Elves and riding

[a strange shadow]

Logic depends on perspective.

[solera]

My trooper did hear that one of her 'bred sergeants once  made her Neck runners ride.  Her own special test, I suppose.  Just gossip so I don't know it it really happened,and what happened to the runners then.

[SMuz]

Sure I'm a great runner IRL but if I was getting shot at it I'd jump in a car pretty quick. I figured this out logically and most players play their PCs with the ability to think logically. So I guess my question is again.. where do you draw the line between that, if they can think logically about one thing they should be able to apply that logic to their whole thought process, not just some.

It's pretty hard to explain to a Westerner's perspective. Elves have that group mentality, which is extremely powerful, where it would harm their whole race by riding. They would put themselves at the same level as the tribe. Not sure about the solo elves, though, but I think even they would have a built in instinctive shame attached to riding, even if they only care for themselves.

It's like a religious mentality, nobody questions it, no elf asks why shouldn't they, they just don't do it. It's how tradition works. An elf would probably not 'suddenly jump onto a mount'. They'd have to have a long thought process, with some logic process. In fact, they'd convince themselves that riding is bad even when they have a good reason to ride. And some non-elf would probably have to be there to convince the elf that it's the only choice.

If a human was being shot at, an there's an inix to him, the human's survival instinct would mean that the human jumps on the inix and rides the hell out.

If an elf was being shot at and there's some inix next to him, the elf's survival instinct would mean that the elf runs. There would be no instinct to jump on that inix. The thought just doesn't occur to them any more than jumping on a rock would. Maybe more creative elves would see that "hey, I can get on this mount and move faster/further" but in that elf's mind and pride, he'd be able to go faster and further than any mount.

[Timetwister]

Which doesn't make sense Smuz because players are using logic everyday they play their PCs. You have this hypocrisy where you pick and choose how your character thinks and then when the docs say, "think like this" you have paradoxically have to think that way because it's in the docs. From a psychological standpoint I think most people would eventually figure it out much as we humans on earth do. Not every tribe has 100% participation for something, and not every religion is going to have the same exact way of thinking for every person. A person thinks based on their experiences, not because they have an "instinct" to think a certain way.

I guess I'm more interested in the psychology of our characters on arm more then anything else.

Who says I can't ride with an elf? The staff that's who. So that's why I don't. No matter how much of an excuse you have it won't matter, the docs are the docs and I think that's very restrictive because I prefer things to happen ICly, unfortunately the game doesn't work that way as many things happen more often then not for OOC reasons, such as this "no elves ride" rule, which is an OOC rule.

[Taven]

Which doesn't make sense Smuz because players are using logic everyday they play their PCs. You have this hypocrisy where you pick and choose how your character thinks and then when the docs say, "think like this" you have paradoxically have to think that way because it's in the docs. From a psychological standpoint I think most people would eventually figure it out much as we humans on earth do. Not every tribe has 100% participation for something, and not every religion is going to have the same exact way of thinking for every person. A person thinks based on their experiences, not because they have an "instinct" to think a certain way.

I guess I'm more interested in the psychology of our characters on arm more then anything else.

Who says I can't ride with an elf? The staff that's who. So that's why I don't. No matter how much of an excuse you have it won't matter, the docs are the docs and I think that's very restrictive because I prefer things to happen ICly, unfortunately the game doesn't work that way as many things happen more often then not for OOC reasons, such as this "no elves ride" rule, which is an OOC rule.

I thought Smuz explained it pretty well. I'll try again.

First, there's a couple of aspects to this. One, it's a fantasy world to begin with. It would be silly, for example, to argue that there should be no magick because magick isn't real. It's similar to argue against the elven thought process. It may seem illogical to us, but we're humans. They're elves in a fantasy world, and an entirely different race. They do think that way, because it's how they are. You could argue, "why doesn't a human have four legs, it makes more sense because balance would be easier," but humans would still have two legs. It's not an OOC rule that elves think that way, it's IC because it's the way the game is built. It's much the same how all dwarves have a focus.

We're only human, of course, so we can only understand things in our conception. I liked the Christianity example used:

Riding a mount for an elf is like getting excommunicated from the Catholic church circa 1100 Papal states.  It's not only that your an outcast.  You're completely fucked.  No afterlife.  No respect.  No chance for work or proper employment.  Probably can't even work as a serf.  "But my children!  I must save them!"  Bollocks.  You saying you would risk their immortal soul (you're a believer mind you, 1100ad in rome), just so they can draw a few more breaths?  No way.

Hard to draw direct comparisons but for an elf it would be the same.  Not only is it a horrible, shameful act (ala raping children or cannibalism to a modern american) it pretty much ruins any chances you or your family have of ever living normally.  If you believe in any sort of spiritual stuffs you and they are probably completely screwed there.  No journey to Jihae when you die.  You're as worthless as sand and so are your kids.

An elf riding is not something that should really ever happen. Again, maybe in unimaginably extreme circumstances, but for the most part an elf who decided to ride would be like a staunch Christian suddenly deciding that to save their soul, they have to worship Satan. That's not exactly right, but as humans we can only make human comparisons.

[Timetwister]

So you're telling me we can't possibly understand why we're playing a character a certain way? I think we should be able to since the whole world is based off our own.

Is it safe to assume that the human race thinks like we do? What about half-elves? They are readily allowed to ride as they please.

My confusion is in the fact that there's no psychological explanation there's just a cop out explanation of "We can't possibly understand them.. they're elves.."

If we can understand the elves of Tolkien I'm fairly sure we can understand the elves of Zalanthas. There just doesn't seem to be any real reason that they don't ride other then the much utilized excuse of "pride" which is very much an earth-derived, human emotion. So if they are able to be so radically proud of their running ability as to just die instead of ride a mount, then can we not assume that it is possible for there to be elves that are so radically humble that they would ride?

[Taven]

So you're telling me we can't possibly understand why we're playing a character a certain way? I think we should be able to since the whole world is based off our own.

Is it safe to assume that the human race thinks like we do? What about half-elves? They are readily allowed to ride as they please.

My confusion is in the fact that there's no psychological explanation there's just a cop out explanation of "We can't possibly understand them.. they're elves.."

If we can understand the elves of Tolkien I'm fairly sure we can understand the elves of Zalanthas. There just doesn't seem to be any real reason that they don't ride other then the much utilized excuse of "pride" which is very much an earth-derived, human emotion. So if they are able to be so radically proud of their running ability as to just die instead of ride a mount, then can we not assume that it is possible for there to be elves that are so radically humble that they would ride?

Half-elves can ride or not based on character, because they're deluded with human blood. On the other hand, half-elves have other things that always occur, based solely on race. A half-elf always has psychological drama going on.

There is a psychological explanation, and that is that elves have pride. Sometimes people will do things IRL even if it gets them killed. For example, in the Salem witch trials there was a man who was pressed to death with rocks. If he confessed, he would be let go. His response? "More weight." Think of elves like that.

[Barzalene]

But if there weren't docs to work from, and if we weren't willing to accept the docs, no matter how odd they may be, eventually we'd all be playing 20th century humans in funny clothes.

I think that the confines to the docs and limited options in certain directions provide a catalyst for flavor and in fact creativity.

[Timetwister]

The problem is the divide between reality and fantasy. Unfortunately we can't explain the fantasy side of the game, but we can draw on our realities here on earth to explain as much of the similarities as we can.

For example, in the Salem witch trials there was a man who was pressed to death with rocks. If he confessed, he would be let go. His response? "More weight." Think of elves like that.

I like this example because we can draw on it to understand their mindsets, however there were just as many 'human' people who confessed and were let go. I guess it's hard to think of an elf as being that close-minded when we as humans are not at all, and we are the ones playing them. In my time I've seen many elves that are proud but the pride exhibited is all-encompassing, not just pride about running --  yet with all this pride they still have human flaws, exhibited by their very human players. This is where it's hard to justify such a stringent rule placed on the race itself. If I can pick out fallacies in an elf's mindset, then the pride excuse simply doesn't make much sense in the long run.

[Timetwister]

But if there weren't docs to work from, and if we weren't willing to accept the docs, no matter how odd they may be, eventually we'd all be playing 20th century humans in funny clothes.

I think that the confines to the docs and limited options in certain directions provide a catalyst for flavor and in fact creativity.

True, but the docs aren't adamantly adhered to by many players. When is the last time you knew a dwarves foci from the moment you met them? I have rarely ever figured out what a dwarves focus is without spending years around them, and if a dwarf was that determined and stubborn to complete his task wouldn't it be the only thing he ever talks about? Yet many dwarves are played with the freedom of humans simply for the strength boost.

So while the docs are a great thing, I've always seem them as guidelines, not actively enforceable rules, whereas they are enforceable but only at the staff's discretion. I have never heard of a dwarf being retired for not doing something related to his focus. Or seen a half-elf retired for not being a loner or being too happy all the time. Or seen a mul retired for playing against the typical emotionless bred automatons that they all seem to be. So that's the hypocrisy with the elven ride thing. If you ride with an elf you get retired, yet all these other races which have their docs bent or twisted as the players see fit don't get any flack about it.

This is just in my experience though maybe somebody can shed some light on why this is the case?

[Taven]

This is where it's hard to justify such a stringent rule placed on the race itself. If I can pick out fallacies in an elf's mindset, then the pride excuse simply doesn't make much sense in the long run.

I get the pride about riding, and even wagons, but I really don't understand silt skimmers. It's not like you can run over silt anyway.

[Barzalene]

But if there weren't docs to work from, and if we weren't willing to accept the docs, no matter how odd they may be, eventually we'd all be playing 20th century humans in funny clothes.

I think that the confines to the docs and limited options in certain directions provide a catalyst for flavor and in fact creativity.

True, but the docs aren't adamantly adhered to by many players. ...

So while the docs are a great thing, I've always seem them as guidelines, not actively enforceable rules, whereas they are enforceable but only at the staff's discretion. ...

This is just in my experience though maybe somebody can shed some light on why this is the case?

This may be true, but aren't you glad that there are some who do absolutely adhere to the docs? Don't you wish there were more?  I guess my point is, why do you want to use the people who are aiming low as your example?

[Timetwister]

I'm not trying to us them as an example, I'm just pointing out the fact that there doesn't seem to be a baseline for enforcing the docs. If it's pick and choose it's not fair to people who want to try and be flexible in their play and bend the docs so that they can work on something that might be construed as a 'black sheep' but if docs have to be followed 100% you simply can't do it. Yet that frustrates players who see docs broken everyday in all sorts of instances.

Like I said I'm looking for a baseline, so that all of the docs are enforced, not just the ones that are deemed more important than others. I don't think we should put that kind of a factor on documentation. All of it should come together and be followed, not just some of it as we see fit as players. So it's either follow them or bend them, or just break them altogether by making an elf that tries to ride and get retired because that documentation 'rule' is at the top of the ladder and we all know that.

[SMuz]

Which doesn't make sense Smuz because players are using logic everyday they play their PCs. You have this hypocrisy where you pick and choose how your character thinks and then when the docs say, "think like this" you have paradoxically have to think that way because it's in the docs. From a psychological standpoint I think most people would eventually figure it out much as we humans on earth do. Not every tribe has 100% participation for something, and not every religion is going to have the same exact way of thinking for every person. A person thinks based on their experiences, not because they have an "instinct" to think a certain way.

It may be logical to you, but not to an elf. We have very different ways of thinking than even humans then, much less an elf. To a modern American, born with the concepts of liberalism and individual rights, a group mentality is a lot harder to grasp. It's very well that they'd put a group of people they don't even know as more important than themselves, hence why the shame thing is so powerful. If you want a modern look, look at the WW2 kamikaze pilots. They individually earn nothing from killing themselves, but because of the powerful group mentality, they'd rather die than be shamed. Elves care even more about their tribe than the most tight-knit human society you could think of. I've spent so many hours trying to explain RL Asian mindset to a lot of people, who just don't get it, a more alien elven mindset is so much harder to explain.

Look again at an elf. They're some of the weakest humanoids in Zalanthas. Elves would get torn apart against any other humanoid one on one. That's why they've formed into tribes or gangs. Tribes are what makes them survive. Heck, play an untribed elf; you'll find it difficult to beat anyone without friends. They need to work together to live, and become one with their tribe.

Now fast forward this as long as elven history has gone on. It's a lot of thousand years with such a tribe mentality burned into their brain. They also have a long history of being runners. It's something they're proud of doing. They run better than any other race in the world.

And heck, there's plenty of things that humans do that go against logic. In some cases just for tradition. Look at the fight or flight reaction. There's tons of biological quirks that we haven't worked out yet which were needed for our ancestors to survive. People can and do think with their instincts all the time.

And if you've been in enough internet/political arguments, you'll find that people don't find logic to support their beliefs. They find facts that support their political beliefs. For an elf, riding a mount is just some absurd political belief, some kind of heresy. They will pull all sorts of mental gymnastics to point out that they don't need to ride, even if the facts clearly state so.

Is it safe to assume that the human race thinks like we do? What about half-elves? They are readily allowed to ride as they please.

Half-elves are a different race. They don't identify with elves at all. Making all the other points moot as there's nothing for them to be ashamed about. Half-elves are truly only themselves and the world. IIRC, they don't even really identify with each other as the same group. Because of this sort of loneliness, they even have a better connection with their mounts than with other people.

There just doesn't seem to be any real reason that they don't ride other then the much utilized excuse of "pride" which is very much an earth-derived, human emotion. So if they are able to be so radically proud of their running ability as to just die instead of ride a mount, then can we not assume that it is possible for there to be elves that are so radically humble that they would ride?

Pride is far stronger in an elf than it is in a human. There are perhaps elves that are more humble than other elves, but it's still an ingrained trait. Elven pride doesn't just apply to themselves.. anyone would rather put aside their pride than die. Their pride applies to every other elf, which makes it a complex situation.

Of course, there will be elves who just aren't as proud of other elves (again why half elves don't give a damn). But they will still have enough pride to respect how other elves don't like the riding thing, long after they've agreed not to ride. I don't get why not skimmers, though.

Who says I can't ride with an elf? The staff that's who. So that's why I don't. No matter how much of an excuse you have it won't matter, the docs are the docs and I think that's very restrictive because I prefer things to happen ICly, unfortunately the game doesn't work that way as many things happen more often then not for OOC reasons, such as this "no elves ride" rule, which is an OOC rule.

That's why you have to be creative with interpreting it. As it is, the OOC rules are OOC rules. They enforce a certain kind of interaction and create their own little cultural conflicts that flesh out the game. And IMO, being creative with it is one of the things that make the game fun. This is a lot of room for interpretation, though, as long as it's not explicitly written.

Of course, you'll find a lot of cop outs in any fantasy setting (especially all this 'magic', which is a cop out by definition), and you'll have to roll with it eventually

[Barzalene]

I'm not asking to be argumentative, but curious. If you (hypothetical you) wrote the staff and said, I want to play a Red Fang (they're closed so that's probably safe) and I want to play someone who bucks tradition and and goes against whatever is held sacred. I want to be a black sheep. And they said, Go, go with our blessing. So you get on a beetle and rode, and your tribe gangs up on you and kills you - would that be an acceptable reaction and one less stifling than a no from staff?

I guess what I'm asking here is if we demand that the staff give us the  freedom to interpret docs as we like, do we also demand that our peers do the same, or is it acceptable for us, as a community to be self-policing?

[theebie]

Why would beeing dragged on a sled, or beeing carried by another elf be different from sitting on a mount ?
In either case you're not moving on your own ? So would all three be intolerable for an elf ?

What's with elven children ? Especially with nomadic elves that travel all time ? Due to them beeing children, how
will they keep up ?

What's with the example of the war argosy ? What if there's a little merchant and a whole gang of elves enter
the wagon ? And the merchant would make the wagon move ? Would all elves really jump off ?

[Semper]

Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

[Taven]

What's with the example of the war argosy ? What if there's a little merchant and a whole gang of elves enter
the wagon ? And the merchant would make the wagon move ? Would all elves really jump off ?

No, it's a joke. See the original post. The joke is that elves can't ride in things as a matter of pride, so if you're in a moving wagon they HAVE to get off it, to save their pride!!!

But not really, because that would be silly. In reality, if they're entering a wagon to raid it, there's no intention to ride.

[racurtne]

Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

You don't need to look into the past to find people who apply logic to only selective things.

People do it all the time, like in matters concerning science and religion. Some people just take things for granted, and don't need to think about them logically to hold that opinion or act that way. They're the same race, species, and even from the same time.

It's like being racist, there usually isn't much logic behind it. It stems from a lot of opinions that racists never allow to be seriously challenged.

Likewise, an elf doesn't allow the fact that there is another mode of transportation apart from their legs to seriously enter into the equation.

[Jdr]

I wish people would understand that it's FUN to play an alien mindset. It's something that is so incomprehensible that you are making a role of it. It's like, at a lesser degree, playing someone polyamorous when you're proudly married. IRL you simply could not imagine, or tolerate, the concept of having several wives or husbands. But it's fun to imagine, isn't it? Doing something so incomprehensible and it being normal.

Elves don't ride mounts because it's FUN that they don't. The way they think, it's fun.

[Cindy42]

i never understood the part about elves refusing to ride skimmers. seems sort of redundant to me. is it simply because skimmers are something that transports you when you sit on it?

[BlackMagic0]

All I really got to add is any of my tribal elves would kill the elf they seen riding a mount or in a wagon. They'd see it as you being a shame to the entire race and need to be put down for it in the most radical way. They'd hunt the elf down and destroy them for acting like a weak human that uses beasts of burden and not their own strength / legs.

So being the black sheep would most likely get you killed. Instantly.  So those 'few' elves (if any even existed, which I don't agree they do) that ever thought differently would be removed.

Its instinct and culture up bringing. Plain and simple.  Its not only something the race seems to hold as a whole from birth, but something burned into your mind all your life by tribe/family.
To an elf nothing makes more logical sense then using his/her own legs to run from place to place. Its something seen as completely illogical to ride by the race.

Logic depends on perspective.

Elves have a different perspective than us. Just as an Indian might have a different perspective than a European way back in the colonial days.

I agree with Strange Shadow.  If you add something: logic depends on perspective of the person in question.  Which means your perspective should be from that of the elf and not yourself as you are the player, not the character, our and its logic are far different.

[Cutthroat]

i never understood the part about elves refusing to ride skimmers. seems sort of redundant to me. is it simply because skimmers are something that transports you when you sit on it?

It's easier to understand it like this: if an elf can't move over a certain distance on its own, then it's not worth attempting to travel that distance. For everything else, there's an elf's own body. (Except in exceptionally exceptional cases, which are so rare anyway.)

[jhunter]

I think elves should be able to run on the top of silt with the right footwear. 

[BleakOne]

People are really stretching it to think of a reason why elves should ride. The point is culturally, psychologically, emotionally and socially they abhore riding, as a species. The extremely rare freak who does ride would be killed by other elves for the abomination he is, or more likely fall and break his neck while trying to ride for the very first time with broken arms and legs at high speed.