Languages and Character Creation

[musashi]

Since we all have a lot to say about this topic in particular why don't we route the conversation here and stop derailing the random tiny code wants thread?

My thoughts on language go something like this:

I don't like that to be part of a human tribe you have to take the nomad subguild but desert elves can subguild freely. I wish the human race were split into city humans and tribal humans much like elves are in order to remedy this problem.

I don't like that half-elves have to start with sirihish being more fluent than allundean. I wish that they could select which one was dominant during chargen just like they can select which racial aspect is dominant currently.

I don't like that the linguist subguild gives you a stock set of languages. I wish you could pick three from a list of say, bendune, cavalish, allundean, and however you spell the dwarven one.

[Anaiah]

Since we all have a lot to say about this topic in particular why don't we route the conversation here and stop derailing the random tiny code wants thread?

My thoughts on language go something like this:

I don't like that to be part of a human tribe you have to take the nomad subguild but desert elves can subguild freely. I wish the human race were split into city humans and tribal humans much like elves are in order to remedy this problem.

To randomly address part of this:
You only need to pick nomad subguild if you are part of an UNCODED human tribe. As an Al'Seik or Arabet, you can choose a different subguild. Much the same, ALL desert elves belong to a coded tribe. No need for the rule there.

Just sayin'.

[musashi]

Since we all have a lot to say about this topic in particular why don't we route the conversation here and stop derailing the random tiny code wants thread?

My thoughts on language go something like this:

I don't like that to be part of a human tribe you have to take the nomad subguild but desert elves can subguild freely. I wish the human race were split into city humans and tribal humans much like elves are in order to remedy this problem.

To randomly address part of this:
You only need to pick nomad subguild if you are part of an UNCODED human tribe. As an Al'Seik or Arabet, you can choose a different subguild. Much the same, ALL desert elves belong to a coded tribe. No need for the rule there.

Just sayin'.

*gasp* I did not know that!

[Yam]

If you set up your application to a human tribe through the staff they will get you as a coded tribe member, give you the necessary tattoos, and give you Bendune/the tribal accent. It's now an option in the request tool, I believe.

[Cutthroat]

I personally have suggested before (and other people have suggested as well) that the linguist subguild lets you pick one or two languages out of allundean, mirukkim, and bendune. Since picking bendune wouldn't give the tribal accent, virtual tribe PCs would still have to pick nomad, but having the choice makes sense for a lot of reasons. Although many people would probably pick two languages, there is the option of picking just one for background reasons.

However, I don't care for cavilish that much. The docs suggest that cavilish is a more exclusive language than it appears to be in game, restricted mainly to merchant house family members, and yet every guild_merchant and their mother can speak it. While I wish cavilish would be something exclusively granted to sponsored-app GMH members, for them to teach to trusted employees and little else, it doesn't seem like something the staff would be willing to do at this point, when everyone is used to having it and not necessarily using it for business reasons.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Only if you focus on the current use part of the help file alone. If you refer to the history of it, it was a common thing for dune traders, and is closely related to bendune. It is entirely feasible for someone who is a trader to know it. Although I would, I admit, never want to see it on someone who had no ability to haggle. And if you look, the ability to haggle without it will always be lower than the ability to haggle with it. This is reflective of the situation in a realistic way. It's entirely feasible that if you've done enough trading you would have picked up on it, but it's unlikely anyone but a merchant or trader would have. Which is why it's not given with the linguist subguild (at least in part). If it was intended that it be nearly impossible for pcs who were not GMH members to know it, it wouldn't be one of the given skills for a guild.

[Cutthroat]

Only if you focus on the current use part of the help file alone. If you refer to the history of it, it was a common thing for dune traders, and is closely related to bendune. It is entirely feasible for someone who is a trader to know it. Although I would, I admit, never want to see it on someone who had no ability to haggle. And if you look, the ability to haggle without it will always be lower than the ability to haggle with it. This is reflective of the situation in a realistic way. It's entirely feasible that if you've done enough trading you would have picked up on it, but it's unlikely anyone but a merchant or trader would have. Which is why it's not given with the linguist subguild (at least in part). If it was intended that it be nearly impossible for pcs who were not GMH members to know it, it wouldn't be one of the given skills for a guild.

I'm fine with that explanation (although what I pulled out from the docs references the current state of things, there is an 11 year old copyright on that page as well); I just don't want it to be a choice if people who pick linguist are then given a choice to pick languages. I'm trying to say cavilish shouldn't be made more attainable with any changes to subguild_linguist.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'm trying to say cavilish shouldn't be made more attainable with any changes to subguild_linguist.

Then I agree with you whole-heartedly, after some thought. A year or two ago, I might have said different, but the longer you're involved, the more perspective you get. That's actually what I meant when I said above that I didn't think it should be accessible to someone without haggle. Bendune, yes, I could see. Cavilish, not so much. It's much more specialized.

[Taven]

I don't like that half-elves have to start with sirihish being more fluent than allundean. I wish that they could select which one was dominant during chargen just like they can select which racial aspect is dominant currently.

I agree with this.

I personally have suggested before (and other people have suggested as well) that the linguist subguild lets you pick one or two languages out of allundean, mirukkim, and bendune. Since picking bendune wouldn't give the tribal accent, virtual tribe PCs would still have to pick nomad, but having the choice makes sense for a lot of reasons. Although many people would probably pick two languages, there is the option of picking just one for background reasons.

However, I don't care for cavilish that much. The docs suggest that cavilish is a more exclusive language than it appears to be in game, restricted mainly to merchant house family members, and yet every guild_merchant and their mother can speak it. While I wish cavilish would be something exclusively granted to sponsored-app GMH members, for them to teach to trusted employees and little else, it doesn't seem like something the staff would be willing to do at this point, when everyone is used to having it and not necessarily using it for business reasons.

I support this idea.

[HavokBlue]

I agree with the breed allundean thing. As it stands, it's pretty much impossible to play an elf-looking breed that passes for an elf among elves out of char-gen.

[musashi]

I agree with the breed allundean thing. As it stands, it's pretty much impossible to play an elf-looking breed that passes for an elf among elves out of char-gen.

In all fairness it might be possible to ask the staff to switch the languages for you at chargen, which may or may not require a special app, but meh ... it would be nice if it were something you could do automatically.

[hyzhenhok]

I agree with the breed allundean thing. As it stands, it's pretty much impossible to play an elf-looking breed that passes for an elf among elves out of char-gen.

In all fairness it might be possible to ask the staff to switch the languages for you at chargen, which may or may not require a special app, but meh ... it would be nice if it were something you could do automatically.

It would be just as conspicuous if you're trying to pass as a city elf but can't speak fluent sirihish.

You could probably use a special app to get fluent allundean on a half-elf without having to switch them, actually. In fact, there's probably a lot of neat stuff you can do with special apps on this front in terms of getting your breed PC some abilities they won't come with by default.

[Cindy42]

are there possible ways to special app for knowing nkrizt and the mantis language, and rarer languages like that, or are unplayable races' languages no longer an option to know for your regular city grebber who may have been a prisoner of the mantises for a few years in their backgrounds? what about the halfling language? i think it would be awesome for the occasional person to know even at apprentice or journeyman a very rare language due to past circumstances at the creation of their character. they could even give lessons for money. i thought about special-apping for this, but was sure i'd be rejected.

bards learn new languages faster? what about linguists? or do linguists simply know the three main languages and have no other abilities?

[musashi]

Um ... the mantis and the halflings don't really keep you prisoner so much as eat you. If you were kept as a prisoner it would probably only be till that particular evening meal, not really enough time to pick up a language.

I'm sure that if you had a fitting story you might be able to spec-app with some of the rarer languages, but "I was held captive" is probably not going to fly given that theme wise, those races are extremely unlikely to take prisoners they don't intend to devour in short order.

Bards learn new languages faster, yes. That's why it says so in their help file. No idea about linguists though.

[SMuz]

It would be just as conspicuous if you're trying to pass as a city elf but can't speak fluent sirihish.

It makes more sense for a half-desert elf.

[Marshmellow]

As it stands, you can realistically pose as an elf to another elf be that elf of the city OR desert variety because of the language issue.

Something said that causes me to really wonder, though, is someone saying that city elves are fluent in both Allundean and Sirihish.  If they are, why aren't half-elves?  It makes no sense to me that city elves are fluent in two languages while half-elves are not.

[boog]

Bards learn new languages faster, yes. That's why it says so in their help file. No idea about linguists though.

Though it'd be pretty stupid if they didn't, I think. :<