Coded discrimination

[jhunter]

I was reading over some old threads and came upon this post:

Absolutely agreed. I don't like it at all. Gemmed mages should be hirable by any clan or House. Gemmed mages should be forced to take coded disadvantages, though, like higher prices at stores, a delay in guards opening doors, delayed service at the pub, and stuff like this, to reflect their status. Other players should be freeer to interact with gemmed mages. Sure, one could still look down on mages and those who befriend them, but the extremes we have now are hampering to roleplay, even.

Why not implement this? Not only for gemmers but for elves and half-elves as well?

Say you're playing one of these classes that are coded for discrimination and you go to order something at the local tavern. You might get a message something like:

Code Select Expand

The barkeep glances your way but ignores you while he serves other patrons.
[delay]
Eventually he comes over to you with the following things to offer:
Also take into account the race of the merchant or whatever vs. your own race for pricing. A human merchant will charge more and pay less for goods  if you're a gemmer or elf. An elven merchant might charge a human or gemmer more and pay less but give a better deal to other elves. I think something like this would go a long way in being a constant reminder about ic discrimination.

Edit to add: Also similar coded discrimination if you're a southern pc dealing with merchants up north and vice versa.

[MeTekillot]

As long as it offered a helpful hint to newbies as to why the barkeeps were doing this, I'm game.

[Riev]

Popping in with what is probably going to be the trump card:

Most of this can be roleplayed, as there is nothing stopping you from emoting out getting overcharged, and junking a couple extra coins.

[jhunter]

Except the reason for is that this would be a constant reminder to people of discrimination which many do not roleplay out consistently. It's kinda the whole point. It would also help reinforce it for newer players.

[Lizzie]

1. Gemmers contribute to the profits of the merchant, who is in business for profit, not to serve the greater good.
2. Gemmers exist because they are sanctioned by the templarate. The average merchant would not openly criticize the decisions of the templarate by punishing those who are affected by that decision. By refusing service, raising prices, delaying service, they are making a political statement against the templarate's decision to allow mages to exist, as long as they are marked by said templarate.
3. If you piss off a mage, the mage can curse you and turn your tits into toes, make you infertile, and make a female so fertile that she has to hide from men for the rest of her life or she'll be pregnant 2 days after giving birth. Just by being in the presence of a male of her species (or close facsimile thereof). Until she dies.
4. OOC reason: a lot of people would just stop playing gemmed mages and store if their PCs get gemmed. You'll end up dealing with more rogue mages who everyone and their second cousin complains about, and no one to supply official places with water.

[Riev]

And, again, playing Devil's Advocate... the ones playing particular shunned characters usually have karma granted unto them showing the staff's trust in them (this is, however, perforated by the fact that elf is 0-karma).

I'm not saying I'm not for it, I'm saying why do it if it can be done through roleplay.


ETA: One tiny word makes a world of difference

[Cutthroat]

It's a neat idea at its face, but it assumes a lot about the NPC's relationship with a particular PC, and that the NPC is willing to take the risk of insulting, overcharging, or providing poor service to someone that could respond with an unimaginable amount of power. Should some NPCs be that reckless? Definitely, and that could be handled on a case-by-case basis, especially with random staff animations or scripts for certain NPCs.

I have to agree that this is something best left to individual roleplay, and possession of karma is supposed to prove that the player can handle all aspects of playing a gemmed mage, including the level of discrimination one should come to expect. Players are allowed to emote certain neutral or negative reactions from NPCs or vNPCs and people playing undesirables - not only gemmed, but even those of certain races or clans - should be taking advantage of that allowance.

[SMuz]

4. OOC reason: a lot of people would just stop playing gemmed mages and store if their PCs get gemmed. You'll end up dealing with more rogue mages who everyone and their second cousin complains about, and no one to supply official places with water.

This might actually be a good thing, as there's often more gemmed mages than the population dictates. Magick should be the rarity, instead of 1 in 2 characters.

Popping in with what is probably going to be the trump card:

Most of this can be roleplayed, as there is nothing stopping you from emoting out getting overcharged, and junking a couple extra coins.

Not happy with this either. Code functions as a referee to roleplay. As a character, I'm going to want as low prices as possible, even haggle for it. As a player who wants a character discriminated against, I might want prices higher. As a player who wants his character to succeed or wants to get in character, I'm going to be stuck between the two. There's a bit of an internal conflict there.

And I don't think most discrimination is open, even in Allanak. Like Lizzie said, sometimes the gemmed are with the templarate. And sometimes the gemmed are just richer. It's just better business sense to be nice to the people who have more money so that they may bring back more business.

Think of it this way... if someone in your city were former convicts, how many people would actually kick them out or charge more? Most people keep emotions away from business. One thing I can see is less tolerance to haggling by those shopkeepers, but not much worse.

[jhunter]

Magicker pcs have -never- been as high as 1 in 2. Not even close. The staff have stated that the numbers are pretty good for what they should be. Just wanted to point that out but yes, I agree with that statement there are some people that might not play them if that existed. It wouldn't bother me either way.

[Qzzrbl]

I'd be all for OP's suggestion....

Could also be used for 'Rinthers in the southside, certain races in certain <insert race here> heavy areas.

There are already some places IG that discriminate-- and will flatly refuse service if you're a certain race.... So the whole "Why would so and so turn down good business" is bunked right there.

I mean, really, if a bar makes it a point to be shitty towards gemmers and elves and half-elves, that means there will be less gemmers and elves and half-elves in said establishment, meaning more normal people will wanna go there and spend money.

And as far as templars getting pissed if you're shitty towards a gemmer? That's just silly.

The templarate doesn't gem magickers so they can be buddy-buddy, the templarate gems magickers to keep these valuable tools in check. To a templar, talking down to a magicker shouldn't be any different than talking down to a hammer, and I know I sure as hell wouldn't get in a huff if you yelled at my toolbox all day, because like any normal person I don't name and befriend my screwdriver set.

The common populace (read: NPCs and VNPCs) has been overtly angry and discriminatory towards gemmers before, so it's not as rare as you'd think. Not to mention, most people would know a gemmer would wind up dead pretty quickly if they use magick in public, seeing as how it's very illegal and all.

So yeah....

All for OP's suggestion. Alot of people seem to forget their characters are at the bottom of the social ladder.

[SMuz]

Well, yeah, I could support in those places where gemmers are openly discriminated against. But in some places, like say, the Gaj, discriminating against some of their most common customers seems a bit excessive. Or even in the 'rinth, where that gem indicates that the person is capable of incapacitating them.

Gemmers would probably be severely discriminated against further away from Allanak, so something like that makes sense. As well as southsiders looking to enter the rinth for cheap food and gear and stuff.

If this is used as the exception, rather than the standard, I'd throw in my support for it.

[jhunter]

Right, in my mind it would vary depending on the area and the npc's prewritten personality. I'm not picturing it as something that's just blanketing an entire location. Just to be something that you would run into now and then depending on your race (or being gemmed or 'rinthi) and the location and specific npcs you're interacting with. One barkeep in a city might not care so long as your 'sids are black but another in the same city snubs 'rinthers or elves...etc. One might flat out refuse to serve certain types, another might serve them grudgingly.

[Qzzrbl]

Yeah-- The Gaj? Yeah, gemmers, elves, that's the low-brow commoner scum watering hole. I couldn't imagine Vennant discriminating against refusing coin from anyone there.

[Synthesis]

This is already coded, actually...in at least in one place I can think of (not counting the GMH warehouse "merchants").

It is a touch ironic, the way it's implemented, though.

[Feco]

I also know there are coded 'merchant' benefits to being a certain type of character.

[Taven]

An idea about coded echos for discrimination, and price increases for gemmers, breeds and elves.

I think that a limited amount of this would be a good thing. I say limited because too much and you beat characters who are already at a disadvantage into the ground otherwise. Some of the allure is the way that they're treated, and the challenge of it. However, it can sometimes get to be a little much. Undesirables have severely limited clan options. Open breeds can rarely get into a GMH, but usually can only do the Byn. Gemmers are even worse. If you're playing one, forget about a clan. Elves can always be a sneaky addition to things, but other elves don't trust strange elves, so that's a process. My point is, using this idea for flavor is good, but too much and you'll just make undesirables something that's not very playable.

Popping in with what is probably going to be the trump card:

Most of this can be roleplayed, as there is nothing stopping you from emoting out getting overcharged, and junking a couple extra coins.

Except the reason for is that this would be a constant reminder to people of discrimination which many do not roleplay out consistently. It's kinda the whole point. It would also help reinforce it for newer players.

Honestly, people are way too friendly about this sort of thing. I've seen people openly friendly and defending breeds and gemmers. If they're respected, then others will back off, and soon there's no undesirable hate going on. It's weird to know that virtually you would be hated, scorned and (in the case of a gemmer) possibly feared, but nobody is acting that way. True, you can do your own RP of vNPCs to reinforce hatred against you, but there comes a point when this just gets to be ridiculous.

A good example of something like this is the Gaj. Everyone knows the Gaj is a filthy nasty place, right? Yet you'd routinely get people hanging out like it was normal to sit in white silks (the only Gaj PC in silks is the whore). Sometimes people would try to use vNPCs to try and remind people of the filth, but this would lead to people feeling like they were acting out of turn or simply be ignored. Now, the echoes are sometimes still ignored, but they breathe a ton more life into the place. This was a really nice addition that built the atmosphere of the game, reminding people how an area was and encouraging RP.

1. Gemmers contribute to the profits of the merchant, who is in business for profit, not to serve the greater good.
...
3. If you piss off a mage, the mage can curse you and turn your tits into toes, make you infertile, and make a female so fertile that she has to hide from men for the rest of her life or she'll be pregnant 2 days after giving birth. Just by being in the presence of a male of her species (or close facsimile thereof). Until she dies.
4. OOC reason: a lot of people would just stop playing gemmed mages and store if their PCs get gemmed. You'll end up dealing with more rogue mages who everyone and their second cousin complains about, and no one to supply official places with water.

On one hand, if you charge more, you will get more. If everyone charges gemmers more, then this is normal and everyone makes more money. Merchants could believe that extra coin is needed, because dealing with gemmers is so risky. You COULD get cursed. You'd better get some extra coin for needing to deal with that. On the other hand, you could argue that merchants are afraid of curses and the gemmed. If that's true, why keep the normal price? Maybe they're so scared that to ward off curses they offer a gemmer discounts!

It would vary depending on the NPC, it seems to be. I don't think that implementing a change to prices for very single type of undesirable would be very easy to do.

[stuff]

The common populace (read: NPCs and VNPCs) has been overtly angry and discriminatory towards gemmers before, so it's not as rare as you'd think. Not to mention, most people would know a gemmer would wind up dead pretty quickly if they use magick in public, seeing as how it's very illegal and all.

So yeah....

All for OP's suggestion. Alot of people seem to forget their characters are at the bottom of the social ladder.

I think you're neglecting to take into account the superstitions of the commoners. Yes, commoners have taken actions at and leered at gemmers in the past, but you don't see them burning down elemental temples. Magick is a scary, scary thing. If you push too far, that gemmer might snap. Even if they don't, what about curses? Everyone knows a gemmer can curse you just by looking at you.

Gemmers would probably be severely discriminated against further away from Allanak, so something like that makes sense. As well as southsiders looking to enter the rinth for cheap food and gear and stuff.

How does Luirs view gemmers?

Southsiders in the rinth seems silly to me. If you're not talking with a rinthi accent, it seems to me like there's a much higher chance you're going to get stabbed. Everyone knows that southsiders are rich bastards.

Right, in my mind it would vary depending on the area and the npc's prewritten personality. I'm not picturing it as something that's just blanketing an entire location. Just to be something that you would run into now and then depending on your race (or being gemmed or 'rinthi) and the location and specific npcs you're interacting with. One barkeep in a city might not care so long as your 'sids are black but another in the same city snubs 'rinthers or elves...etc. One might flat out refuse to serve certain types, another might serve them grudgingly.

What sort of spread are you picturing for this? Doing it for everywhere would be too much work, but a couple key places might make it more manageable.

[Qzzrbl]

[stuff]

The common populace (read: NPCs and VNPCs) has been overtly angry and discriminatory towards gemmers before, so it's not as rare as you'd think. Not to mention, most people would know a gemmer would wind up dead pretty quickly if they use magick in public, seeing as how it's very illegal and all.

So yeah....

All for OP's suggestion. Alot of people seem to forget their characters are at the bottom of the social ladder.

I think you're neglecting to take into account the superstitions of the commoners. Yes, commoners have taken actions at and leered at gemmers in the past, but you don't see them burning down elemental temples. Magick is a scary, scary thing. If you push too far, that gemmer might snap. Even if they don't, what about curses? Everyone knows a gemmer can curse you just by looking at you.

True, but what's scarier?

A magicker that could potentially maybe curse you kinda?

Or a smackdown from the Highlord, who you praise and sometimes worship to protect you from such-- who also has a very capable army that you've more than likely personally witnessed be all up in a problem gemmer's shit if they get out of line?

[Marshmellow]

In Luir's it is known publicly that magickers are tolerated so long as they tell a representative of Kurac that they are a magicker.  Wearing a gem counts as telling them.

[Spoon]

I've never liked this "Don't discriminate against that PC, as they could harm you." thing. Everyone can and should be a dick to anyone they please to discriminate against. No one should act with the prior knowledge of consequence without good reason. Why? Because it's missing out on the actual roleplay. Fuck all this virtual bollocks. If your gemmer doesn't like being discriminated against, zap me already. Let your PC learn the hard way because it's FUN.

Also, racism is stupid and ignorant. So let everyone be stupid and ignorant about consequence. This comes up again and again, like people shouldn't be racist towards half-breeds in the Sun Legions. I'll be the judge of that.

[My 2 sids]

I don't quite understand -- players _choose_ to play characters who are known to be feared/hated (any PC that isn't a non-magical human, naturally) but, don't want the fear/hate to be Codedly enforced?!

Look, maybe it isn't worth the time to code all this (although, I'd point to CODED POOP)... but, if you're going to make the argument that the OP isn't logical/ shouldn't be coded then let's re-write the docs to say everyone loves magical/elven/breed PCs and would always treat them as equal or better than regular people.

[NOFUN]

I've never liked this "Don't discriminate against that PC, as they could harm you." thing. Everyone can and should be a dick to anyone they please to discriminate against. No one should act with the prior knowledge of consequence without good reason. Why? Because it's missing out on the actual roleplay. Fuck all this virtual bollocks. If your gemmer doesn't like being discriminated against, zap me already. Let your PC learn the hard way because it's FUN.

Also, racism is stupid and ignorant. So let everyone be stupid and ignorant about consequence. This comes up again and again, like people shouldn't be racist towards half-breeds in the Sun Legions. I'll be the judge of that.

+1

I imagine my wanna be bad ass byner would pick a fight with a magicker in the gaj knowing that
-If the mage attempts to use magick to defends themselves, the templerate will fuck them up.
-In my byners own mind, he's superior to the magicker. Undoubtly, people will surely come to his/her aid if the magicker tries anything.
-My byner is tough as nails, in his/her own mind. Even got the scarring to show for it.
-Publicly humiliating a mage would make my character look so cool in front of his/her byner buddies.

Of course, the magciker is then free to make a fool out of my character. But if we're in a tavern chances are that they will choose not to, as they know they're going to be jumped by half the cities soldiers if they do. Which is something I think people forget, sure. My character isn't going to mouth off to a magicker outside of the walls, that's suicidal. But inside the walls they're powerless. It'd be common knowledge that magick in a city-state is illegal.

[BleakOne]

It seems a lot of beliefs about magickers mean that people think they can harm you without actually casting magick.

Like the superstitions in the docs about your house collapsing into the earth if you meet an angry Rukkian, a singing Viv drains your of moisture, A smile from a Whiran will bring bad luck, ect. The superstitions and so on would make touching such a creature, even to beat them, an unseemly prospect for the bigoted.

[My 2 sids]

It seems a lot of beliefs about magickers mean that people think they can harm you without actually casting magick.

Like the superstitions in the docs about your house collapsing into the earth if you meet an angry Rukkian, a singing Viv drains your of moisture, A smile from a Whiran will bring bad luck, ect. The superstitions and so on would make touching such a creature, even to beat them, an unseemly prospect for the bigoted.

They're a walking jinx!  The Highlord has afflicted them, just because they're _sometimes_ useful or the Templarate has a _little_  control over them doesn't mean their absolutely safe!  Heck, they'll even admit they don't actually study/choose what they do -- it just "happens"

[Marshmellow]

There's a difference between not discriminating against someone and being a dick about it, Sids.  And some of the suggestions here seem to be calling for people to be dicks about it.

And BleakOne, it isn't a superstition.  Magickers CAN do magicks that aren't spells.

[SMuz]

It's just that most people wouldn't visibly offend a gemmer. Almost everyone would cheer on people who beat up a gemmer, but nobody wants to take that first step. A dumb character would beat one up for sure, but that's a rarity. A superstitious one might refuse them service. Most would just not want the trouble. They'd treat them as patrons, and just give them a good bargain so that they buy stuff and leave and don't scare away any of the other patrons.

And discriminating a magicker in the 'rinth is about as insane as giving them shit outside the gates. There's no law in the rinth to keep the magicker from doing what they like. I doubt any shopkeepers in the 'rinth would give gickers shit, as they might be worried about the shop getting blown up or flooded, and the templars wouldn't give a damn about it.

More subtle discrimination, like doubling prices might be more in tune. But if it is so, like what Synthesis said about it already existing, then it's a non-issue, just that people haven't noticed it

[jhunter]

It's just that most people wouldn't visibly offend a gemmer. Almost everyone would cheer on people who beat up a gemmer, but nobody wants to take that first step. A dumb character would beat one up for sure, but that's a rarity.

Right. You can discriminate against them without being suicidal about it. That's where I take issue with people that seem to think discriminating against them = I have to be openly abusive and risk pissing off the tainted one that could turn my children into balls of dung and make my genitals fall off. Against the gemmed, unless you're a templar, I think discrimination would take place in more subtle ways like, slow service, higher prices, moving to sit farther away from them, making gestures or symbols to ward off their taint, etc.

[Taven]

I've never liked this "Don't discriminate against that PC, as they could harm you." thing. Everyone can and should be a dick to anyone they please to discriminate against. No one should act with the prior knowledge of consequence without good reason. Why? Because it's missing out on the actual roleplay. Fuck all this virtual bollocks. If your gemmer doesn't like being discriminated against, zap me already. Let your PC learn the hard way because it's FUN.

Also, racism is stupid and ignorant. So let everyone be stupid and ignorant about consequence. This comes up again and again, like people shouldn't be racist towards half-breeds in the Sun Legions. I'll be the judge of that.

Role-play is what your character would do in a situation. If you're role-playing someone who says exactly what they think to anyone, that's great. But character motivation can be a lot about fear. Why are templars bowed to in the south? Sure, it might be some respect, but you fear them. And yes, you can play a character who spits on a templar, but they get consequences. As a player you know that that gemmer can't do random bad luck curses, but as a PC you may think that that is very real. Punching a gemmer might be dangerous and give you crotch rot. On the other hand, punching a random half-breed who looks like a nobody for fear they may have friends is a little more extreme. I'd say go ahead and punch it. But ultimately it isn't about the fact that everyone can be a dick, it's about a character's individual history and motivations. That may make them punch a gemmer and brawl a breed, or it may make them move down the bar a few stools when either moves in.

I don't quite understand -- players _choose_ to play characters who are known to be feared/hated (any PC that isn't a non-magical human, naturally) but, don't want the fear/hate to be Codedly enforced?!

Look, maybe it isn't worth the time to code all this (although, I'd point to CODED POOP)... but, if you're going to make the argument that the OP isn't logical/ shouldn't be coded then let's re-write the docs to say everyone loves magical/elven/breed PCs and would always treat them as equal or better than regular people.

I think what we're discussing is the level it should be coded, if any. You could very well say "I don't understand why people don't just RP this out more. Why do we need it coded? It should be about the interaction." Will coding discrimination lead to any more interaction and enjoyment for people who play breeds, elves, or gemmers? It depends on the person, but I would argue that the only benefit it has is making other people more aware of the role-play possibilities. Other characters should be discriminating as well, it shouldn't just be a coded thing. Also, if you force anyone to take too many coded and RP'd punishments, they just won't want to play that anymore. Yes, discrimination is great and fun to RP, but a player still wants interaction. The real question is, would coding this make those PCs more fun to play, within the documentation?

I don't mean more fun that everyone gives you gifts and goes around singing your praise, I mean more fun by PC-to-PC interaction, and giving an interesting game flavor. If it doesn't do those things, then it shouldn't be implemented.

I imagine my wanna be bad ass byner would pick a fight with a magicker in the gaj knowing that
-If the mage attempts to use magick to defends themselves, the templerate will fuck them up.
-In my byners own mind, he's superior to the magicker. Undoubtly, people will surely come to his/her aid if the magicker tries anything.
-My byner is tough as nails, in his/her own mind. Even got the scarring to show for it.
-Publicly humiliating a mage would make my character look so cool in front of his/her byner buddies.

Of course, the magciker is then free to make a fool out of my character. But if we're in a tavern chances are that they will choose not to, as they know they're going to be jumped by half the cities soldiers if they do. Which is something I think people forget, sure. My character isn't going to mouth off to a magicker outside of the walls, that's suicidal. But inside the walls they're powerless. It'd be common knowledge that magick in a city-state is illegal.

It seems a lot of beliefs about magickers mean that people think they can harm you without actually casting magick.

Like the superstitions in the docs about your house collapsing into the earth if you meet an angry Rukkian, a singing Viv drains your of moisture, A smile from a Whiran will bring bad luck, ect. The superstitions and so on would make touching such a creature, even to beat them, an unseemly prospect for the bigoted.

I'd like to chime in on this. Magickers are very scary things. That and if a magicker said screw it and decided to fuck you over anyway, I don't think your bynner buddies would help. I think they'd run the hell away. The NPC soldiers will help, of course, but generally the only people who want to mess with magickers are a templar. Also, if you're a bynner you go outside on contracts a lot. Is it really wise to push on a powerful magicker that might catch you outside the gates someday? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but this is a thing that's up to the individual PC. There's absolutely no problem with not punching magickers at the bar, and I don't think it would be strange for people to think of you as crazy for doing so.

It's just that most people wouldn't visibly offend a gemmer. Almost everyone would cheer on people who beat up a gemmer, but nobody wants to take that first step. A dumb character would beat one up for sure, but that's a rarity.

Right. You can discriminate against them without being suicidal about it. That's where I take issue with people that seem to think discriminating against them = I have to be openly abusive and risk pissing off the tainted one that could turn my children into balls of dung and make my genitals fall off. Against the gemmed, unless you're a templar, I think discrimination would take place in more subtle ways like, slow service, higher prices, moving to sit farther away from them, making gestures or symbols to ward off their taint, etc.

I'd agree that the discrimination would be subtler, but it might also be in reverse. Slow service? Then they're hanging around even longer. Get that stake to them as fast as possible, even if it's only half-cooked, so that they'll eat it and leave! High prices could go either way, as I said. Moving to sit further away has always made sense to me, and the taint-warding gestures for sure.

This is starting to turn into more of a role-play thread then a coded thread. There have been a lot of threads about magickers and how to role-play discrimination (or other aspects of role-play and magickers). Take a look:

Gemmed Treatment and Roleplay v.68468176981435
Poll: Is Red's Retreat socially above gemmers?
Magicker Spawn!
Ask the Staff: Gemmers Again (Updated, Thanks...)
Magick: Power and Place in Armageddon
The Elementalist Quarters - Present and Future

These threads may be more or less helpful on role-play and discrimination against gemmers, but that's not the main point of this thread...

I'd like to focus on would coded discrimination against elves, breeds, gemmers and <non-natives> bring a better flavor component to the game and encourage role-play? Or would it discourage players of those characters?

My answer is that I think if done right, coded discrimination could bring a nice flavor to the game, you just don't want to overdo it.

[jhunter]

My answer is that I think if done right, coded discrimination could bring a nice flavor to the game, you just don't want to overdo it.

I agree. I know that I would enjoy running into this sometimes if I were playing those types of pcs. I know that, like anything else, it is possible to overdo it but I think that if it were done correctly it'd be nice to see.