Gate Guards and Subdue

[A very annoyed player]

All right, I've recently had a character die in the absolutely dumbest manner I've ever had one go. I'm no stranger to having a character death by any means, I've had my share of them. But I feel completely robbed with this one. I did something just outside the gates that, unknown to me, makes you wanted. I'd say it was a matter of one second or so from hitting enter on that command, to find myself staring at the mantis head and having ABSOLUTELY no idea what the hell had just happened. I had to scroll back up to even see what had transpired. I became wanted, the gate guards rushed in, the first tried to subdue me, and when he failed, they all attacked and killed my character in a very, very quick manner.  I had no time whatsoever to even THINK about hitting nosave, let alone be able to do it. RP wise this death makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. My character would never even have DREAMED of trying to take on the gate guards, and had no chance to surrender to them. My character had also been around long enough that I would hope some of the immortals would have known his personality enough to know he would have gone peacfully and quietly to jail and sat out his time. This makes no sense at all, and I'm highly disappointed. Perhaps some code could be put in place to *prompt* someone to put in nosave or something? Give them like three seconds and not allow any other commands to go through or something, I don't know....I just know I feel completely robbed with this death. My char died because the gate guard failed his subdue.
Very, very lame.

[Krath]

Hey man,

Something like that happened to me before. Email the mud account with what happened and ask for a ressurection..I know it is very slim, but I am sure they will look into it and hopefully give you a ressurection. Just remember it isnt garunteed.

Krath

[Socko]

While I agree that the death was too quick and unjust, take a look at it from an IC perspective:

You did something illegal while outside of the gates.. within the line of sight of the gate wardens. Likely, they're not going to waste time.. so in the rush of battle, they killed you. It's something they don't have to watch out for- you're outside of the city, you did something illegal, and for all they know you could be running back off into the wastes, or dart into an alleyway.

So in short, they're as brutal as they want to be- and that's more or less what you could see it as, rather than taking the code into account.

I realize, though, that this doesn't in any way make up for the character's voiding- that's something you can strive to avoid with the next character concept, which you can always make three times better than the one you just lost.

[A very annoyed player]

While I agree that the death was too quick and unjust, take a look at it from an IC perspective:

Look at it from an OOC perspective:
The soldiers at least *attempted* to take me peacefully, meaning RP wise I *should* have the opportunity to surrender myself to them, but because the soldiers have their wicked no-delay-for-anything-under-the-sun, I, as a player, had no chance at all to type nosave or anything else thay may have helped in my surrender. I would agree with you completely had they not attempted a more peaceful solution to begin with. But they *tried* to take me in, and my character certainly would have gone peacfully, but code wise...the guard's subdue roll was crappy, or my save was high...or however it works, so my character is dead. RP wise, that soldier would have never failed that subdue, because my character would have given up immediately.
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[Rindan]

It happens.  Armageddon is not a simulation.  It never can be and never will be, pure and simple.  I too have died in exactly the same manner.  Though, I have heard of even worse deaths.  I recall a certain high ranking Borsail was killed because an elf slipped some spice into his clothing.  The criminal code on Armageddon is fickle and unrealistic.  At best, it is a very rough approximation of what should happen.  However, getting pissed off is pointless.  Even the simplest changes take great effort, and changing the criminal code would be by no means simple. It is one of those things you just have to live with until someone musters of the time, patience, and skill it would take to rewrite the criminal code.

That said, I do like the idea of freezing the PC for a couple of seconds from moving and giving them enough time to hit nosave.  If they choose not to nosave, then the guards make their subdue attempt like normal, and if that fails they attack.  Whatever the case, I would make sure that it actually freezes the criminal, or else it would be a simple matter to use that three seconds to simply run past all guards.

[Gar]

I know how you feel.  I fell victim to something which was mostly my fault (I probably should have known what I was doing would make me wanted, although I had done it before without being wanted: kind of a long story).  With three hits that took less than 1 second to transpire, my 20+ day character (with very good fighting skills) bit the dust.  There was no time to blink.  RP-wise I talked to the guard before I did what I did assuring him that I was a good-guy.  The stinky thing is I had my weapon sheathed and my shield was not up.  That might have afforded me a second or two to run out the gate if I had them up but heck, I was a good-guy in the city.  Anyway, I feel for you.  That kind of death is like lightning.  Maybe a second or two of warning would have been nice.

[Anonymous]

However, getting pissed off is pointless.

No one's pissed, I'm just annoyed, and disappointed. And sad....he was about to hit the 30 day mark.

[Gar]

I wonder what you did, if it's not too IC.

This happened over a RL year ago:
I once was hunting along a road south of Tuluk.  There was a HG guard NPC out on the road wandering, as you sometimes see them do (not recently, but I've seen it before).  I passed the guard a few times and then saw a kylori nearby.  I waited for the kylori to come to me, which was next to the guard.  I waited a few moments and then attacked the kylori.  The "you are now wanted" message appeared.  That HG whacked me good and almost killed me.  I ran for the hills and somehow survived.  

After this episode I was quite upset.  I had done nothing that I don't normally do, out hunting something that attacks me regularly.  But the more I thought about it the more I could make it into a fun RP experience.  I have to admit if I had died it wouldn't have been as easy to swallow.  But I RP'ed that the HG was stupid and mistook the kylori for some kind of person (maybe his eyesight was poor).  Anyway, it opened the door for some interesting rp, getting off the wanted list, traveling to the next city to survive, etc.

But again, if I had died due to that incident I wouldn't have had as much fun.

[Another Guest]

Has anyone thought that perhaps having the guards use "mercy on" would be a good idea?  If they used bludgeoning weapons with "mercy on" it would be even better.  Definitely would make getting arrested less lethal.  After knocking out the criminal, the guards could then subdue them and drag them off to jail.  Seems like an easy code change too.

The problem would be when a gortok or something comes to the gates.  You'd want the guard to kill that so it might not work.  Someone else would have to figure that one out.

[Rindan]

Has anyone thought that perhaps having the guards use "mercy on" would be a good idea?  If they used bludgeoning weapons with "mercy on" it would be even better.  Definitely would make getting arrested less lethal.  After knocking out the criminal, the guards could then subdue them and drag them off to jail.  Seems like an easy code change too.

The problem would be when a gortok or something comes to the gates.  You'd want the guard to kill that so it might not work.  Someone else would have to figure that one out.

You know, that is a great idea.  If mercy is on, and they have a code to subdue you after they beat you to a pulp, that would solve a lot of problems.  Still make it so that some offenses do not result in mercy.  I imagine that delfier magik in particular would be a good reason to get the mercy flag removed.  The flag could also be removed by a templar for certain people they just want them dead.  Animals and the like would also receive no mercy.  Of course, the big question mark is if it is codeable.  If it is though, it would be an excellent solution in my opinion.

[Lazloth]

I imagine that delfier magik in particular would be a good reason to get the mercy flag removed.  The flag could also be removed by a templar for certain people they just want them dead

One pitfall with the crimcode as sits currently, is, as you mentioned, the unability to distinguish black from white.  You're either wanted or not, and obviously that is a severe limitation.  IMHO, Zalanthan justice would benefit from a Grand Theft Auto-type set of wanted levels, where a situation like the aforementioned noble caught with spice would not ellicit much of a reprimand.  Lesser offenses would not necessitate guards scouring the city looking for the criminal, and if caught, would probably not result in insta-subdue.  Who knows.

Back to the original topic, the difficulty with guards not pulling the insta-subdue tactic is that players will all-of-the-sudden be granted another loop to twink and skirt.  There was a decent suggestion some weeks back on the GDB (noresist) that effectively called for a new toggle specifically relating to justice.  I still think this was a great idea, and would nudge the original poster to doctor it up and send to the mud@ginka address if such has not been done.

[The Archbishop]

I'm sure they're has been plenty of people that have lost chars to the law code. I know I have in the past, to things like the given failed subdue, pull weapons with no delay and get 4-6 attacks off before I can blink. I know it wasn't like that before and it was probably because you saw dead soldiers all over the place. So due to twinks who would kill and sell the cuirbouilli for money the soldiers were beefed up and made rediculous. I've combated a single soldier with a 30+ day warrior and was getting beat, It does help and it hinders alot, especially if you want to play a criminal. I just wanted to throw my say in.

-The Archbishop

[spawnloser]

I have lost a character to crim-code.  Wanna know what I was told?  If you're going to do something that will result in you being wanted, type 'nosave on' before doing it...just in case.

[Bestatte]

That's all well and good Spawnloser, but if the "offense" occurs outside the city, and typing "stat" doesn't show that you are wanted, you have no way of knowing that you did something "arrestable" via the code until you've already been subdued.

Case in point - one of my characters did something out in the desert somewhere. And ended the activity right outside a village near a city, but not in the city.

Left the area when a gate guard gave her a hard time, and managed to walk right through the city gate without any problems whatsoever.

It was only after she was already well inside the city that an NPC just suddenly subdued her, and I had no idea how to stop trying to fight back, because I didn't understand all this about save/nosave stuff.

Obviously she died, and there wasn't a thing I could do about it.

Granted, she probably would've died anyway, which is whyI didn't make all that much of a fuss. But at the time, I thought it was a bug and wished up and even e-mailed about it and never did get a response.

[spawnloser]

Well, understood, not everyone knows about save/nosave and there's no way of knowing if you're wanted or not.  In real life, does anyone tell if they're reporting you to the authorities?  No, they don't.  Unfortunately, that's how it works.  You never know.  If you've done something illegal and don't want to get chopped into bite-sized pieces by the gate guards type 'nosave on.'  I'm not saying anyone should have known this...I'm just putting it out there for everyone to consider.  If you don't like this solution, go ahead and complain, but I really don't think that the Imms will be doing anything to change how it works.

[Grabbed by the guards]

How about this for a death.

My character gets exhiled from the city so it flees to Red Storm. On its way to Tuluk, the rider it was following took it very close to the gates. When the character was in Red Storm there was no "Wanted in Allanak" in my stat so I didn't think anything of it. Until the gate guards came.  To top it off, it had been over a week since I had put in a describe change and it still hadn't come through so I, the player, was really pissed. And it turned out to be one of the best deaths I've had.

If anyone has played a while they know that the guards attack anything outside the gates, haven't we seen gortok or scrab get too close and heard the guards say "Away from the gates, scum!" or something to that effect?

Consider this a warning, don't do anything stupid around guards unless you're wanting to get caught.

[Dracul]

Get this. the time I was killed by the gate guards I didn't even know what the hell happened. It happened so fast my client didn't even register it to the screen.

I had actually bumped a macro key...walked past the street I meant to turn down, and passed a gate guard with something I shouldn't have.
Beep. I think WTF several times, and when I try to log on it says I'm dead.

I had to log off, and look in the logs to find out the guards killed me. It was cool in a way, but...realy sucked in every other way.

[creeper386]

Well, I was scooting about one day, came acrossed a covered hole, I opened it up and being the curious person I was I crawled in. Well for a few seconds I see the room description that says I'm in a well, which wasn't mentioned in the previous room... Lets just say for a split second I saw something flash by that I fell... Saw another room description... And then the mantis head, didn't have time to read anything really.

Sure, it has NOTHING to do with gate guards instakilling, but in a way some of these stories don't either, besides they experienced it.

I think the best way, is to split the nosave into different things. As I know some people that would instantly surrender to the authorities no matter what, especially if they know it was by mistake they are being accused... But walking around with nosave off all the time can be VERY dangerous, have had city characters that might have people trying to subdue them or some other thing, so didn't want nosave on... But also would never resist the militia and would likely run into them, so didn't want to leave it off all the time. It's quite annoying.

Creeper

[Bestatte]

Well, understood, not everyone knows about save/nosave and there's no way of knowing if you're wanted or not.  In real life, does anyone tell if they're reporting you to the authorities?  No, they don't.  Unfortunately, that's how it works.  You never know.  If you've done something illegal and don't want to get chopped into bite-sized pieces by the gate guards type 'nosave on.'  I'm not saying anyone should have known this...I'm just putting it out there for everyone to consider.  If you don't like this solution, go ahead and complain, but I really don't think that the Imms will be doing anything to change how it works.

In real life, if the law of the City says anyone carrying a firearm is to be shot on sight, and you carry a firearm out in the wilderness and not in the city, then in real life, no crime is being committed and you get to live.

In the game, no one in the city saw me "carrying the firearm" so to speak. And the gate guards let me in, I didn't sneak, I wasn't invisible or hiding, I just walked right through the gate. That's why I thought it was a bug; because I had no reason to think that I had done anything "wrong" according to the laws of that city, since no one tried to stop me on the way in. It was an iffy situation though, but it's IC stuff so I can't go into details. But basically I assumed I was gonna die before I even got to the gate in the first place. Once I made it past though, I changed my opinion and assessed that the coast was clear. And not having time to even -think- about the nosave thing with a guard several blocks away, well inside the gates, just made it one of those "WTF!" things for me.

[Rindan]

Seeing as how guards do not respond to drawn weapons, I can only imagine that you were doing magik of some sort.  If that is the 'firearm' you were talking about, and by a quirk of code it didn't get you wanted, it was probably an imm correcting the situtation tha you were floating three feat above the ground and no one was responding.  If the gate guards do not respond, but guards inside the city do, unless you did something to provok the guards, I would guess it was an imm correcting an inaccuracy.

[God]

Would it be possible to make some sort of toggle so you don't resist city guards at all? Like that noresist idea I heard mentioned?

Nosave on is a bit too dangerous to leave on all the time... and I'm often an absent-minded person and forget to switch back and forth. It's sad that there have been so many deaths on technicalities, really.

[Krath]

Would it be possible to make some sort of toggle so you don't resist city guards at all? Like that noresist idea I heard mentioned?

Nosave on is a bit too dangerous to leave on all the time... and I'm often an absent-minded person and forget to switch back and forth. It's sad that there have been so many deaths on technicalities, really.

That was seriously the sweetest Idea I have heard. Two thumbs up and it has my vote

[spawnloser]

I like this idea...submit it.

[jhunter]

I totally think the noresist idea is a great one, it's got my vote.

There are -usually- two types of people as far as the law is concerned: those that will always submit to the whims of the law out of fear for their lives,(even if they don't necessarly agree with it) and those that will not and will fight to the death to resist in a given situation.(Those that consider themselves patriots perhaps.)

I've had chars that wouldn't give in to anyone else, but would always give in to the militia of a city if they were in trouble for something...because not to means -certain- death.(Well almost certain now that I think about it, there was one instance that I experienced which contradicted it.)

I think that something like the noresist thing would be very good, I just have to wonder if it would be hard to code since it's not already in the game...