Elves and riding

[Jdr]

Kah.

[Bebop]

There is no universal answer.

You are considering riding a mount with an elf on an OOC level.  Keep in mind, an elf would never consider this.  It would just NEVER occur to an elf.  The same way it would never occur to me to take a helicopter to go to work instead of a car.  The same way it would never occur to me to start speaking in Japanese because I don't know it.  An elf, and all of the elves in the history of elves were raised not to ride mounts.  It would, on a day to day basis never occur to them that they need/should have a mount.  Desperate matters are another matter, but that is a case by case basis.  I think an elf would sooner shell out a fortune to pay someone who could get to their child faster (assuming a city elf's child is out of the city for some reason) then thinking ZOMG I should get a mount.  And you won't know how to ride one anyway, even if something did happen.

[lordcooper]

Would it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

[SMuz]

It's not exactly like cannibalism, it's not like baby eating. Those things are shameful to other people, but some people would be understanding. Maybe yeah, you could make an analogy about eating a friend to live, but it doesn't quite click.

Elves who ride are just sort of saying that they're worthless. People can live with the trauma of eating 100 babies, eating siblings, getting raped. Those are things that can be forgotten. But an elf who rides is worthless forever. He is no longer on the same level of any elf, more worthless than a half-elf or any other outcast. He forever becomes lower than a beast of burden, as even such beasts don't need to ride other creatures.

He has let down every other elf out there who insists that elves don't ride out of pride. And that's the worst thing an elf can do.

Probably part of the reason I don't play elves, they suck anyways,

Elves are supposed to stick to one spot only It's really not bad if you're not an explorer type who can stay in the cities. There often shouldn't be any reason to go out of the walls at all. If you want to play an elf that leaves the gates, play a half-elf (or one who looks like an elf).

From a gaming perspective, elves are lots of fun because they're pure social PvP... they are out to steal from everyone out there. You'll get to devise some fun, complex scams with them. They're really a lot of fun with the right mentality. Elves fail at combat or exploring, though.

Would it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

I don't think they even have the ride skill. If they do, it should definitely be removed

[Marshmellow]

Would it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

There are extreme cases where they should be able to ride.  They are not physically incapable, so doing a code-fix like this is fixing a bruise with amputation of the limb, if you ask me.

[spicemustflow]

Shalooonsh wrote a story about Dune Shriek, whose ankles were broken and she was tied to an erdlu and set for home. Her tribemates didn't think she was weak at all for not cutting the ropes with her teeth and crawled over miles and miles of fucking desert.

And I agree with him, elves are not -that- anal.

I think this is from an entirely different perspective. The elf was -forced- to do it, against her will. It's like being a rape victim. There's a whole lot of negative stigmatism from others possibly, but would probably receive a different reaction if he/she is someone you deeply care about. Still, there's different ways a tribe could react to it as well (see it as a sign of weakness and just kill her), and what is written by Shalooonsh is probably an exceptional case.

I wasn't saying elves should ride, not even city elves, but to say they wouldn't put a dying/sick/disabled tribemate on a mount is, in my opinion, not getting the race. They are all about survival in the end, no matter how clingy to their traditions and pride. If pride did trump survival, we wouldn't have city elves at all.

[a strange shadow]

I think your premise is wrong there. City elves have an entire city of easy prey. I doubt the majority would see their choice in lifestyle as shameful. The only reason players hate city elves is because players like to play outdoors, and city elves are absolutely pits for that kind of role (though it can be done. Shout-out to Pendeh!)

[Qzzrbl]

Would it be possible/easy to disallow elves from riding in a coded fashion?

There are extreme cases where they should be able to ride.  They are not physically incapable, so doing a code-fix like this is fixing a bruise with amputation of the limb, if you ask me.

True-- besides, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a full-blooded elf even thinking about riding anything in all my time playing, folks seem to be pretty good about following the docs Staff seem to be pretty good about keeping their collective pimp hands strong.

[spicemustflow]

I think your premise is wrong there. City elves have an entire city of easy prey. I doubt the majority would see their choice in lifestyle as shameful. The only reason players hate city elves is because players like to play outdoors, and city elves are absolutely pits for that kind of role (though it can be done. Shout-out to Pendeh!)

No, I meant the migration and seeking refuge in the cities, a very alien and uncomfortable environment for the first generation of immigrants, shows how adaptable elves are. City is not full of easy prey when you know nothing about it.

[Marc]

I think your premise is wrong there. City elves have an entire city of easy prey. I doubt the majority would see their choice in lifestyle as shameful. The only reason players hate city elves is because players like to play outdoors, and city elves are absolutely pits for that kind of role (though it can be done. Shout-out to Pendeh!)

No, I meant the migration and seeking refuge in the cities, a very alien and uncomfortable environment for the first generation of immigrants, shows how adaptable elves are. City is not full of easy prey when you know nothing about it.

When was this migration you speak of?  Are not most elves pretty much where they are when the original cataclysms happened?  I'm sure some have moved, some have died out etc, but the city elves?  Southern ones have been there for Ages (literally).  The northern ones?  Probably the same.  (I don't know the ins and outs of all the tribal documentation.  There could be a blatant exception.)

Try this:  Riding a mount for an elf is like getting excommunicated from the Catholic church circa 1100 Papal states.  It's not only that your an outcast.  You're completely fucked.  No afterlife.  No respect.  No chance for work or proper employment.  Probably can't even work as a serf.  "But my children!  I must save them!"  Bollocks.  You saying you would risk their immortal soul (you're a believer mind you, 1100ad in rome), just so they can draw a few more breaths?  No way.

Hard to draw direct comparisons but for an elf it would be the same.  Not only is it a horrible, shameful act (ala raping children or cannibalism to a modern american) it pretty much ruins any chances you or your family have of ever living normally.  If you believe in any sort of spiritual stuffs you and they are probably completely screwed there.  No journey to Jihae when you die.  You're as worthless as sand and so are your kids.  
"But life is the most important!  Survival trumps all!"  I call bollocks on that.  Elves will not do anything to survive.  If they would, they'd be humans.  Survival is not the end all.

Pride is.

Taven laid it out perfectly.  We can brainstorm a thousand exceptions for when riding would be an option for an elf, but if you decide to be that exception you better play it to the hilt.  Make sure staff knows what you're doing when you do it and after it is done.  Imagine where you just killed your mother/father and f'd their corpse, then ate it.  That's the sort of horrible shit your elf is doing getting on that beetle.  Disturbed as hell to put it mildly.  Be crazy as a loon.  Nightmares and flashbacks.  Go completely nuts and never stop rping it.  You're elf will never forget.  Never get over it.  It will never fade.  Ever.  You're worse than dung and YOU know it.

[Potaje]

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

Oh wait, you need to save you tribe now, hmm, how about waying some one in the tribe to let them know, so much faster then ridding or running. Oh you have to deliver something back to the tribe in time, and you going to run out of juice, well shit, better planning have other runners at key point to relay the thing.

Your an elf for goodness sake, think like one.

For ever situation you come up with there is a feasible strategy that does not involve ridding. Ridding is not a sign of desperation but poor imagination, ingenuity and or laziness.

[Semper]

I don't see why it's so hard of a concept for people. Elves are not humans, and should not be played like one. If you don't get how they should be played, it's better if you don't play them or follow the good examples of others until you do.

The docs say there's the -possibility- of an elf riding and people go bat-shit trying to find an exception. For PC elves, it's not even a remote possibility, and shouldn't even cross their minds. The staff have said so on several occasions that even -I- have given up on it. And believe me, I've tried to figure out why/why not an elf wouldn't ride and all that. It's a waste of time to try and justify your elf to ride, and this feature wasn't intended for the race by the staff.

Riding a mount/wagon/skimmer for an elf to move from one spot to another just doesn't come to their mind. There's no further point in looking for an exception beyond this.

It probably doesn't even make sense, which is why this topic always comes up now and then. Roll with it, and wait for Arm 2 where there won't be no elves. 

[spicemustflow]

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

When was this migration you speak of?  Are not most elves pretty much where they are when the original cataclysms happened?  I'm sure some have moved, some have died out etc, but the city elves?  Southern ones have been there for Ages (literally).  The northern ones?  Probably the same.  (I don't know the ins and outs of all the tribal documentation.  There could be a blatant exception.)

The cities haven't been built around certain tribes, so they must have come from somewhere and the docs for some of them even state from where. Most of the elven docs include names of tribes that migrate, dissolve, unite into a bigger tribe or fall apart. The tribe, while still supremely important to an elf, is much less monolithic structure than people imagine.

Again, I'm not saying that elves should ride or brainstorming for the loopholes in the rule. However, to say that elves would rather leave another of their own to die than to put them on a stretcher/mount/whatever is, well, stupid. Widening the definition of what an elf would consider riding makes the whole race into a caricature.

[Barzalene]

I wholeheartedly agree that if you don't want to play your elves by the documentation, that you need to go and play something else. However, I want to point out again, the original poster has stated that he isn't asking because he wants to circumvent the racial requirements for elves, but rather explore their implications.

[Potaje]

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

[spicemustflow]

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

That's the exactly what I was talking about, making a mockery of the whole concept.

[Potaje]

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

That's the exactly what I was talking about, making a mockery of the whole concept.

Now your being obtuse. There is no mockery of the concept, not in being drug upon a stretcher by another elf. Much like a baby elf carried by its mother. If the stretcher is to much for you, then drop your gear and carry your tribe mate in your arms.

And another time, with two broken legs and arms, how the fuck do you even thing your going to drape yourself over the mount. Oh wait I have two broken legs, but I can stand, no wait I will pull myself up with these two broken arms. Really..

so, these things said, my point is uses some ingenuity, don't rely on the easy way out by ridding a mount.

[Saellyn]

... Why can't we be friends?

[spicemustflow]

All this talk of saving a tribe, or helping a tribe mate thats wounded, and ridding. If there was a mount, most likely to haul some goods in the first place. Well kill the mount make the bones and some cloaks, shit, pants, whatever into a stretcher and drag them back to camp.

And I suppose being carried on a stretcher is wildly different that being carried on the beetle.

Sure it is, your not ridding, your being dragged in a sense.

That's the exactly what I was talking about, making a mockery of the whole concept.

Now your being obtuse. There is no mockery of the concept, not in being drug upon a stretcher by another elf. Much like a baby elf carried by its mother. If the stretcher is to much for you, then drop your gear and carry your tribe mate in your arms.

And another time, with two broken legs and arms, how the fuck do you even thing your going to drape yourself over the mount. Oh wait I have two broken legs, but I can stand, no wait I will pull myself up with these two broken arms. Really..

so, these things said, my point is uses some ingenuity, don't rely on the easy way out by ridding a mount.

Yes, when you said that an elf would sooner kill the mount and make a stretcher out of bones and cloaks than simply put his wounded friend on that mount that's pretty much the caricature of the "elves don't ride" mindset. If an elf can't use his legs for whatever reason, what's the difference in what gets him home?

[Nyr]

Learn to quote, people.  We can't idly watch an RP argument unfold while eating popcorn and drinking soda if you don't quote properly.

[bcw81]

I love you Nyr.

Learn to quote, people.  We can't idly watch an RP argument unfold while eating popcorn and drinking soda if you don't quote properly.

[SMuz]

There is no mockery of the concept, not in being drug upon a stretcher by another elf. Much like a baby elf carried by its mother. If the stretcher is to much for you, then drop your gear and carry your tribe mate in your arms.

It makes me wonder... does a baby elf take insult in being carried around by its mother? What about a child elf?

[Xeran Van Houten]

Elfkind's refusal to ride obviously comes from the pre-birth trauma of being carried around by their mother in the womb, which is magnified by the trauma of birth itself (upon discovery that they are, in fact, an elf), and compounded by the initial years in which the elf cannot move under its own power.

How could we have missed this?!


heh... Anyway, the solution to carrying an injured elf is simple - knock it the fuck out.  However, this "discussion" is starting to get silly and seems forced.

[X-D]

First, "riding" only has one "D" folks!

Second, Elf babies are like Gazelle, they can walk within a few minutes of birth, try stealing a few minutes later and of course run shortly after that.


Don't you guys know anything?

[Timetwister]

Where do you draw the line between our PCs whether they are elves or not thinking logically about some things and then not so much about others. Wouldn't they eventually figure out that they don't really care if they ride a mount to survive a situation or whatever? Sure I'm a great runner IRL but if I was getting shot at it I'd jump in a car pretty quick. I figured this out logically and most players play their PCs with the ability to think logically. So I guess my question is again.. where do you draw the line between that, if they can think logically about one thing they should be able to apply that logic to their whole thought process, not just some.