OOC Information (No this is a different conversation, really)

[Nyr]

If I may put in my short 2 cents, as I am nowhere near able to organize my thoughts into Nyr/LoD style posts:

I get where both staff and players are coming from, but as a player, and having PLAYED in leadership positions, it is sometimes difficult to really 'feel' like these things are possible, whether its because staff are telling us its "not realistic" in a Request Tool Response, or the IC response of their superiors saying "If you do this, you're fucked."

Personally, I would not want to play the Jihaen that goes off and starts war mongering. Why? Because all it takes is that one staff that says "Hey, thats not what Jihaens should be doing" and you lose karma/special apps/brainz. When I played my Jihaen, I was most definitely afraid to come up with things to do, because there was no real "political" backing (Other Templars had been around longer and rockblocked me) and when I -did- come up with ideas, I'd send it in a request, and just hear "Oh, yeah. Virtually, your boss loves that so it already happened."

I don't understand.  You got free conflict with other templar PCs that were around longer and cockblocked your plot, and the other ideas were accepted by your boss so it "already happened."  What did you expect or want instead?  Other templar PCs to stand aside and let the new kid do whatever he wanted to do?  Your boss to hate your ideas? 

because they want to do it a month out of chargen

This seems like an incredibly unrealistic expectation. Based on what you indicated above, it doesn't sound like you had the role very long (at all, or in comparison to existing templars there).  You weren't brought in to shake things up right away or do a bunch of stuff.  You were brought in to fill a need first and foremost.  You should be filling that need first, then taking the time--after settling in, hopefully--to try to move some things the way you want them to go.  Even in real life, no one likes the new guy to come in and change things up or shake them up, and there is likely just as much OOC push behind the IC push to cockblock an idea formed a month out from that PC suddenly showing up.  Nobility, templarate, and GMH family PCs should all take note of that as well.  Don't try and change a bunch of crap as fast as you can right after being approved.  You'll either gain immediate enemies and immediate friends (and these are friends of convenience, only befriending you because you pissed off one of your immediate enemies that is more powerful than you).  If you like that kind of upstart conflict, that's fine, just go in expecting that you're going to face adversity that is going to leave your PC weaker in the end.  Not everyone is lucky.  Not everyone hires the smartest lackeys.  Not everyone is going to succeed, and not everyone is even going to get down the road safely from their apartment to the local bar.

It's a thought on evolution.

Evolution towards what?  You want the ability to make an HRPT for yourself.  You have the ability to make an HRPT for yourself.  If you mean evolving towards player-led, OOC-railroaded plots, I don't know how much more I can make it clear that I hate the idea of that and that I think it has no place in this game.

[Barzalene]

See! While not the answer I wanted it is an answer to the question I'm asking (which is a different question from last year.)

I see why you don't like it. That's fair. I'll ask that you give it a little consideration in spite of your distaste. We'll kick it around. Maybe we'll find something useful in a discussion different than what's initially proposed and actually usable.

[musashi]

As a suggestion for something that might be more useable ...

What about allowing players to app in as pre-existing nemesis without forcing them to be family members?

Not any pre-designed ideas for plots like: Ok you kidnap me at X time and I'll escape at Y time ect ect ... just the ability to have something of a joint background so that you have some conflict built right into the concept right from the get go.

[Barzalene]

I like Musashi's idea.

I just want to clarify- I am not proposing scripts, or at least I'm only proposing scripting to the point of conflict and letting things roll from there. My above example illustrates that poorly. Sorry for the confusion. Entirely my fault.

[Synthesis]

As a suggestion for something that might be more useable ...

What about allowing players to app in as pre-existing nemesis without forcing them to be family members?

Not any pre-designed ideas for plots like: Ok you kidnap me at X time and I'll escape at Y time ect ect ... just the ability to have something of a joint background so that you have some conflict built right into the concept right from the get go.

This might be fine for the two players who are in on the joke, but it can get a little frustrating for those who aren't.  I'm pretty sure I've been a third party to at least one such arrangement (although obviously it was unofficial), and it can get -really- frustrating when your boss won't seal the deal on taking care of his "nemesis," because he's OOCly more interested in keeping the plot going than really killing the guy.

I mean, if I knew you weren't really interested in pulling the trigger at the outset, I would have logged out instead of traipsing through the desert, semi-afk, for 5 hours.  Thanks for wasting my time.  And yes, after that, I was intentionally avoiding you.

[musashi]

I wouldn't want any scripting at all. At all. Even a "at some point in the future you could kidnap me" would be unacceptable from my point of view. I'm not talking about having plot ideas already drafted from the get go.

I'm talking more along the lines of just being able to put out a call for a nemesis role on the GDB, and having something in your joint backgrounds that might look like: Ok my PC hates yours and wants to ruin them because you framed my sister for a murder you committed. Then let things take the course they will from there.

[musashi]

To Synth: I think some players are just like that.

I, for example, am very hesitant to kill other PC's. I just find it more fun to torment them and let them get away.
For other people, racking up a PK count is where it's at.

In the suggestion I made, I would imagine that both types of players could be accommodated. Maybe you want a nemesis wherein the goal is just a race to see who can gank who first. Maybe you want to just make them suffer instead.

But I'm not really strongly tied to the idea as a whole. It's more just the end result of me typing 'salvage thread'.

[Barzalene]

Ok. I guess I don't love that idea after all. Not because I think it's a bad idea, but because it doesn't address the issue of global plots specifically. It addresses the problem of personal plots. But I don't think personal plots are a problem for us. I think we do a great job already with creating conflict and letting others in on it. I think the problem is expanding the conflicts outside our spheres of immediate contact. I don't see that a preplanned nemesis tackles that.

[musashi]

Well the only way that you are going to get a global plot moving is if you app a character, have them survive and thrive to the point where they can move and shake things, and then start moving and shaking things.

The way I see it, the only thing standing in the way is the fact that characters aren't promised a long life wherein they can become a power player on the scene.

You have to earn that.

But it happens. I believe (and sorry if this is stepping on toes or shedding too much IC info) that the last HRPT that happened ... was in fact the result of something players started and pushed for.

[Barzalene]

That's not stepping on my toes at all. That's awesome.

[musashi]

Well there's your answer then, now go dig up Steinal 

[KankWhisperer]

Nyr you can quote posts all day long but the truth is that the "Be the change" Motto of the staff is just bull.

Recently I have seen a plot where a character plants the idea in group A's mind that they need item B. Group A has the authority ICly to get item B as they have had item B before. Group A makes connections to other groups and begins gathering resources for item B. Then the mighty staff comes down and says since certain staff did not pre approve the plot, just cancel everything for some lame reason.

We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

We'll go from there and cancel the plot because we didn't come up with it.

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.

Unless we just don't feel like it and you didn't file the proper paperwork..which sounds like you want OOC pre approving of everything...which sounds like what Barzalene wants anyway?

Be the change..hah.

[maxid]

The plot you're mentioning may have had other reasons for that.  Especially if it's the one I'm thinking of.  There are other concerns, especially for specific sorts of items, than just 'is it literally possible.'  Some items are pretty damn gamebreaking if there are too many of them at once.

[KankWhisperer]

That's a convenient excuse. It makes less sense for the group NOT to have one. I don't see how it is game breaking if they had one within this character's lifetime before and it was certainly -not- game breaking then. Without having heard conversation about it, just reeks of favoritism or fickleness.

[Dresan]

I  don't like Barzalene's idea . The biggest reason is because that begins taking us in MUSH territory, into something they do much better, whcih is scripting scenes. A does this, then B will do this, wait C hadn't done that...well lets just get them to do what we need to, then we'll get D to do that aswell. It is a slippery slope.  I think one of Arm's charm as a mud is that things aren't always scripted at all, random acts, decisions and deaths are all part of the on going story.

Originally i had no opinion on the policy, since i hadn't played since the last HRPT.

However as time passes what i read that policy to be is this:

HRPT and global events take alot of time and effort on our part as Staff. We are currently working on another game and have no time and/or will to do this anymore. We will be leaving the onus on large world changing plots/ grand events on you players from now on, and will help you if we see you putting some effort on it.  There will be no more random spawning of demons. Do not prepare for a zombie apocalypse on our game anymore.

No random events in the world basically creates a static world we are currently experiencing now.


Now this is fine and all but there are two problems.

1. The players too have no time to invest in creating world changing/epic plots.
2. The players that might have time are now more prone to being killed or dying because others are bored.
3. The glass ceiling still makes it a huge time investment on the player side to achieve anything.

In short the players have no time or feel they don't have the tool inorder to make the game less static.

At the end all this thinking is moot since we don't know how far away Arm 2 is from coming out. That said it would be nice if the next  HRPT we experience isn't basically the closing of ARM 1, more so if it is still several years away.

I for one though would welcome some random shit happening now and then. Ah, Zombies~  

[KankWhisperer]

My point is that every time someone wants the staff to do some plots, the staff points to the fact that they base the plots off of your actions.

The only problem there is more exceptions than you can shake a stick at. Of course there will be some but there are still too many "Only If" clauses loaded in "Be the Change".

No matter how well thought out, well planned out, well executed, or how much is just plain makes sense, don't plan on your plot going anywhere.

I accept that is the way it is but please stop throwing it in our faces that we need to be the change if for the unlucky few (or many or one) of us, it is for all intents and purposes impossible.

[Nyr]

KankWhisperer, have you reported any of this to staff in a character report, perhaps, or submitted a player/staff complaint?

[maxid]

I  don't like Barzalene's idea . The biggest reason is because that begins taking us in MUSH territory, into something they do much better, whcih is scripting scenes. A does this, then B will do this, wait C hadn't done that...well lets just get them to do what we need to, then we'll get D to do that aswell. It is a slippery slope.  I think one of Arm's charm as a mud is that things aren't always scripted at all, random acts, decisions and deaths are all part of the on going story.

I MUSH.  A lot.  There is no scripting that even vaguely resembles anything like that, sorry to burst your bubble.  But the allowance for some OOC communication does lend itself to some twisting to make plots work.  This is not the norm in Armageddon (I personally don't see an issue with a little bit of OOC wiggling, to allow a plot to happen.  It's the tradeoff between REALISM OMG and fun.  Plots are fun, sitting around with nothing to do but spamcraft/cast/hunt is not as fun) but that's not what staff wants here, and it's not my sandbox to tell them how to do it, there are options here to make plots, some limited, some not.  Arm has the ability for low level plots all the time (hunting a mek, etc.) with no staff support, MU*s do not, there are pros and cons to each system.  However, if you're going to make an argument, don't make shit up entirely to support your point.

[Bilanthri]

You were brought in to fill a need first and foremost.  You should be filling that need first, then taking the time--after settling in, hopefully--to try to move some things the way you want them to go.  Even in real life, no one likes the new guy to come in and change things up or shake them up, and there is likely just as much OOC push behind the IC push to cockblock an idea formed a month out from that PC suddenly showing up.  Nobility, templarate, and GMH family PCs should all take note of that as well.  Don't try and change a bunch of crap as fast as you can right after being approved.  You'll either gain immediate enemies and immediate friends (and these are friends of convenience, only befriending you because you pissed off one of your immediate enemies that is more powerful than you). 

I've seen this a few times from the viewpoint of a lower ranking clan member and it's enormously annoying. You spend a month becoming familiar with the docs for Clan A, then another few months getting into your nitch and establishing your character's place in the hierarchy, then all of a sudden someone shows up who is codedly above you on the clout scale and starts contradicting documentation because they haven't taken the same time and care to learn it as you have. Best scenario is a flash-in-the-pan leader who is suddenly stored, while some of the worst involve pissing off large sections of the Known because they have no idea what sort of trouble their self-centered actions will cause.

In a RL example, I worked for Hollywood Video when they sold to Movie Gallery. Oh, the horrors. Huge, sweeping policy changes, with no regard for the local shops. Some of the policies actually angered our regular customers (as in people who rented on a daily basis) so much that they stopped coming in all together. About a year later, the company tanked. But, the Movie Gallery corp heads -knew- how to make a business thrive, so they made their decisions, and we had to live with them.

[Barzalene]

Maxid,I agree that we are in no danger of becoming a mush.

In fact I agreed with most of what you said.

But I don't think Dresan was making stuff up, I think he or she was expressing a concern based on his or her perception.

Going back to earlier discussion,if some people are pleased with things exactly as they are now, that's excellent. I just think it would be even better if everyone felt that satisfied.

I don't think I have an answer about how to make everyone happy. But at least I'm tossing things out there. It's maybe a starting place. It's probably not the destination. That's ok, right?

[maxid]

Maybe it was poor phrasing, but MUSHes do not script out events the way he claimed.  Ever.  That's considered metagaming, and tends to get you kicked off the MUSH in question.

Unless he's talking about the new PRP (Player Run Plot) surge on nWoD MU*s, in which one player is given rights to run a few NPCs/etc. for other players.  They might script, but it's a far cry from the PCs themselves scripting to boost their own characters.

[Dresan]

Some Mushes have more code then others, some of the ones i've played had little to almost no code. So you need to go through a scene oocly before you play. Just to give a general idea of what is happening, where things are going, what is allow, what the other would like to see or do.

This might not be like the mushes you've played but there is a level of OOC scripting in those scenes, otherwise you get code

ROLL 100

OOC: PLease think he is beautiful plz.  thx.

That is my experience with them, you may have others, it varies but regardless i want to see Arm Mud continue being random and unpredictable where things suprise you as players and even as staff sometimes. While the world might currently be a little static, the players themselves are still not. Players chatting between themselves on who should die or who should live or trying other OOCly managed plotting isn't something i really want to see, i think it will make things worse not better.

[Barzalene]

Dresan, please know this is absolutely NOT what I'm advocating.

[maxid]

I have literally never seen anything even remotely resembling that, outside of a talker, in like 15 years of MUSHing.

Weird.  Most games have stats, like Arm, and PCs are not allowed to OOCly script scenes to happen one way or another, except through IC interaction, like Arm.

[Nao]

Edit: Err, wrong thread.