Coded discrimination

[jhunter]

It's just that most people wouldn't visibly offend a gemmer. Almost everyone would cheer on people who beat up a gemmer, but nobody wants to take that first step. A dumb character would beat one up for sure, but that's a rarity.

Right. You can discriminate against them without being suicidal about it. That's where I take issue with people that seem to think discriminating against them = I have to be openly abusive and risk pissing off the tainted one that could turn my children into balls of dung and make my genitals fall off. Against the gemmed, unless you're a templar, I think discrimination would take place in more subtle ways like, slow service, higher prices, moving to sit farther away from them, making gestures or symbols to ward off their taint, etc.

[Taven]

I've never liked this "Don't discriminate against that PC, as they could harm you." thing. Everyone can and should be a dick to anyone they please to discriminate against. No one should act with the prior knowledge of consequence without good reason. Why? Because it's missing out on the actual roleplay. Fuck all this virtual bollocks. If your gemmer doesn't like being discriminated against, zap me already. Let your PC learn the hard way because it's FUN.

Also, racism is stupid and ignorant. So let everyone be stupid and ignorant about consequence. This comes up again and again, like people shouldn't be racist towards half-breeds in the Sun Legions. I'll be the judge of that.

Role-play is what your character would do in a situation. If you're role-playing someone who says exactly what they think to anyone, that's great. But character motivation can be a lot about fear. Why are templars bowed to in the south? Sure, it might be some respect, but you fear them. And yes, you can play a character who spits on a templar, but they get consequences. As a player you know that that gemmer can't do random bad luck curses, but as a PC you may think that that is very real. Punching a gemmer might be dangerous and give you crotch rot. On the other hand, punching a random half-breed who looks like a nobody for fear they may have friends is a little more extreme. I'd say go ahead and punch it. But ultimately it isn't about the fact that everyone can be a dick, it's about a character's individual history and motivations. That may make them punch a gemmer and brawl a breed, or it may make them move down the bar a few stools when either moves in.

I don't quite understand -- players _choose_ to play characters who are known to be feared/hated (any PC that isn't a non-magical human, naturally) but, don't want the fear/hate to be Codedly enforced?!

Look, maybe it isn't worth the time to code all this (although, I'd point to CODED POOP)... but, if you're going to make the argument that the OP isn't logical/ shouldn't be coded then let's re-write the docs to say everyone loves magical/elven/breed PCs and would always treat them as equal or better than regular people.

I think what we're discussing is the level it should be coded, if any. You could very well say "I don't understand why people don't just RP this out more. Why do we need it coded? It should be about the interaction." Will coding discrimination lead to any more interaction and enjoyment for people who play breeds, elves, or gemmers? It depends on the person, but I would argue that the only benefit it has is making other people more aware of the role-play possibilities. Other characters should be discriminating as well, it shouldn't just be a coded thing. Also, if you force anyone to take too many coded and RP'd punishments, they just won't want to play that anymore. Yes, discrimination is great and fun to RP, but a player still wants interaction. The real question is, would coding this make those PCs more fun to play, within the documentation?

I don't mean more fun that everyone gives you gifts and goes around singing your praise, I mean more fun by PC-to-PC interaction, and giving an interesting game flavor. If it doesn't do those things, then it shouldn't be implemented.

I imagine my wanna be bad ass byner would pick a fight with a magicker in the gaj knowing that
-If the mage attempts to use magick to defends themselves, the templerate will fuck them up.
-In my byners own mind, he's superior to the magicker. Undoubtly, people will surely come to his/her aid if the magicker tries anything.
-My byner is tough as nails, in his/her own mind. Even got the scarring to show for it.
-Publicly humiliating a mage would make my character look so cool in front of his/her byner buddies.

Of course, the magciker is then free to make a fool out of my character. But if we're in a tavern chances are that they will choose not to, as they know they're going to be jumped by half the cities soldiers if they do. Which is something I think people forget, sure. My character isn't going to mouth off to a magicker outside of the walls, that's suicidal. But inside the walls they're powerless. It'd be common knowledge that magick in a city-state is illegal.

It seems a lot of beliefs about magickers mean that people think they can harm you without actually casting magick.

Like the superstitions in the docs about your house collapsing into the earth if you meet an angry Rukkian, a singing Viv drains your of moisture, A smile from a Whiran will bring bad luck, ect. The superstitions and so on would make touching such a creature, even to beat them, an unseemly prospect for the bigoted.

I'd like to chime in on this. Magickers are very scary things. That and if a magicker said screw it and decided to fuck you over anyway, I don't think your bynner buddies would help. I think they'd run the hell away. The NPC soldiers will help, of course, but generally the only people who want to mess with magickers are a templar. Also, if you're a bynner you go outside on contracts a lot. Is it really wise to push on a powerful magicker that might catch you outside the gates someday? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but this is a thing that's up to the individual PC. There's absolutely no problem with not punching magickers at the bar, and I don't think it would be strange for people to think of you as crazy for doing so.

It's just that most people wouldn't visibly offend a gemmer. Almost everyone would cheer on people who beat up a gemmer, but nobody wants to take that first step. A dumb character would beat one up for sure, but that's a rarity.

Right. You can discriminate against them without being suicidal about it. That's where I take issue with people that seem to think discriminating against them = I have to be openly abusive and risk pissing off the tainted one that could turn my children into balls of dung and make my genitals fall off. Against the gemmed, unless you're a templar, I think discrimination would take place in more subtle ways like, slow service, higher prices, moving to sit farther away from them, making gestures or symbols to ward off their taint, etc.

I'd agree that the discrimination would be subtler, but it might also be in reverse. Slow service? Then they're hanging around even longer. Get that stake to them as fast as possible, even if it's only half-cooked, so that they'll eat it and leave! High prices could go either way, as I said. Moving to sit further away has always made sense to me, and the taint-warding gestures for sure.

This is starting to turn into more of a role-play thread then a coded thread. There have been a lot of threads about magickers and how to role-play discrimination (or other aspects of role-play and magickers). Take a look:

Gemmed Treatment and Roleplay v.68468176981435
Poll: Is Red's Retreat socially above gemmers?
Magicker Spawn!
Ask the Staff: Gemmers Again (Updated, Thanks...)
Magick: Power and Place in Armageddon
The Elementalist Quarters - Present and Future

These threads may be more or less helpful on role-play and discrimination against gemmers, but that's not the main point of this thread...

I'd like to focus on would coded discrimination against elves, breeds, gemmers and <non-natives> bring a better flavor component to the game and encourage role-play? Or would it discourage players of those characters?

My answer is that I think if done right, coded discrimination could bring a nice flavor to the game, you just don't want to overdo it.

[jhunter]

My answer is that I think if done right, coded discrimination could bring a nice flavor to the game, you just don't want to overdo it.

I agree. I know that I would enjoy running into this sometimes if I were playing those types of pcs. I know that, like anything else, it is possible to overdo it but I think that if it were done correctly it'd be nice to see.