.

So, I'd agree with Barzalene that a more literate society would be more likely to have more evolved arts if RL history is anything to go by.

[Barzalene]

I have a theory, only a theory on why literacy would effect art. Being able to record the arguments on various schools of art, music dance what have you, and having access to the not only the product (songs, pictures) of an era, but the philosophy and arguments on those times, is going to give an artist far more to work with than simply skill and talent.

[Angela Christine]

I'd imagine that again a more literate society would turn out a higher quality of artwork.

I'm sure someone else would say this, but I don't think "quality" is the best word here.  

A song designed to be played by one person or a quartet will usually be simpler than a song composed for a 20+ piece symphony.  There probably  isn't much use for big bands or music composed for them in Zalanthian societies.  Chamber music maybe, but not symphonies.  You may get the odd musical genius springing up every king's age or so, but it is unlikely that there is the support for a large arrangement.  A musical genius can compose and play a high quality piece alone or with a small group though, so there is no reason to think the music is necessarily low quality.

As for art, complexity and quality are even more difficult to predict.  Modern abstract art may be simpler than primitive cave art, more complex art forms are possible but that doesn't make simple forms obsolete or low quality.  Some complex art forms, like weaving and neadlework, would likely be more popular in Zalanthas than in industrialized societies.  Making a  really nice tapestry by hand is complex, requiring planning and organizational skills as well as artistic talent.  A finely embroidered robe is potentially a very complex, high quality art form that also happens to be useful.  It doesn't have to be useless to be art.

AC

[Malifaxis]

I just thought of something... rare, I know, but I did.

The Way, people.  The Way.

"This is how this works"  *POP* "There, it's in your head, now practice."

They don't need notation, they can just transfer the knowledge.

On top of that, various musicians can easily 'network' their minds in order to create more complex melodies than we could possibly even dream of.

[Rindan]

I just thought of something... rare, I know, but I did.

The Way, people.  The Way.

"This is how this works"  *POP* "There, it's in your head, now practice."

They don't need notation, they can just transfer the knowledge.

On top of that, various musicians can easily 'network' their minds in order to create more complex melodies than we could possibly even dream of.

I don't think the way works where you can just pull a matrix.  Hell, if that is how it I would wonder why the Byn does everything the hard way and makes people train by hand.  A mind bender might be able to have that sort of control and power, but I imagine that your average commoner who struggles to contact his mother probably doesn't.  The way in a non-mind bender I picture as being extremely crude, and certainly not superior to talking.  Talking is the preferred way to communicate, clearly that shows that the way is less the a desirable form of communication.  It is great when you are at a distance or want to speak privately, but for all other thing it is a pain in the ass.  Think of it this way, using the way you can say only a few lines quickly before you pass out.  Now, if simple words are hard to send, imagine how hard it would be to send a truly complex idea?

[Malifaxis]

Like I said, actually, "Here it is, now practice."

Just because you have knowledge, does not mean you know how to use it, but the basic building block would be there.

Say you start playing a song for the person, you way them, and let them feel how your fingers are moving, how hard they are pressing on the strings, how the beat feels.  Just because the person knows the notes etc, does not mean they can play the song... but the feel of the strings, the tension, and everything else would be of GREAT help in learning it.

The reason the Byn doesn't 'matrix' everything is because the reflexes of a warrior, the feel of combat, is not something that you can simply give someone.  You have to learn it the hardway.  Say NinjaManX downloads the secret flying-spin-kick-of-uber-doom to your mind... and you, Mr. FlabbyMerchantDude then tries to do that... well, congradulations, you just pulled about 8 muscles, and maybe broke your ankle from the landing.  But you *will* know the movements, and how they feel, and can at least begin to train to use them.

I hope that this post doesn't come off in too bitchy a tone, I was merely trying to explain and elaborate on my stance.

[Boggis]

I'm sure someone else would say this, but I don't think "quality" is the best word here.AC

True.. I'd been talking about complexity and evolvement and threw in the word quality for some unknown reason. Quality has little to do with complexity and evolvement. Cursed internet cafes with their clocks ticking in the upper corner of the screen making me rush things!

[Rindan]

I understand your stance, but I think you are vastly overestimating how much control a normal person has over the Way.  Code wise, the Way is set up so you struggle to connect, struggle to get a message off, and even the most skilled people have to send information very slowly or pass out.  Code wise, each time you use the way, it has the same coded effect as being punched in the gut.  I think that translates in game to the Way being very stressful to use and being a poor medium of communication.  As I said, people still greatly prefer to talk and only use the Way when there is no other choice.

The way (code wise at least) is not set up to be an elegant form of telepathy that people can gracefully use to convey things that words and showing just can't do.  It is more like trying to stuff your most important and immediate thoughts into someone's head, and in the process feeling like someone is using your brain as a kicking bag.

If you are a mind bender, I could see having great control and being able to express how to pluck the string with the right amount of force.  However, I think the average commoner musician, if they were –really- skilled at using the way might be able to keep playing their instrument while Waying to his partner that he is off key.

[Carnage]

Using the method you're describing, Malifaxis, wouldn't sorcerors just be able to suddenly use the Way to teach people how to use their spells?

Rindan's right. The Way is hard. Unless you're very skilled, you can't just think blonde-hair and open up a link with them. Keeping that link open is straining and sending a brief message is tough. Trying to tell someone more than a few sentences is tough for all but the capable non-benders.

I don't think I quite understand on what you mean by sending someone the idea of a song, though. You can basically just tell them 'Put your finger on the third fret of the sixth string, the second fret of the fifth string, and the third fret of the first string' rather than go through all that trouble. Playing a chord can just as easily be likened to learning how to swing a sword: You're practicing the the reflexes and getting the feeling of what positions your fingers need to move into.

[Malifaxis]

Nevermind then.  Comment retracted.

I guess my experiences with the way have either been very abnormal, or perhaps I'm just lame.  Besides my very first character, I have never had a character who had the slightest bit of difficulty having a long conversation over the way after, say, day five of play.

Go back to discussing music and such.