The woes of the aging gamer

[DustMight]

Bear with me while I whine a bit as seems to be my tendency on the GDB.   

I've played Armageddon since almost the beginning and in my twenties I spent obsessive and unhealthy hours in from of the CRT.  I guess one of the ways you can tell you've played a particular game a long time is that the technology you use to play the game has changed dramatically over the years, but I digress.

As a middle-aged gamer I have tons of RL stuff I love to do - work and my family obligations topping the charts.  Factor in all the other stuff - running and hiking, playing guitar, drinking beer on my porch - well there just isn't that much time to game nor do I have the patience to sit in front of the computer for endless hours developing plots, hanging out and socializing and all that.

That said - I WANT to play so I end up making endless short-lived characters that go nowhere and ultimately leave me unsatisfied because prime game hours when one can really socialize, I am usually off the computer and the hours I log in - well - might be another week before you see my character again.

Honestly - I want to play a merchant in a clan - would LOVE too, or a Templar, or just a Byn warrior but I can not maintain the commitment the game requires.  This is so frustrating! 

In the end, yeah, I know - not much to do about it.  So if you see a character aimlessly wandering around with a slightly puzzled and depressed look on his face, buy him a Red Sun, will ya?

Thanks!

[Niamh]

All you need is a laptop and wireless internet so that you can mud and drink all the beer you want on your porch.  My my, how far we've come.

[Reiteration]

Oh the days when 800x600 was not a pitiful resolution and when 1280x1024 gave you oodles of extra space.

[brytta.leofa]

That said - I WANT to play so I end up making endless short-lived characters that go nowhere and ultimately leave me unsatisfied because prime game hours when one can really socialize, I am usually off the computer and the hours I log in - well - might be another week before you see my character again.

Honestly - I want to play a merchant in a clan - would LOVE too, or a Templar, or just a Byn warrior but I can not maintain the commitment the game requires.  This is so frustrating!

This, a thousand times.  I still do have fun in Armageddon; it's just not all that I imagine it could be.

[Sokotra]

I agree.  A prime example why many people are forced to play different types of characters... or generally just have different playing styles altogether.  With my time constraints, I end up playing a lot of action-oriented characters (raiders, thugs, wanderers) that may not have much need to form social relationships.  The trick is trying to do this while not looking like a twink that is just out to PK.  So far the only way I've figured out how to do this is to keep "mercy" on and allow most people I end up attacking to live, if possible.  I really don't end up attacking many people to begin with, but the nature of those roles can get you into a lot of conflict.  Really, many times I've gotten attacked and attempted to be killed more than I've attacked others... and they are, much of the time, seeming like they just want to "win" and slay the bad raider guy.  Which can suck sometimes as well...

Maybe a good time to discuss some ideas on how to play non-boring characters when you don't have much time to play?

[Synthesis]

It would be nice if certain things could be automated when your character is offline, but this is stuff that's only going to be in 2.Arm, if at all.

Examples:

If you're in the Byn or another clan with a set schedule, your relevant skills (e.g. the skills you would raise by sparring, doing armor repair, cooking, desert training, etc.) should go up whether you're logging in or not.

Or even if you're not in a clan, it would be nice if you could say, log into a web-based system and set your character's default daily activities that would be performed virtually when you aren't logging in.  So you could set it to early morning-high sun=hunting (northlands), early afternoon-late afternoon=foraging (food-northlands), dusk-dawn=sleeping.  Then, when you log back in after a period of time, you might have a few hides/skins/bones (based on your skill levels) and some relevant food-forage items.  Nothing major, but at least enough to make some 'sid to cover rent, so you don't have to madly spam-hunt every time you log in just to afford a quiet place to mudsex.  Also, your relevant skills (scan/listen/hunt/archery/ride/combat/etc.) would go up incrementally.  If you wanted to be really evil, you could have negative consequences attached (e.g. you roll a natural 1 and a virtual raider virtually raids and takes 100 'sid or whatever).

Speaking of rent:  automated rent payment.

The same things could go for crafters:  you set your default crafting activities, and you'd end up with materials and/or finished goods related to the default, and your skills would go up.

So on and so forth.  I suppose certain skills wouldn't be applicable (steal, pick, backstab, sap), but that's a fairly small limitation, overall.

The idea is mostly to let "maintenance" stuff occur virtually, so that a) your PC doesn't fall behind his peers, skill-wise such that b) when you free up some time for the RPT, you aren't completely skill-less, despite your PC having been around for RL months, and c) you can do more interesting stuff when you log in, instead of spam-foraging salt for the hour you have, just to cover your rent.

Could someone "abuse" it by rolling a PC, setting defaults, not logging in for a year, then coming back to a hardcore badass? I suppose...but...someone being willing to wait 6-12 months just to cause some grief seems pretty far-fetched.

You could handle it more simply by just giving people coins and mild skill bumps across the board without any of the fancy stuff, but the default-activities route seems to be a more elegant solution.

[Kalai]

Try playing a long-lived and/or wandering independent of some variety, and do things with whoever's around at the time. Try not to get into a job where you're relied upon for peak playtimes / ability to make contacts / high amount of time playing, or when the interesting matters only occur then. Merchant in a clan might be more viable than Byn warrior.

[Potaje]

It would be nice if certain things could be automated when your character is offline, but this is stuff that's only going to be in 2.Arm, if at all.

Examples:

If you're in the Byn or another clan with a set schedule, your relevant skills (e.g. the skills you would raise by sparring, doing armor repair, cooking, desert training, etc.) should go up whether you're logging in or not.

Or even if you're not in a clan, it would be nice if you could say, log into a web-based system and set your character's default daily activities that would be performed virtually when you aren't logging in.  So you could set it to early morning-high sun=hunting (northlands), early afternoon-late afternoon=foraging (food-northlands), dusk-dawn=sleeping.  Then, when you log back in after a period of time, you might have a few hides/skins/bones (based on your skill levels) and some relevant food-forage items.  Nothing major, but at least enough to make some 'sid to cover rent, so you don't have to madly spam-hunt every time you log in just to afford a quiet place to mudsex.  Also, your relevant skills (scan/listen/hunt/archery/ride/combat/etc.) would go up incrementally.  If you wanted to be really evil, you could have negative consequences attached (e.g. you roll a natural 1 and a virtual raider virtually raids and takes 100 'sid or whatever).

Speaking of rent:  automated rent payment.

The same things could go for crafters:  you set your default crafting activities, and you'd end up with materials and/or finished goods related to the default, and your skills would go up.

So on and so forth.  I suppose certain skills wouldn't be applicable (steal, pick, backstab, sap), but that's a fairly small limitation, overall.

The idea is mostly to let "maintenance" stuff occur virtually, so that a) your PC doesn't fall behind his peers, skill-wise such that b) when you free up some time for the RPT, you aren't completely skill-less, despite your PC having been around for RL months, and c) you can do more interesting stuff when you log in, instead of spam-foraging salt for the hour you have, just to cover your rent.

Could someone "abuse" it by rolling a PC, setting defaults, not logging in for a year, then coming back to a hardcore badass? I suppose...but...someone being willing to wait 6-12 months just to cause some grief seems pretty far-fetched.

You could handle it more simply by just giving people coins and mild skill bumps across the board without any of the fancy stuff, but the default-activities route seems to be a more elegant solution.

Why??

Far-fetch, no, matter of fact, I know three or for people that would happy do it just to put in your face and "HA, mother fucker". And , yes, people do shit out of spite.

Aside from that, its easy to go off and get lost in RL, or some other game, while knowing that you character is growing.

Really if this is a need and was implemented then it would become the norm and you would see more characters, yet less interaction on a role play level. Soon people would leave the mud all together.

[Synthesis]

It would be nice if certain things could be automated when your character is offline, but this is stuff that's only going to be in 2.Arm, if at all.

Examples:

If you're in the Byn or another clan with a set schedule, your relevant skills (e.g. the skills you would raise by sparring, doing armor repair, cooking, desert training, etc.) should go up whether you're logging in or not.

Or even if you're not in a clan, it would be nice if you could say, log into a web-based system and set your character's default daily activities that would be performed virtually when you aren't logging in.  So you could set it to early morning-high sun=hunting (northlands), early afternoon-late afternoon=foraging (food-northlands), dusk-dawn=sleeping.  Then, when you log back in after a period of time, you might have a few hides/skins/bones (based on your skill levels) and some relevant food-forage items.  Nothing major, but at least enough to make some 'sid to cover rent, so you don't have to madly spam-hunt every time you log in just to afford a quiet place to mudsex.  Also, your relevant skills (scan/listen/hunt/archery/ride/combat/etc.) would go up incrementally.  If you wanted to be really evil, you could have negative consequences attached (e.g. you roll a natural 1 and a virtual raider virtually raids and takes 100 'sid or whatever).

Speaking of rent:  automated rent payment.

The same things could go for crafters:  you set your default crafting activities, and you'd end up with materials and/or finished goods related to the default, and your skills would go up.

So on and so forth.  I suppose certain skills wouldn't be applicable (steal, pick, backstab, sap), but that's a fairly small limitation, overall.

The idea is mostly to let "maintenance" stuff occur virtually, so that a) your PC doesn't fall behind his peers, skill-wise such that b) when you free up some time for the RPT, you aren't completely skill-less, despite your PC having been around for RL months, and c) you can do more interesting stuff when you log in, instead of spam-foraging salt for the hour you have, just to cover your rent.

Could someone "abuse" it by rolling a PC, setting defaults, not logging in for a year, then coming back to a hardcore badass? I suppose...but...someone being willing to wait 6-12 months just to cause some grief seems pretty far-fetched.

You could handle it more simply by just giving people coins and mild skill bumps across the board without any of the fancy stuff, but the default-activities route seems to be a more elegant solution.

Why??

Far-fetch, no, matter of fact, I know three or for people that would happy do it just to put in your face and "HA, mother fucker". And , yes, people do shit out of spite.

Aside from that, its easy to go off and get lost in RL, or some other game, while knowing that you character is growing.

Really if this is a need and was implemented then it would become the norm and you would see more characters, yet less interaction on a role play level. Soon people would leave the mud all together.

[a strange shadow]

I was thinking something similar to Synth's suggestion, but with a caveat; I don't think there should be any item/money gain, and I think that the skill gain should be about 1/8 the rate it could be if you were logged in and actively training everything. That way people who want to spend most of their time socializing can still practice in their off time (when logged out), though if they're logged in 8 hours a day not training, their skills aren't going to be going up much, since they're not logged out. It would balance fairly well I think.

This would also be nice for hard-to-train skills such as backstab. ICly, it'd represent virtual practice and learn-by-observation, and OOCly, it'd encourage longevity and patience.

Edit:

The reason I don't think items/money should accrue while logged out is simple.

If you're never using an apartment, you don't need one; let people who play more often rent it out. If you really need a place to hunker down and/or mudsex there's always tavern back rooms (also; shameless plug for my idea of having multiple inn rooms available for daily/weekly rentals, so you can stash your trade goods)

As for money and items, when logged out, you don't need food or water, so the virtual maintenance balances itself out that way.

[Sokotra]

The benefits of putting time and effort and interaction into the game would still be there.  I think we are just looking for ways to balance things out at least a little bit for those of us that can't sit in the game for hours on end.  One thing that could be done is having PC age affect skills (at least a little) or something.  The counter-balance to this would be the detriments that come with old age.  So no, everyone won't start rolling old geezers just to have higher skills.  In fact, I think there would also need to be something else along the lines of what Synth suggested in order to really balance things out.  Nobody is looking to ruin the game... just make it more playable for a lot of people.

[Potaje]

I was thinking something similar to Synth's suggestion, but with a caveat; I don't think there should be any item/money gain, and I think that the skill gain should be about 1/8 the rate it could be if you were logged in and actively training everything. That way people who want to spend most of their time socializing can still practice in their off time (when logged out), though if they're logged in 8 hours a day not training, their skills aren't going to be going up much, since they're not logged out. It would balance fairly well I think.

This would also be nice for hard-to-train skills such as backstab. ICly, it'd represent virtual practice and learn-by-observation, and OOCly, it'd encourage longevity and patience.

My caveat would be that there was a 45% chance you log into to a mantis head from a training accident, poisoned your self, murdered on the way to the market to get the food to cook or materials to craft. Robbed, beaten, murdered, torn to tiny bits and rapped repeatedly with a gortok jaw during your logged off sessions of Buffer-roo-bonzai.

Then we would be speaking more on a Virtual reality, for which you all are posing.  

[DustMight]

Not being able to put time into the game isn't really about stats, is it?  It isn't for me at least.  What makes Armageddon shine is the PC to PC interaction and when you can't put time in for that...no way to automate that.

[Synthesis]

Not being able to put time into the game isn't really about stats, is it?  It isn't for me at least.  What makes Armageddon shine is the PC to PC interaction and when you can't put time in for that...no way to automate that.

The entire point of automating the banal shit is so you can actually interact with people when you log in, instead of doing banal shit...without having to suffer the consequence of being completely useless at anything that requires coded skill.

As an analogy:  imagine if during your pen-and paper tabletop gaming sessions, your DM made you actually sit there for the required number of game-hours memorizing spells, instead of hand-waving and saying "okay, all the time required for spell mems passed when we weren't playing during the work-week, now you've got your spells."  Nobody would ever play with that DM, because you'd spend the vast majority of your time sitting around doing dumb, repetitive shit.

As far as nightmare scenarios are concerned (Potaje):  let it go, dude.  You're taking some bizarro-extreme example that would never be implemented and using it as your arguing point.  Income could be easily balanced.  Skill-gain could be capped at "journeyman" or whatever.  Saying, "OMFG it will be overpowered," before we even begin discussing caps and limitations is premature and really...pretty annoying.

[brytta.leofa]

Without going so far as to have offline training (like Eve does, btw; I'm not saying it's crazy), you could adjust the skill gain calculations such that the least bit of training, done regularly, was nearly as effective as constant training.

[Nyr]

DustMight, how much time per day would you be both willing and able to put into Armageddon?  Per week?

[EldritchOrigins]

The biggest drawback of multilayer online games is that time is a big advantage to anyone willing to invest it.  Some can afford to put more time into games, and others cannot, this creates a situation where the one group is always going to have more.

In Arm, time equals skills/materials/money, but it is also friends/relationships/exposure with others/etc.  In my time playing, I've noticed many (including myself) don't want to play with others that don't play at least at some regular degree (depending on whatever is expected).  In fact when someone of power or influence doesn't log in regularly, its very easy to get frustrated/angry/upset because they are depended on to some degree.  Those that play more frequently may not consider it worth their own time to play with those that aren't around consistently/regularly.

[Potaje]

 a better argument is that training and crafting are role play opportunities as much as sitting on ones ass in the tavern socializing. Basically whats being suggested is the free ride to twinking, because you abhor the -in game- grind.
I simply disagree, Synthesis, who are you to say give it up, you post your opinions, these are mine, whether you agree with them or not. 

[Titania]

Yeah why I suggested before that you be able to buy higher mundane skills with karma and not just mages and races. Who wants to go through the grind?

It also doesn't make sense for you to be in the 'byn or a martial group and not learn to kick when everyone is kicking or assassins being unable to rescue even after a year of doing so. So I don't know lots of things don't exactly make sense when it comes to skill learningnot just why your character sucks because he doesn't log in.

[Sokotra]

Yeah why I suggested before that you be able to buy higher mundane skills with karma and not just mages and races. Who wants to go through the grind?

Another good idea... maybe a little bit of each of these ideas would bring the proper balance.

a better argument is that training and crafting are role play opportunities as much as sitting on ones ass in the tavern socializing. Basically whats being suggested is the free ride to twinking, because you abhor the -in game- grind.
I simply disagree, Synthesis, who are you to say give it up, you post your opinions, these are mine, whether you agree with them or not.  

Exactly... just the same as different people have different amounts of time to play or different playing styles.  It would be nice if the those that didn't have much time to play were not punished for it.  Nobody is asking for a free ride to twink.. seriously.  They just want to be able to play the game and have fun, just like you.

As a middle-aged gamer I have tons of RL stuff I love to do - work and my family obligations topping the charts.  Factor in all the other stuff - running and hiking, playing guitar, drinking beer on my porch - well there just isn't that much time to game nor do I have the patience to sit in front of the computer for endless hours developing plots, hanging out and socializing and all that.

The bolded part.. that's a lot of it right there.  When you have more important stuff to do, it's hard to want to play as much or the same as you've done in the past - or how others play or are expected to play.  I'm not saying everyone needs to cater to only the needs of the time-challenged, but what do you do?  Balance things out a little or say "go away"?  There are ways to play and RP properly without playing the same as everyone else does... plot-intensive or social-intensive, whatever you want to call it.   The problem is that it's just not very easy and it is not as fun when you get handicapped because you can't do the grind.  Whether it be the social grind or skill grind or anything else.

[Barzalene]

I really like the idea of a middle ground between having to quit or full time jobs to be competitive, and taking away the gains that come through effort.

I think some offline gain at a percentage couple with caps is a nice compromise. (For what it's worth and no one asked me, I play 15-20 hours a week.

[Titania]

Another idea I had was learning by watching.

Sort of like an auto-teach. (small chance but a chance?)

If you are in the room when a master is performing certain actions, surely clever people could pick up on it. Someone makes a chest, you see him a couple times I think that would boost your ability to make chests realistically more than grabbing some wood and trying it a few times.  I could go on and on. You see a ranger finding tracks, just watching where he goes and what he does seems like it'd help you.

But I think it you should have to be less than journeyman or some difference level for it to work like that.


Maybe not all skills, maybe only visible ones?

[Synthesis]

a better argument is that training and crafting are role play opportunities as much as sitting on ones ass in the tavern socializing. Basically whats being suggested is the free ride to twinking, because you abhor the -in game- grind.
I simply disagree, Synthesis, who are you to say give it up, you post your opinions, these are mine, whether you agree with them or not. 

Yeah, they're your opinions, but there's a difference between "having an opinion that people disagree with that has no negative effects on those who disagree with it" and "having an opinion that people disagree with that does have negative effects on those who disagree with it"  (see: gay marriage; pedophilia).

As far as role-playing is concerned:  going back to my analogy...the DM could say that "oh, well, roleplaying out memorizing your spells is roleplaying just as much as going out to firestorm a goblin camp...suck it up."  The question isn't about what is or isn't roleplay:  it's about what is fun roleplay.

Now, you might answer, "Well, sparring and salt-foraging are fun, for me," and that's fine.  For you.  However, seeing as this is a multiplayer game, I think the optimal situation promotes an environment where everyone can enjoy the game, not just those who have three or more hours to put in every day.

The reason I don't think items/money should accrue while logged out is simple.

If you're never using an apartment, you don't need one; let people who play more often rent it out. If you really need a place to hunker down and/or mudsex there's always tavern back rooms (also; shameless plug for my idea of having multiple inn rooms available for daily/weekly rentals, so you can stash your trade goods)

As for money and items, when logged out, you don't need food or water, so the virtual maintenance balances itself out that way.

Two problems with your train of thought, here:

1) Apartments shouldn't be a privilege reserved for those who can play often.  The solution, if there is an apartment shortage, is to provide more apartments, not to create (or maintain, really) a two-tiered class system of players.

2) Virtual maintenance is only balanced at zero if the average player who plays regularly doesn't accrue any net gain by doing things while logged in.  Since I'm pretty sure everyone beyond the abject newbie stage maintains a positive 'sid balance (otherwise, they'd be starving to death), this clearly isn't in balance:  being logged in and playing yields a positive income, while not being logged in yields zero income.  Thus, the balance is clearly tipped in favor of those who log in frequently.  (Note:  this only applies to indies who aren't getting access to "free" food/water from a clan, and who aren't getting regular monthly payments from the clan.)

Another idea I had was learning by watching.

Sort of like an auto-teach. (small chance but a chance?)

If you are in the room when a master is performing certain actions, surely clever people could pick up on it. Someone makes a chest, you see him a couple times I think that would boost your ability to make chests realistically more than grabbing some wood and trying it a few times.  I could go on and on. You see a ranger finding tracks, just watching where he goes and what he does seems like it'd help you.

The problem with this is that it doesn't really solve the problem of "you haven't logged in enough, therefore  you suck at everything despite having played this character for 2-3 RL months."

Neither does it solve the "you're broke as a joke despite having played this character for 2-3 RL months...meanwhile the dude you saw in the Hall of Kings when you were picking scars is funding his own upstart merchant house."

[a strange shadow]

Good points, Synthesis, I can't really argue with any of that.

[Kismetic]

This problem has been encountered on many MUDs before.  

As to the opposite point, I remember one, specifically on a PK MUD, where there was a Swedish kid who was literally logged in 24 hours a day (idling while he slept 6-8 hours), and within a year or two, he'd managed to accrue every item and level on the game, which was beyond the intention of the creator.  What's funny, too, was that some of us with better random variables and PK skill were still "winning."

There are always going to be people who can devote more or less time to a game.  I always liked running into those folks I thought were dead or stored, and if they were a good roleplayer or interesting character, tried to make time to interact (because to me, you can bend the rules for interaction, because it is ultimately the golden rule).

Now, to me, it would already seem frustrating playing a character for a long time, having to endure this grind, roleplay it tediously, only to see Hamburglar twink their way to the finish line, so to speak.  Now, you're saying you can just skip the twinking, and karma up?  Bah.  I wouldn't play anything other than merchant, in this case.

I do like Synth's idea, and probably, for better or worse, I'd cut my playing times down.  I'm probably logging in too much as it is, right now.  I think you'd see a dramatic slide down to something like 10-15 hours a week, though.  I don't think I'm alone there, either.