Elves and riding

[Marshmellow]

theebie, if you could save your life by drinking the blood of 30 dead infants, would you do it?

[Yam]

EDIT Derp thougt this was about wagons/skimmers.

[spicemustflow]

Shalooonsh wrote a story about Dune Shriek, whose ankles were broken and she was tied to an erdlu and set for home. Her tribemates didn't think she was weak at all for not cutting the ropes with her teeth and crawled over miles and miles of fucking desert.

And I agree with him, elves are not -that- anal.

[Yam]

A big logical reason that desert elves don't ride mounts is because their own legs are more efficient. They do not need to feed, water, care for, protect, and hide a mount while they hunt or travel.

They have no qualms about using animals at pack beasts or so on.





The fact that they don't ride skimmers or wagons seems kind of shoehorned to me though.

[Marc]

theebie, if you could save your life by drinking the blood of 30 dead infants, would you do it?

I would, but I'm (sorta) human.  That means everything is possible.

Luckily this topic is about elves.

This is a pessimistic outlook:  Given the power of debate and persuasion you can argue ANYTHING is realistic, possible, feasible etc.  That goes doubly so for Armageddon.  Anything can be argued successfully.

In this case I'm sure our imaginative community could come up with thousands of exceptions to the elf riding rule that make perfect logical sense.  Broken ankles, knocked unconscious and tied to a mount/wagon, psionic persuasion.  The list goes on and on and on.

None of it matters.  The rule is -Elves do not ride-.  Thats the alpha and the omega right there.

It's a fantasy game so realism goes right out the window (not that it necessarily applies to a fantastical race).  Staff and tradition have established a game world.  It's on us to follow those rules and guidelines.  One of those rules/guidelines is elves do not ride.  Another is dwarves have focuses.  We can choose to ignore these rules, but we are doing ourselves a disservice by discarding the substance of Zalanthas and blatantly ruining other players experience by presenting an erroneous game world.

If you feel your situation is one of the extreme examples where your elf should ride, discuss it with staff.  If you're going to make a habit of it I would most definitely send in a character report/question, explain your reasonings and see what staff says.  If it's a once off situation (broken-ankle/erdlu bit) do yourself the service of wishing up and letting staff know you're an elf riding so the world can respond accordingly.  I'd also send in a character report explaining the situation.

tldr; Elf?  Don't ride.  Think you're special?  You're not.  Still want to ride?  Ask staff on a case by case basis

[Mazy]

I think one point that is trying to be conveyed is that in the documentation it says that elves are strongly adverse to riding mounts because of their pride. Documentations are a guideline that are meant to be followed but not an answer to every situation. From the list though, I doubt the elf would consider mounting over the numerous other options, especially if you have a tribe to help you out.

Ultimately, for an elf, you would be wise to follow the guidelines. Do not hop on mounts if you like karma.

[Thunkkin]

theebie, if you could save your life by drinking the blood of 30 dead infants, would you do it?

Well, if they're already dead ... hell yes.

[Semper]

Shalooonsh wrote a story about Dune Shriek, whose ankles were broken and she was tied to an erdlu and set for home. Her tribemates didn't think she was weak at all for not cutting the ropes with her teeth and crawled over miles and miles of fucking desert.

And I agree with him, elves are not -that- anal.

I think this is from an entirely different perspective. The elf was -forced- to do it, against her will. It's like being a rape victim. There's a whole lot of negative stigmatism from others possibly, but would probably receive a different reaction if he/she is someone you deeply care about. Still, there's different ways a tribe could react to it as well (see it as a sign of weakness and just kill her), and what is written by Shalooonsh is probably an exceptional case.

[theebie]

Just to make things clear, I'm fine with that elves don't ride, I don't want any of my elven characters to ride, and I know that if I'd be unhappy with the situation, I should choose another race.

That wasn't the point I wanted to make though.

Elves live for their pride and their tribe. So their tribe is worth a hell of a lot to them. So if you'd put those two things against each other

Elf doesn't want to ride because it's shameful  <-- versus --> Elf can save his tribemates if he rides on a mount

Then I see two strong points here ?

[BleakOne]

Elves, either city or desert, never ride... ever. Death, losing a job, losing a leg - all are preferable to riding.

I guess you could try really hard to make exceptional circumstances, but in the end, elves do not ride mounts for any reason at all. They're crazy that way, like dwarfs wanting to do one particular thing, like half-elves both wanting to be alone and part of something at the same time, like half-giants not being able to be geniuses.

As for saving their tribe, they'd lose their tribe in saving it since no elf would be tribe mates with some crazy rider-of-mounts elf.

[Rhyden]

I think the shame of letting a tribe mate die would be lesser than the shame of riding a mount.

Also, I can't think of one area in game where an elf would absolutely need a mount to get anywhere they couldn't already.

[Potaje]

I think it wouldn't be, an elf could save his tribe mate by riding, but instead would, if that bonded, die along side them while trying to save them, never setting them on a mount. Think Samaria code, think that level of self sacrifice for honor. We wouldn't kill our selves in the west, but their idea of life and honor doesn't hold the same mentality.

[Yasbusta]

I tend to disagree a bit, would an elf ride for sid, no, ordered, no.

To save their child, hell yes.

There isn't a damn thing in this world that I wouldn't do to save my son's life.

eat 100 dead babies to safe him, done.

That being said I think its a bit of a rp choice, would the elf even consider it as an option, probably not, but if it did...
Also, when riding to save your tribe, you pretty much must be accepting that everyone in your tribe though they will be alive will want nothing to do with you.

My two sids

[Nyr]

You're not an elf.

[Timetwister]

What about an elf that was put into service by a sorcerer-king of a city-state, serves for a hundred years and got really old, was raised to champion of the city-state and decided he'd rather ride then run because his legs ache from time to time. 

Fewvpeople will get this reference.

[Jdr]

Guys, you made an elf full knowing the role you were getting into. Accept it and enjoy it. Don't like it, don't play an elf. Don't like being a pariah and hunted by most people in the Known? Don't be a magicker. Don't like the idea of being OCD focused on a life goal? Don't play a dwarf. Why does everyone want to try and defy documentation, when documentation is the best thing about this game?

[Barzalene]

I think it's an interesting question since it is simply an academic question, not a quest to get around the docs.

[Yasbusta]

You're not an elf.

Well yes I am not, but given that in Arm life is highly valued, is see no difference with my stated opinion. I stick by it

[X-D]

You can stick by it all you want, you are still not an elf, so..moot at best.

[Potaje]

You're not an elf.

Well yes I am not, but given that in Arm life is highly valued, is see no difference with my stated opinion. I stick by it

The point is simple, no matter the means will never justify the ends. In the mind of an elf this would apply to ridding. That is whats being said. The frustrating stance on both sides is in fact, you weigh these pondering by your real life, modern, (most likely) westernized sense abilities.

In no way do I mean this as a slight, but try and step back to approach it from the opposite side to truly understand why they would not. Its hard to do, sure, but thats what makes getting into a role difficult sometimes. Removing oneself from preconceived understandings.

There has been known cultures that would rather see their entire family dead before breaking a tradition, including as far as killing their own children. Zealots. Consider elves as a race of zealots when it comes to their beliefs.

Hard to grasp for most of us. It can be for myself. 

[Yasbusta]

Probably part of the reason I don't play elves, they suck anyways,

[lordcooper]

To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Now, this isn't a biological certainty - but rather a social standard that has been very deeply ingrained in all elves. So it is conceivable that if riding a mount would save an elf's life, that he would do it. But this act would be the most shameful thing that could be committed. Never again could such an elf have the respect of their tribemates. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It states explicitly in the docs that an elf may ride in extreme circumstances.

I like to think of it as somewhat like cannibalism.  If I was lost in a desert with one other person and we were both starving to death, then I might* kill and eat them in order to survive.  I sure as hell would never tell a soul, and I'd do my best to hide the evidence.  I imaging it would also be a really fucking hard thing to live with.

If an elf had both arms and legs broken (and there just so happened to be a mount nearby) then I could see some (not all) elves draping themselves across it to reach somewhere safe.  I'm pretty damn sure they'd never tell anyone, and do their best to hide the evidence, possibly even getting off and fucking rolling the last part of the journey so as not to be caught out.  And they'd still probably be more haunted by the experience than you or I would be by having to slaughter and eat a friend.

I think that's the closest match in westernized human morals.

*I'm honestly not sure if I could.

[Jdr]

If I ever see an elf riding, I'm sure as hell going to be reporting it. And I hope that if the elf in question doesn't have an INCREDIBLE good reason (like being a half-elf), staff will forbid them from playing an elf for a long time.

[Taven]

First, some humor:

The lean, muscular elf says, in allundean:
     "What are you talking about riding?  I'm merely sitting on top of it while it's walking!

An elven raider has entered the large, badass war argosy.

You shout in sirihish, "Quick, start moving! He'll jump off!"

The large, badass war argosy rumbles and shakes as it moves.

An elven raider leaves the large, badass war argosy.

Now on to the actual post.

I thought what Smuz said was pretty spot on. He found the quote I was looking for!

Elves live for their pride and their tribe. So their tribe is worth a hell of a lot to them. So if you'd put those two things against each other

Elf doesn't want to ride because it's shameful  <-- versus --> Elf can save his tribemates if he rides on a mount

If I ever see an elf riding, I'm sure as hell going to be reporting it. And I hope that if the elf in question doesn't have an INCREDIBLE good reason (like being a half-elf), staff will forbid them from playing an elf for a long time.

If I was playing an elf, I could see them riding in very, very, VERY extreme circumstances, if it somehow hinged on saving their tribe. Not all elves would. If the circumstances were such, documentation does allow for it. True, the elf would be forever shamed, but if it was for the greater good of the tribe, I think an elf might do it. I also think that it's reasonable to make that choice, and still be a good, trusted player. What would a good trusted player do with that? They'd make through thinks and feels every step of the way, wish up immediately before and during, continue to role-play out the anguish, and ultimately send a through report in to staff explaining why they did it. They would have to accept that, regardless of reason, their elf would be forever shamed. They would have to accept that, as a representation of that shame, their elf might be stored.

The possibility should never, ever, ever be taken lightly. It would also probably never happen, because the circumstances would have to be so wild and extreme, that I honestly can't imagine them. An elf would do absolutely everything to avoid it. But, the documentation says that there are extreme circumstances that can occur.

For common, everyday purposes and even most extreme purposes, an elf should never ride. If you played 200 elf PCs, you'd probably never find that extreme of a circumstances. But that doesn't mean that it can't happen.

[Rhyden]

Guys, you made an elf full knowing the role you were getting into. Accept it and enjoy it. Don't like it, don't play an elf. Don't like being a pariah and hunted by most people in the Known? Don't be a magicker. Don't like the idea of being OCD focused on a life goal? Don't play a dwarf. Why does everyone want to try and defy documentation, when documentation is the best thing about this game?

I would argue that the docs are great guidelines, at best. Though most Zalanthans would abide to these guidelines, most PC's tend to become the exception. Then again, there are some docs which are not very flexible. Like elves riding mounts. Just ain't gonna happen, Kah?