OOC Information (No this is a different conversation, really)

[Barzalene]

I was thinking about the change in the way plots work. And how someone recently said that with the way things are there's not enough room for politics.

It's really hard to get a big plot off the ground. I think it's hard when you're an imm with a bunch of imms to coordinate with and the ability to watch everyone and hear every thought and animate the people who pay the people who will eventually do the leg work, and make several characters to move the plot along.

Without that it's just daunting.

This isn't a real suggestion. This is throwing a thought at the wall to see if it splatters pretty.

I'd like to do come ooc coordination.

What I do want:
Hey Bob, I was thinking if I played Rennik and you played a Jihaen templar I could go after some area that belongs to someone and you could react. I could try and make friends and once I have a few, you guys could take it back. I could do something agressive. What would piss you off? Ok, cool, well if I had a lot of friends at that point, you could hire someone to kidnap me and hold me for ransom. What could we do to invest someone else with a stake in that thing/person/place? Cool. After your guys kill my noble you should do this.

What I don't want:
Hey Bob. What if I play a Rennik and you play a Jihaen and we try to start a war? We should start by taking out so and so.


It shouldn't be used to gain an advantage or to a player who isn't privy to the conversation's disadvantage. It should be possible only to try to figure out how to find an arc of conflict. Once conflict is in motion communication should stop.

[Saellyn]

I don't know if I'd want this or not. I guess I don't care xD!

[MeTekillot]

thank you for that extremely constructive response saellyn

[TOOL]

I don't know if I'd want this or not. I guess I don't care xD!

I have no strong feelings one way or the other.  All I know is my gut says maybe.

[lordcooper]

It would benefit the game and piss a lot of people off.

[Thunkkin]

I'd tentatively approve this, if it worked the way family-role applications currently work combined with special applications. In other words, a producer looks it over. You have to be high karma and trusted. You're not allowed to plan out anything other than the beginning of the situation. I'd say planning the kidnapping, in the above scenario, was going too far. Just some good set ups and then let things go as they will.

I've never read the novel, but someone was telling me about a Terry Pratchett book that begins by a new island emerging from the ocean and then everyone is scrambling to get the resources, etc. I sometimes think that just having a new resource spot emerge somewhere would really kick up some dust in a good way. I mean, come on, everyone is just HOPING to have a good enough IC justification to run around doing dangerous shit and starting wars. Well ... what templar wouldn't want to be rewarded for capturing such a prize? What noble wouldn't want to have access to it? What other nefarious forces might want it?

An iron ore deposit is uncovered in the Red Desert. All it takes is changing one room description. Hell, all it takes is inserting one (non-movable) object into the room. Everyone wants it. Everyone has to struggle through mantis. Everyone will kill for it. FUN.

Just my two cents, though I know the staff would look at that idea and see all the work involved that we don't.

[Barzalene]

I think people would have to enter under the understanding that apart from facilitating that conversation, staff would be under no obligation to take an interest.

[Nyr]

I don't think that "it's really hard to get a big plot off of the ground" is a good reason to do this.

What I'd want:  "Hey, Rennik.  I'm in your base, killing your dudes.  Your mother was a Tor.  Do something about it, you Allanaki cur."

What has changed that prevents people from doing what they have always done with regard to plots?

[Barzalene]

What's wrong is the lack of global movement. And while the imms may not feel any sense of loss, I think at least a portion of the playerbase does.

There are people doing very interesting things in game. There are people who are doing an awesome job of making things happen.

But what I haven't seen is the makings of another copper war.

I'd like one.

[Samoa]

What I'd want:  "Hey, Rennik.  I'm in your base, killing your dudes.  Your mother was a Tor.  Do something about it, you Allanaki cur."

Christ, trust a Tuluki to not even be able to spell d00dz correctly.

[Nyr]

Oh, you want another war HRPT.

I don't even have it in me to discuss this again or link to previous opinions. Sorry, good luck, though!

[Barzalene]

Nyr.

I hear that you are frustrated with me. Fair enough. I keep bringing up things that don't interest you, that you don't think are needed.

I confess I'm a little frustrated too. I feel like you think I want you to make an hrpt for me. And I don't. All I want is the ability to make one for myself. It's fine if the staff says: we don't want to play with you anymore. You play alone.

Ok. So, can you let us have the pails and shovels since you don't plan to use the sandbox?

[Jdr]

I once tried starting a skirmish. I got yelled at by NPCs. Of course, that didn't stop me from continuing.

Don't let something silly like (perceived) staff disapproval tell you not to go doing silly things. Though if they NPC-gank you, then you've gone too far.

[Nyr]

Alright, I hereby grant you the ability to make one for yourself. Good luck!

[Celest]

Nyr gave Barzalene copper! EVERYONE GET HIM!

[Intrepid237]

I dislike consent based roleplay. People are itching for confrontation. As long as you get a group of players together ICly then there shouldn't be a problem doing almost whatever you want.

[Old Kank]

What has changed that prevents people from doing what they have always done with regard to plots?

There's no more institutional memory or driving force, there's no external factors, and there's no visible, over-arcing, OOC-benevolent storyline.

A lack of institutional memory is the biggest hurdle from the player perspective, IMO.  A player's ability to drive a plot is largely limited by their character's lifespan, and pushing a big plot is often a life-ending proposition unless you're one of the 4-5 templars or high-powered nobles in the game.

Players are limited by the toys in the sandbox.  Players can't start plots that involve external game factors like the discovery of metal, or foreign armies, or things of that nature.  Sadly, most of the toys in the sandbox have been passed through the playerbase so many times that it's hard to drum up excitement with them.  

Lastly, large, world-changing plots allowed players to create plots in their wake because the large events, almost by definition, involved everyone.  Most player-driven plots are highly secretive, exclusive affairs, and that's counter to what the game needs.  

[Samoa]

Well, okay, so there's two things being discussed here.

Barzalene's original post was that she (and, Barz, correct me if I'm wrong) was asking what people thought about making it kosher to organize conflict-driven plots out of game. Sort of like having players play pseudo-NPCs -- like, "okay, well, you play this, and I'll play this as a sacrificial lamb, and that way by you doing x and y, we can get a number of players involved in a plot that's driven by z," as an answer to the lack of staff-driven conflict. An intention to, pre-character-generation, provide the framework for which to organize a plot (or plots) to involve everyone in new, fun and exciting things.

This got derailed a bit about asking for involvement from staff in plots, which while it is something I support, should perhaps be in its own thread. There's two different conversations going on here, and I don't want to see Barzalene's original point get lost immediately due to other topics.

Just my thoughts for clarity (aside from my previous dudes vs d00dz joke, which I thought was pretty good.)

[Synthesis]

To get a plot moving, I just suicided my 150-day maxed sorcerer somewhere in the Red Desert, along with all his loot, which includes numerous metal weapons and several highly desirable magickal artifacts.

P.S. Don't junk the head, it's very important. *wink*

[Erythil]

To get a plot moving, I just suicided my 150-day maxed sorcerer somewhere in the Red Desert, along with all his loot, which includes numerous metal weapons and several highly desirable magickal artifacts.

P.S. Don't junk the head, it's very important. *wink*

These items were later lost in a server reset.

[Nyr]

Is this a discussion that has to be repeated every 3 months?

Here's the Policy Discussion 2011 thread.  The majority of that thread was just more of the same repeated points from 2010, by the way.

In an offshoot from that thread:

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.  Writing plots these days essentially consists of coming up with a range of scenarios that spring from what they see players doing or moving towards in  game.  It's one good reason to keep staff informed of the lofty goals of your PC, they may not comment on them, they may say, this will be difficult to achieve, but they'l be watching and waiting to put a few things in to move that plot along.  What staff aren't doing is sitting down and saying 'Wouldn't it be cool if zombies came along and took over the rinth, then marched on nak and ate all the Templars'. We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

More stuff about staff and plots from 2011.

This theme is oft-repeated since the policy change.  Repeating it doesn't change these two points:

Staff are allowed to write plots, and they do.  They are however based on what they see going on in game.

and

We aren't going to sit around and make shit up that has no basis in anything, give us something to work with, and we'll go from there.

So,you (the playerbase, not specifically any person in this thread):  go get out there and do the ground work for plots and stop posting threads every 3 months about how we aren't helping you (the playerbase, again) make plots happen.  We are.  Crap, I've got things I'm working on based on what players in the clans I'm over have brought to my attention by reporting in character reports.  You want to go discover enough metal to weigh down a mekillot out in the desert somewhere?  Get to digging--and that is meant both figuratively and literally.  Do some research in-game, then act on what you discover.  The Copper War happened under old policies.  Cool, yes.  New policies now, yes. 

I could understand this coming up regularly right after the new policy, but it has been more than 2 years since it was announced.  It is time to start working with that policy in mind instead of fighting against it or pretending it is not there. 

Take a moment and reread the initial policy as indicated by Adhira there.

Take a moment and go over the thread discussing it at the time.  I just did.  Lots of people were excited about it then because it was a change and it was something new, I'm sure.  There were the usual sticks in the mud that don't like anything (whether it's new, or whether it's just "not what they are used to"), but that's normal.  Anyway, it didn't take too long for people to want it the other way either out of sincere desire or due to the fact that it was something different.  I think that's normal, too, and it'd be difficult to determine which would be more preferred by players as a whole out of a legitimate desire to actually see things the way they were.  Unfortunately, it's a policy, we've made the decision, and we're moving forward from it, not moving back to what was done before.  If the producers change their minds and want to tweak this some more, shelve it, or what have you, you'll know when it happens.

Back to the other part of the discussion.

The beginning of the discussion in this thread regarding setting up conflict OOC with other players in advance of said conflict doesn't seem to have any place in an RPI.  All of the things mentioned in the scenario that the OP would like to see are things that can and do occur in-game.  Here is how it happens (I'll even throw in the things that happen to cockblock plots, entirely done by players):

Hey, so I'm playing a Rennik and this other guy is a Jihaen templar.  I could go after some area that belongs to someone that the templar is close to and the templar could react.  I'd have to find that out first by doing IC stuff (which has its own pitfalls and may turn up other things not looked for). I could try and make friends and once I have a few, his guys could take it back (or kill my PC, or kill my PC underlings, or ignore it entirely as PCs are wont to do). I could do something aggressive. What would piss him off?  I could send out spies to find that out or pay people to find that out.  Ok, cool, well if I had a lot of friends at that point, he could hire someone to kidnap me and hold me for ransom (or kill my PC, or kill my PC underlings, or plant spies in my organization of spy networks, or any number of things up to and including ignoring my PC and my PC's actions).  What could I do to invest someone else with a stake in that thing/person/place? Cool. After your guys kill my noble you should do this. I hope that they do something even cooler, more original, or just involve other players without railroading things into "killing my noble" and me knowing that is going to happen from the start.

This proposal as is would suck most of the fun out of the game; even the Black Moon/flood/rain/omgwtfbbq HRPT from December 2009 had several possible scenarios that could occur based on player action or inaction.  We didn't railroad it as in the above scenario.  That's right--even we on staff had the possibility of being surprised by an HRPT (one heavily influenced by player actions and activity).  If things happened as proposed, I'd never want to do a plot that way and would actively avoid it.  I'd probably stop playing if everything was prearranged by players in advance.  What's the point?  Why log in if it's micromanaged to a script?

I guess that's all I have.

[Riev]

If I may put in my short 2 cents, as I am nowhere near able to organize my thoughts into Nyr/LoD style posts:

I get where both staff and players are coming from, but as a player, and having PLAYED in leadership positions, it is sometimes difficult to really 'feel' like these things are possible, whether its because staff are telling us its "not realistic" in a Request Tool Response, or the IC response of their superiors saying "If you do this, you're fucked."

Personally, I would not want to play the Jihaen that goes off and starts war mongering. Why? Because all it takes is that one staff that says "Hey, thats not what Jihaens should be doing" and you lose karma/special apps/brainz. When I played my Jihaen, I was most definitely afraid to come up with things to do, because there was no real "political" backing (Other Templars had been around longer and rockblocked me) and when I -did- come up with ideas, I'd send it in a request, and just hear "Oh, yeah. Virtually, your boss loves that so it already happened."



TL;DR

In a game that has been evolving for almost 2 decades, there is now sort of a wall. Players feel that "everything has been done before" and when they come up with some really cool idea, because they want to do it a month out of chargen, its often not a 'realistic direction' for their character, regardless of their station or ability. Sure, staff can write plots out to help move things along, but it cannot be random, must pass Highlord's to make sure it wouldn't cause some massive world-shaking event, and must be initially player driven.

For some people, thats awesome. For others, that sucks. What I'm feeling here, is, "If you don't like the way the game is run now, go play another game."

And that hurts.

[HavokBlue]

I bet Nyr is gonna be flooded with reports about people digging in the sand. Similarly, deaths to raptors and gith will triple.

[musashi]

Nyr needs to stop saying shit I agree with. It's making me suspect the really real this time rapture of October might actually be coming.

[Barzalene]

I could understand this coming up regularly right after the new policy, but it has been more than 2 years since it was announced.  It is time to start working with that policy in mind instead of fighting against it or pretending it is not there. 

The thing is, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to work with that policy in mind. And exactly, pretending it's not there doesn't work. So, I'm trying to think of different ways to work that will.

I think the problem is that you are inferring some sort of criticism. There isn't a criticism here. It's a thought on evolution.